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Posted: 7/29/2015 1:24:38 PM EDT
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Well, I just complete my first AR build. So far, I am VERY happy with it. Sub MOA even before breaking in the barrel with Wolf Gold. Smooth recoil and very accurate, sounds good to me.
but their is a problem..... Problem 1: when charging the gun. Its not very smooth and has a burning smell, even with CLP in it. I have no idea what is causing that. It did it since day one. Its not powder or anything. I guess its friction. Problem 2: I had a very bad jam. The round got stuck inside the upper like this shotgun round did https://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/raac-ar-15-shotgun-toothandnailarmory-jam.jpg but it was on the inside. The shotgun round is farther out than my jam, my round stayed inside the upper. I had to drop the mag and shake the crap out of the gun and finally after a love tap on the upper, it dropped out. The charging handle did nothing and I couldn't disassemble it cause the BCG was in the buffer tube. What caused this jam and whats the proper way to clear this? If I was on a hunt or close to an angry boar, I would have no recourse for defense. Is this the BCG fault? I have had some failure to feed but that may be the mag. |
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First, the smell is normal for a new gun. It's a combination of friction and "shear" in the lube. It'll go away soon.
Second, your jam sounds like the empty didn't clear the receiver, and either the carrier failed to go far enough back to strip a new round, or it did and the fresh round was stuck in there too. Both the jam and your description of the "not very smooth" feel when you charge the gun point to a lube issue. New parts are NOT lubricated. They are coated with a preservative/anti-corrosion material that sucks as a gun lube. I always strip parts (brake cleaner, Slick 2000's 725 Degreaser, etc.) before I assemble them, and I lube them liberally. New parts also need to wear in with each other, so they tend to need more lube for a while. If you keep the carrier and FCG really wet, it will break in more easily. Good luck! |
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First, the smell is normal for a new gun. It's a combination of friction and "shear" in the lube. It'll go away soon. Second, your jam sounds like the empty didn't clear the receiver, and either the carrier failed to go far enough back to strip a new round, or it did and the fresh round was stuck in there too. Both the jam and your description of the "not very smooth" feel when you charge the gun point to a lube issue. New parts are NOT lubricated. They are coated with a preservative/anti-corrosion material that sucks as a gun lube. I always strip parts (brake cleaner, Slick 2000's 725 Degreaser, etc.) before I assemble them, and I lube them liberally. New parts also need to wear in with each other, so they tend to need more lube for a while. If you keep the carrier and FCG really wet, it will break in more easily. Good luck! Well, how can I clear a jam like I stated? |
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I've never experienced this type of malfunction, but if it was a casing that was not extracted entirely, the charging handle still should have been able to engage the bcg enough to pull it further back into the buffer tube? I just looked at a spent casing and the comparison of how much length is left to pull the BCG back into the locked position. I have had a round become jammed into the chamber by riding the CH forward. It was a pain to clear and was a mistake only made once.
As stated above, I would ensure all surfaces and anticorrosion additives removed and all parts lubed well. Maybe you experienced a heat and expansion issue briefly? I cant really see that being the case but maybe a possibility? ETA : What type of charging handle are you running??? If just a normal milspec CH. maybe moving to something you can get a little more torque onto like a BCM Mod3 or a raptor? I know I got used to the BCM mod 3 and just got an upper built with a PRI GB CH and I had to relearn where to pull from as odd as that sounds. I have to push into the Charging handle much more than back it feels sometimes.Maybe im a wuss, but it is what it is. |
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I'd lock the bolt carrier to the rear, drop the mag and shake out the empty.
Make sure your ejector has plenty of tension. It should take some significant force to depress. Like said above, lube it liberally and put at least a couple hundred rounds through it before getting too concerned. Now if you encounter this malfunction every mag, something is wrong. |
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I've never experienced this type of malfunction, but if it was a casing that was not extracted entirely, the charging handle still should have been able to engage the bcg enough to pull it further back into the buffer tube? I just looked at a spent casing and the comparison of how much length is left to pull the BCG back into the locked position. I have had a round become jammed into the chamber by riding the CH forward. It was a pain to clear and was a mistake only made once. As stated above, I would ensure all surfaces and anticorrosion additives removed and all parts lubed well. Maybe you experienced a heat and expansion issue briefly? I cant really see that being the case but maybe a possibility? ETA : What type of charging handle are you running??? If just a normal milspec CH. maybe moving to something you can get a little more torque onto like a BCM Mod3 or a raptor? I know I got used to the BCM mod 3 and just got an upper built with a PRI GB CH and I had to relearn where to pull from as odd as that sounds. I have to push into the Charging handle much more than back it feels sometimes.Maybe im a wuss, but it is what it is. I am running a Mod 3. When I pulled on the charging handle, it did nothing. Just slid forward and back. denny and Schive. I did clear the gun, but had to use a piece of wood down the mag well to pull the bcg back and relieve tension off the round. I just coated the BCG with a TON of Brakefree CLP and hope that fixed it. If it wasnt for the dowel I had, their would be no possible way for me to clear the round. |
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I couldn't open the link, but the malf sounds like it could very well be mag related. I had a bad jam when I first started shooting AR's and I was using crappy mags. I didn't think they were crappy, but they were. I forget which mag it was exactly though. I think it was a Colt 7 rounder that came with my first AR. Or maybe it was a 9 rounder. It had a plastic bottom that went part of the way up the mag and was horizontally flat.
