AR Sponsor
Posted: 1/24/2004 6:24:22 PM EDT
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A freind recomended this stuff, but I have read that it might be a little harsh. Anything I should be worried about with stainless steel or regular barrel steel? How about aluminum? Or any other finishes? Should I clean out the boar with hoppes afterwards? Thanks |
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From my personal archives - Page 1 of 5 *************************************** From www.benchrest.com Benchrest Central Forums > Centerfire Benchrest > Amonnia And My Barrel !!! Pages (3): [1] 2 3 » Last Thread Next Thread Author Thread hunter54 Member Registered: Feb 2003 Location: Posts: 5 Amonnia And My Barrel !!! Ive been following the instructions to a T.... 1.Run a patch saturated with Shooters Choice MC7. (twice) to push out powder residue. Then bore brush 10 round trips. Follow with a couple of dry patches to expose the copper left behind. 2. Saturate a patch with Shooters Choice (COPPER REMOVER). Run this down the barrel and back (twice). 3. Let it soak 5-10 minutes then make 10 round trips with bore brush. 4.Saturate a patch with MC7 and push it down and out the bore, flushing out the copper remover. ( Do this again) until patch exits bore with no visable blue color (copper). Then dry patch. NOW IM READING.... NEVER use an amonnia based solvent greater than 3% (Shooters Choice is 5%) in a stainless steel barrel. And there's more.... mixing these 2 chemicals will damage my barrel. Give me a BREAK!! I trusted these people and their product. So.....any of you out there figure Ive really damaged my guns. Ive used this procedure to break in most of them, including my last purchase . ... My dream Armalite AR15 Target.... I think Im gonna puke!!! Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged 02-10-2003 03:46 AM Russ Hardy Member Registered: Feb 2003 Location: Posts: 28 I have used Sweets and seen many top benchrest shooters use sweets in stainless BR barrels. It isn't going to hurt a thing if you don't leave it in there forever, and it might not if you did. Thats my OPINION. I have no idea if that also applies to chrome-moly barrels. I would reccomend that you put some 3in1 oil on a patch and run it down the bore after all the sweets is gone. Then one dry patch to get out most of the oil. I don't like to shoot a dry bore after the sweets(copper remover). Last edited by Russ Hardy on 02-10-2003 at 04:08 AM Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged 02-10-2003 04:03 AM AshleyPalmer Member Registered: Feb 2003 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 61 For Hunter54 Don't sweat it. Chemical reactions take time to cause damage. So long as you didn't leave these goops in the rifle longer than recommended, your rifle should be OK. Now, are these copper removers necessary? Much has been written on the subject. Yes you need a clean bore to shoot well, but how clean? Even the copper remover users admit that they condition the bore with a shot or two before shooting for record. So they've just put back most of the copper they've just removed. It is NOT cumulative. If it were, machine guns would be jammed full before the firefight ends. The reason is that copper deposits do not adhere very well to the barrel steel. So bits and pieces get removed by the next bullet. A high quality barrel shouldn't get much copper deposits in the first place. If you insist on cleaning the copper with theses goops, then once every 100 to 300 rounds should do fine. Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged 02-10-2003 01:01 PM Bill DeGregorio Chuck shooter Registered: Feb 2003 Location: Idaho Posts: 70 Go to www.riflebarrels.com lots of good info. Don't worry, your not hurting anything. Good shooting! Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged 02-10-2003 02:21 PM JerrySharrett Getaway car driver Registered: Feb 2003 Location: Tennessee Posts: 265 I agree with Ashley that Sweets, Butches, Shooters Choice will not damage your barrel if used according to their directions. Most barrels must be "fouled" before shooting for record. I Disagree on machine gun barrels. 1) They get burned up in about the third 100 round burst like we used in armor. 2)They do copper, but, see one (1) above. You must get the copper out. Copper collects more copper. A properly conditioned barrel will not copper if used properly. At least not in the first 1200-1600 rounds. You must get the carbon out before you remove the copper. Copper is stuck to the barrel. It will not stick to the carbon! The comments above only apply to a premium, super-finished, stainless barrel. Your AR-15 barrel may react differently according to its quality of finish. Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged 02-10-2003 02:28 PM Lloyd Member Registered: Feb 2003 Location: Roseburg, OR Posts: 90 For what little it's worth, I met and talked with Jim Sweet, the originator of the Sweet's 7.62 Solvent, at the 1979 Palma Matches held at Upper Hutt (Trentham Range), New Zealand. When asked how long it is safe to leave Sweet's Solvent in chrome-moly barrels, Mr. Sweet said to "...never leave it in the bore more than 15 minutes..." I followed that advice with my full-bore (hi-power) chrome-moly barrels, shooting 2 to 4 days per week for the next several years. Cleaning between every string of fire, and using a relatively neutral oil (Hoppe's OLD version of #9) both before and after the Sweet's, my barrels showed no reduction in bore life from what I would have expected if not using Sweet's at all. Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged 02-10-2003 06:28 PM Brent Moffitt Member Registered: Feb 2003 Location: Alaska Posts: 43 I've heard that if you shoot your fouling shots without a light coat of oil in the bore first, it will strip copper from it instead of powder fouling it first. The powder fouling is said to leave a barrier to keep from stripping the copper. If copper is first stripped, I've been told two similar metals will gall and continue to build up the copper and this is why it's important to not let it start by using a smooth bore and light coat of oil at the start. Is this true? I have heard that when changing powder, you need to foul the bore with a couple shots with the new one being used because bullets will react differently to the new residue, true? Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged 02-10-2003 08:47 PM Ken Turner Senior Member Registered: Feb 2003 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio Posts: 501 Brent, I'd say that both of your statements were true. However, you DON'T want a lot of oil in your barrel before firing your first shot. If you have a heavy coating of oil in your barrel, it acts just like a bore obstuction! I imagine if it were thick enough, you could probably buldge a barrel this way. The key is a LIGHT coating of lubrication. Personally, I use a combination of Kroil and Colloidal Graphite before firing the first shot. Last edited by Ken Turner on 02-10-2003 at 09:17 PM Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged 02-10-2003 08:52 PM Brent Moffitt Member Registered: Feb 2003 Location: Alaska Posts: 43 Ken, I guess I should have highlighted the "light" part. I use about the same as you and run a dry patch through, sometimes two. I think you're probably right, If you didn't patch the excess out I think your asking for trouble. Maybe BIG trouble! Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged 02-10-2003 09:46 PM Ken Turner Senior Member Registered: Feb 2003 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio Posts: 501 Brent, you didn't do anything wrong. I simply wanted to emphasize LIGHT, so no one else learns that the HARD way! Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged 02-10-2003 10:00 PM Brent Moffitt Member Registered: Feb 2003 Location: Alaska Posts: 43 Ken, No sweat, I completely understand and appreciate it. Take care, Brent |
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From my personal archives - Page 2 of 5 *************************************** Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged 02-10-2003 10:26 PM hunter54 Member Registered: Feb 2003 Location: Posts: 5 FOR ALL YOU GUYS Thanks for the info!! I'd been considering High Power Competition for a long while. (Enter the Armalite stainless barrel mouse gun.) Wanting to learn all I could about this equipment, I later purchased the book ''Black Magic'' The Ultra Accurate AR-15 by John Feamster. After arriving at Chapter 6 page 239, the fear of ammonia entered my very soul! From the book.....( The author is going over barrel cleaning). I will quote him here .......Both ammonia-based and abrasive cleaners have their adherents and detractors, so go with what you personally feel comfortable with. However, in any case, NEVER ALTERNATE OR MIX AN AMMONIA-BASED SOLVENT WITH SHOOTER'S CHOICE!!!!! As reported in Precision Shooting, this mixture (even when drying out the barrel between courses with the two solvents) has been found to create a chemical which is extremely harmful to rifle barrels...... This is what I read, that really spooked me! You see, Shooters Choice ''Copper Remover'' is a 5% ammonia based solvent. The instructions on their (Copper Remover ) bottle however, said to use their regular solvent (''Shooters Choice MC7''), more or less as a flushing agent to rid the barrel of their (''Shooters Choice Copper Remover''). Im gettin DIZZZZZZZZYYYYY! Once again, you have a well known and respected solvent company, at odd's with a well known and respected shooting expert. Just which one of these BIG GUYS do we little guys go with? Just take a pick I guess. Im sure youve heard the old saying '' Opinions are like A____ Holes ...everybodys got one'' Worked a lot of O.T. to get the AR. Thats why this ammonia thing really gives me the willy's! Aeh...Thanks again for the input! Just what