I stick with just USGI mags now. I've yet to buy any magpul ones, but they're supposed to be gtg too. And a few others. But it's best to stick with USGI mags and go from there. |
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denny and Schive. I did clear the gun, but had to use a piece of wood down the mag well to pull the bcg back and relieve tension off the round. I just coated the BCG with a TON of Brakefree CLP and hope that fixed it. If it wasnt for the dowel I had, their would be no possible way for me to clear the round. That sounds like the "FY jam", where a cartridge gets stuck above the bolt, between the bolt and the charging handle. Usually a bad magazine. If it's an empty case, extractor or possibly ejector problem. It is possible to clear one of those with forceful manipulation of the charging handle, but using a tool to retract the bolt is a lot easier and less risk of damaging something. |
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That sounds like the "FY jam", where a cartridge gets stuck above the bolt, between the bolt and the charging handle. Usually a bad magazine. If it's an empty case, extractor or possibly ejector problem. It is possible to clear one of those with forceful manipulation of the charging handle, but using a tool to retract the bolt is a lot easier and less risk of damaging something. Quoted:
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denny and Schive. I did clear the gun, but had to use a piece of wood down the mag well to pull the bcg back and relieve tension off the round. I just coated the BCG with a TON of Brakefree CLP and hope that fixed it. If it wasnt for the dowel I had, their would be no possible way for me to clear the round. That sounds like the "FY jam", where a cartridge gets stuck above the bolt, between the bolt and the charging handle. Usually a bad magazine. If it's an empty case, extractor or possibly ejector problem. It is possible to clear one of those with forceful manipulation of the charging handle, but using a tool to retract the bolt is a lot easier and less risk of damaging something. It sounds like a bolt over jam. One of the tools out there is the Mutt multi tool but it is not a cheap tool. Then there is the very hard way sticking two fingers in there to clear the jam. |
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That and the barrel break in comment. Quoted:
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i stopped reading at sub-moa with Wolf Gold.  That and the barrel break in comment. My groups were abount .9in (measured with calipers) and I have read that Black Hole Barrels do get better accuracy after a bit of a break in but this is all off topic. |
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No, it was a spent case that Im guessing didnt extract and stayed on the BCG and got stuck on the barrel lugs or something else. I just tried to recreate it with a spent case but wasnt able to. As for mags, I using 20rd PMAGS so idk about quality. All my buddies use PMAGS and they feed fine but I have had some failure to feed and other mag probs. |
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That's what I had early on with the crappy mags. Took a screwdriver to get it out. A spent casing is entirely different. Extraction is the problem. Whether it be out of spec brass, a dirty chamber, a burr in your chamber, or a weak extractor. You may need the beefed up o ring. Or it could be as simple as giving your chamber a scrub. Maybe some built up film of something from being new. I don't know. I have less experience with that kind of a malf. |
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So like this : http://i441.photobucket.com/albums/qq134/j200pruf/AR%20Stuff/FtE01_2-12-12.jpg YEP. thats pretty much it. |
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My groups were abount .9in (measured with calipers) and I have read that Black Hole Barrels do get better accuracy after a bit of a break in but this is all off topic. Quoted:
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i stopped reading at sub-moa with Wolf Gold. That and the barrel break in comment. My groups were abount .9in (measured with calipers) and I have read that Black Hole Barrels do get better accuracy after a bit of a break in but this is all off topic. At 100 yards? |
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My groups were abount .9in (measured with calipers) and I have read that Black Hole Barrels do get better accuracy after a bit of a break in but this is all off topic. Quoted:
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i stopped reading at sub-moa with Wolf Gold. That and the barrel break in comment. My groups were abount .9in (measured with calipers) and I have read that Black Hole Barrels do get better accuracy after a bit of a break in but this is all off topic. Wolf Gold is great ammo, but it is not sub-MOA regardless of the barrel that it leaves. |
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So, if I'm looking at it right, that's just a failure to extract. This can be from a few things- chamber is too tight (or dirty), extractor spring is too weak, or the timing of your rifle is off. To fix, try these three things in this order:
1. Scrub the hell out of your chamber with a chamber brush, and lube it up before going shooting again. Then shoot the hell out of your gun to break it in, using a variety of ammo to see what works best. Expect a few more stuck cases, and take along a wooden or steel dowel as close to .223 diameter to knock out those cases just in case. 2. If that doesn't make a difference, buy something like this http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Extractor-Spring-Uprade-Kit-p/bcm%20extractor%20spring%20upgrade.htm. This'll make sure your extractor won't hop the rim anymore. 3. If that doesn't make a difference, fiddle around with buffer weights. Maybe you're a bit overgassed, making the BCG move rearward before the pressure in the chamber has dropped. If you increase the mass moving rearward (increasing buffer weight), it'll delay that movement for just a couple milliseconds until after that pressure has dropped. If that fails, send it back and tell them to give you a refund. Steel cases getting stuck is one thing, but brass cases getting stuck on a broken-in rifle is unacceptable. |
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Well, I just complete my first AR build. So far, I am VERY happy with it. Sub MOA even before breaking in the barrel with Wolf Gold. Smooth recoil and very accurate, sounds good to me. but their is a problem..... Problem 1: when charging the gun. Its not very smooth and has a burning smell, even with CLP in it. I have no idea what is causing that. It did it since day one. Its not powder or anything. I guess its friction. Problem 2: I had a very bad jam. The round got stuck inside the upper like this shotgun round did https://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/raac-ar-15-shotgun-toothandnailarmory-jam.jpg but it was on the inside. The shotgun round is farther out than my jam, my round stayed inside the upper. I had to drop the mag and shake the crap out of the gun and finally after a love tap on the upper, it dropped out. The charging handle did nothing and I couldn't disassemble it cause the BCG was in the buffer tube. What caused this jam and whats the proper way to clear this? If I was on a hunt or close to an angry boar, I would have no recourse for defense. Is this the BCG fault? I have had some failure to feed but that may be the mag. My preference for clearing jams of the kind your describe, including undersized rounds stuck in the chamber, its to bring a small mallet to the range with me. Unlatch the charge handle and pull it back as far as possible, then while holding it back, tap on its right hand side with the mallet until the carrier comes back and is locked. Then the stuck cartridge and be shaken loose. You performed essentially the same thing with your wooden pry bar through the mag well. Either method is safer and easier on the rifle than banging the butt on the ground. Finally, I recommend you do not use CLP as your primary lubricant. Its a compromise between a cleaning solvent, rust preventative and lube. Instead, buy a quart of Mobil 1 10W-30 motor oil to lubricate your bolt and carrier and reserve the CLP for cleaning duties. It helps if you smooth the contact surfaces on your carrier, using 400 through 800 sandpaper. Also, if your rifle will deliver sub-MOA accuracy with Wolf Gold ammo, that is amazing. Its not an easy accomplishment with match ammo, much less Wolf Gold. Please share a 100-yard, 10-round group to squelch the sceptics. good luck - CW |
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I understand this to be a one time situation. In the absence of a repeat, it is extremely difficult to diagnose, and in the absence of a repeat, attempting to diagnose is a waste of time.
Clean chamber, lube BCG well and just shoot the rifle. If the problem persists, then chase it. As to sub MOA, show us a ten consecutive shot 100 yard sub-MOA group, or it does not count. Three shot groups are more luck than precision. 5 shot groups are better, but only if they are consistent, time after time. Ten consecutive shots are, IMHO, the standard to call a rifle truly sub MOA. And Wolf Gold ain't sub MOA ammo in any barrel. |
I don't know about Wolf Gold, but for some reason I used to get this wally world 40 round value pack 55 grain FMJ. And I swear it shot like match ammo. And it was cheap. I think God floated it down for me to have fun.... I still have about 15 rounds of it left. But I'm like saving it for a special occasion.
Yes, that's 100 yards. And yes, both those groups are 5 rounds. 
Not too shabby for a cheap load. I've got more pics of different times that show my gun liking that ammo. Snapfish changed their format and I'm having to download these back to my computer, into photobucket and then post. So it takes time. All my point is that sometimes cheap ammo can shoot better than it really should. I have no clue if the claim is true or not. But that's why I'm not jumping all over him. My skeptic meter usually starts going crazy if someone claims they do this with irons and cheaper ammo. Or an aimpoint. Or offhand. Or something silly like that. For me to ever shoot really good groups, I need a good amount of magnification (probably above 4x), and a really really good rest. When I've shot for groups I usually go prone on the concrete with bags on front and back. Those above were actually with a bipod on front and a bag on the rear. You never know, maybe he can do it. It would be nice to see his claims though. My guess is he might be shooting 3 round groups. And CLP no good for lube? That's a new one on me. I've only ever used CLP and never had any problems. That jam that I discussed here is the only time I've ever seen one. Well actually I did have one another time and I think it was a popped primer somewhere in the action, locking it up. |
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YEP. thats pretty much it. Quoted:
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So like this : http://i441.photobucket.com/albums/qq134/j200pruf/AR%20Stuff/FtE01_2-12-12.jpg YEP. thats pretty much it. That's basically a Failure To Extract. Others have already posted on ways to address it but, to clear it if it ever happens again, lock the bolt to the rear, strip the mag, rack the charging handle till it extracts. If that doesn't work, collapse the buttstock and hold the rifle vertically with the muzzle pointed up. Then slam the buttstock onto a hard surface while putting rearward pressure on the charging handle. If that doesn't work, then you definitely have to use use a cleaning rod or dowel rod through inserted through the muzzle end. |
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That picture looks like the case is extracted, bit not ejected.
Extracted means "pulled out of the chamber." Ejected means "propelled out of the weapon." This could be a combination issue. If the extractor can pull the case out, but doesn't hold it while it clears the barrel extension, the ejector can't toss it out. That's not "failure to extract," but it's related to the extractor. First, make sure the extractor moves easily against spring pressure, and then make sure there's plenty of spring pressure. You might try adding a Viton O-ring (you can get them here for dirt cheap) to the extractor spring to ensure positive extractor retention of the case. If it's a one-off failure, the O-ring won't hurt. If it's an intermittent thing, it may not show up again. As for clearing this sort of jam, I agree with Gamma that using a tool to force the bolt back far enough to un-jam the loose case is the preferable way to proceed. I have a couple of gadgets in my range bag that could be used for this sort of thing. I also keep several GI cleaning rod segments in my bag for the possibility of stuck cases, and a bottle of gun oil.... It's not just a Boy Scout thing to Be Prepared! 
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| Ditch the o ring around your extractor spring and try again. it'll never happen again. You can put it back eventually if it makes you feel better. Try it before you dismiss it. I've only had one rifle do this and it ran like a top after pitching that phoney upgrade that now seems to come standard on bcgs. |
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Ditch the o ring around your extractor spring and try again. it'll never happen again. You can put it back eventually if it makes you feel better. Try it before you dismiss it. I've only had one rifle do this and it ran like a top after pitching that phoney upgrade that now seems to come standard on bcgs. He did not have a ring. He did have issues with the extractor keeping the case on the bolt. Trying an O-ring can't hurt. If your "phoney" upgrade was not actually Viton, it wouldn't work properly anyway. I tried plain plumbers' #60 O-rings; they took a set, and actually got in the way of the extractor functioning. If you spend a little money (the link I posted is 5 for 22ยข) and get the proper part, the worst it can do is nothing. |
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He did not have a ring. He did have issues with the extractor keeping the case on the bolt. Trying an O-ring can't hurt. If your "phoney" upgrade was not actually Viton, it wouldn't work properly anyway. I tried plain plumbers' #60 O-rings; they took a set, and actually got in the way of the extractor functioning. If you spend a little money (the link I posted is 5 for 22ยข) and get the proper part, the worst it can do is nothing. Quoted:
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Ditch the o ring around your extractor spring and try again. it'll never happen again. You can put it back eventually if it makes you feel better. Try it before you dismiss it. I've only had one rifle do this and it ran like a top after pitching that phoney upgrade that now seems to come standard on bcgs. He did not have a ring. He did have issues with the extractor keeping the case on the bolt. Trying an O-ring can't hurt. If your "phoney" upgrade was not actually Viton, it wouldn't work properly anyway. I tried plain plumbers' #60 O-rings; they took a set, and actually got in the way of the extractor functioning. If you spend a little money (the link I posted is 5 for 22ยข) and get the proper part, the worst it can do is nothing. I've never put them on, they come standard now on many bcgs, it is a phoney upgrade and I don't remember reading that his didn't have one. With a fresh build, the chances are high that he does. And finally. Relax bro, just trying to help. With so many people saying they've never seen this malfunction I actually have, the o ring exerted so much pressure that the extractor swelled outwards and was difficult for the Bcg to go into battery, as well as not wanting to let go of the spent case. In my humble opinion, extractor problems should be remedied with springs and inserts, not O rings. Again. Just trying to help. |
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I've never put them on, they come standard now on many bcgs, it is a phoney upgrade and I don't remember reading that his didn't have one. With a fresh build, the chances are high that he does. And finally. Relax bro, just trying to help. With so many people saying they've never seen this malfunction I actually have, the o ring exerted so much pressure that the extractor swelled outwards and was difficult for the Bcg to go into battery, as well as not wanting to let go of the spent case. In my humble opinion, extractor problems should be remedied with springs and inserts, not O rings. Again. Just trying to help. Quoted:
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Ditch the o ring around your extractor spring and try again. it'll never happen again. You can put it back eventually if it makes you feel better. Try it before you dismiss it. I've only had one rifle do this and it ran like a top after pitching that phoney upgrade that now seems to come standard on bcgs. He did not have a ring. He did have issues with the extractor keeping the case on the bolt. Trying an O-ring can't hurt. If your "phoney" upgrade was not actually Viton, it wouldn't work properly anyway. I tried plain plumbers' #60 O-rings; they took a set, and actually got in the way of the extractor functioning. If you spend a little money (the link I posted is 5 for 22ยข) and get the proper part, the worst it can do is nothing. I've never put them on, they come standard now on many bcgs, it is a phoney upgrade and I don't remember reading that his didn't have one. With a fresh build, the chances are high that he does. And finally. Relax bro, just trying to help. With so many people saying they've never seen this malfunction I actually have, the o ring exerted so much pressure that the extractor swelled outwards and was difficult for the Bcg to go into battery, as well as not wanting to let go of the spent case. In my humble opinion, extractor problems should be remedied with springs and inserts, not O rings. Again. Just trying to help. The boys over at the Naval Surface Warfare Center Crane Division would beg to differ. |
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I've never put them on, they come standard now on many bcgs, it is a phoney upgrade and I don't remember reading that his didn't have one. With a fresh build, the chances are high that he does. And finally. Relax bro, just trying to help. With so many people saying they've never seen this malfunction I actually have, the o ring exerted so much pressure that the extractor swelled outwards and was difficult for the Bcg to go into battery, as well as not wanting to let go of the spent case. In my humble opinion, extractor problems should be remedied with springs and inserts, not O rings. Again. Just trying to help. Quoted:
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Ditch the o ring around your extractor spring and try again. it'll never happen again. You can put it back eventually if it makes you feel better. Try it before you dismiss it. I've only had one rifle do this and it ran like a top after pitching that phoney upgrade that now seems to come standard on bcgs. He did not have a ring. He did have issues with the extractor keeping the case on the bolt. Trying an O-ring can't hurt. If your "phoney" upgrade was not actually Viton, it wouldn't work properly anyway. I tried plain plumbers' #60 O-rings; they took a set, and actually got in the way of the extractor functioning. If you spend a little money (the link I posted is 5 for 22ยข) and get the proper part, the worst it can do is nothing. I've never put them on, they come standard now on many bcgs, it is a phoney upgrade and I don't remember reading that his didn't have one. With a fresh build, the chances are high that he does. And finally. Relax bro, just trying to help. With so many people saying they've never seen this malfunction I actually have, the o ring exerted so much pressure that the extractor swelled outwards and was difficult for the Bcg to go into battery, as well as not wanting to let go of the spent case. In my humble opinion, extractor problems should be remedied with springs and inserts, not O rings. Again. Just trying to help. What difference does it make? Extractor tension is created by compressing material such as a spring or an o-ring. Do you think the extractor knows the difference between steel from a spring, silicone from an insert, or viton from an o-ring? Tension is tension. |
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i stopped reading at sub-moa with Wolf Gold. Quoted:
i stopped reading at sub-moa with Wolf Gold. Same... WTF 
I have never seen Wolf gold produce anything much better than 1.5moa. The ammo is simply not capable of producing those groups. Wolf gold is good ammo but it just doesn't shoot like that. Quoted:
No, it was a spent case that Im guessing didnt extract and stayed on the BCG and got stuck on the barrel lugs or something else. I just tried to recreate it with a spent case but wasnt able to. As for mags, I using 20rd PMAGS so idk about quality. All my buddies use PMAGS and they feed fine but I have had some failure to feed and other mag probs. Is it possible that you accidentally loaded a spent casing... i had a little trouble following exactly what your malfunction looked like but this is what it looks like when you load a spent case 
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