in the world did we do before the internet, when we may have had a question but no one around of like mind to ask. We are indeed blessed. Gee I dont feel alone anymore! Oh no, I think Im gonna cry! No in all seriousness this really is a neat thing. Needless to say I'll be spending a lot of time at this GREAT site on future cold winter evenings. (UNLESS IM AT THE BENCH). ANYMORE INPUT ANYONE? Thanks! Dan Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged 02-11-2003 01:08 AM Butch Fisher Member Registered: Feb 2003 Location: Montana Posts: 15 Amonnia is harmless To anyone concerned: I know alot of you will argue with me on this, but here it is. In the development of Butch's, I have done a lot of research,and have documented proof from Dr's of Chemistry, and Metalergy, and they have told me that 100% raw amonnia will not harm 400 series stainless, or chromemoly barrels. With that being said, why would solvents with 5% amonnia harm the barrel? Most of the shooters in the benchrest crowd know me, and use my product with great success with no complaints. I get calls on this subject every day, and I am not writing this to tout my product. There are many fine solvents on the market today, all of which do a good job, used with common sense. Try not to mix solvents, that's where you can get into trouble. I do know that my product is compatable with sweets,because I used it as a test bed, while making mine. One last thing I like to tell people, is if you're afraid of a little bit of amonnia, what do you think happens when you pull the trigger? Thank You, and Good Shooting Butch Fisher BBS Industries Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged 02-11-2003 03:49 AM Bob Zwahlen Senior Member Registered: Feb 2003 Location: Butler Pa. Posts: 181 So just don't mix solvents by pouring one bottle into the other. When you run two dry patches after using solvent "A" you avoid any problem with solvent "B". Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged 02-11-2003 04:54 AM Brent Moffitt Member Registered: Feb 2003 Location: Alaska Posts: 43 I've asked the question on many boards, what ammonia actually DOES if left inthe bore longer than 15 minutes, hoping someone would actually know. All we're ever told is not to. After a couple years I have never got an answer that anyone knows for sure is why, they just guess. I seriously would like to know. Butch has definatly given the best response to this yet. It may be a combination of what's in Sweets or something that will prove harmfull, but if so, wouldn't you like to know WHAT to look FOR? I wonder if they just think because the stuff smells so powerfull it CAN'T be good in there for long. Who knows. I still don't leave the stuff in there more than any longer to get the barrel clean, sometimes it's longer, most of the time not. I still think about it the whole time I'm cleaning with the stuff and just wish I had a difinitive answer to put it to rest. It seems someone would know and have tested it as much as the "warning" is propagated. By the way, I've always used Shooters Choice to rinse the Sweets out too, get that. I've never heard not to before this. Appreciate your comments Butch, and the scientific opinions behind it. I have no reason to not believe you and will rest a little better hearing it. Maybe you could get your contacts to explain the possible why and why not it would do what ever to our barrels in depth sometime? Take care, Brent Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged 02-11-2003 06:11 AM All times are GMT. The time now is 07:18 AM. Pages (3): [1] 2 3 » Pages (3): « 1 [2] 3 » Last Thread Next Thread Author Thread Bill DeGregorio Chuck shooter Registered: Feb 2003 Location: Idaho Posts: 70 http://www.riflebarrels.com Dan Lilja did a test on this, had a good artical on his web site. Check there for the artical, or just call him. Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged 02-11-2003 01:38 PM |
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From my personal archives - Page 3 of 5 *************************************** Lloyd Member Registered: Feb 2003 Location: Roseburg, OR Posts: 90 Take a look at "ammonia dope" on pages 334/335 of Hatcher's Notebook. Formula for U.S. Army Ordnance Department Fouling Solution used to remove cupro-nickel bullet jaket fouling was Ammonia Persulphate 1 oz Ammonium carbonate 200 grams Stronger Ammonia Water (28%) 6 ounces Distilled Water 4 ounces This solution was strong, but was not pure ammonia. Did it harm chrome-moly barrels? Hatcher says, "In using this solution the breech of the gun was corked up and a rubber tube was slipped over the muzzle, so that when the barrel was filled the muzzle could be entirely covered with no part of the metal making contact with the solution and the air at the same time. IF THIS SHOULD OCCUR, THE SOLUTION WOULD ATTACK THE BARREL AT THE POINT WHERE IT CAME IN CONTACT WITH THE AIR, AND THE BARREL WOULD BE RUINED IN A FEW MINUTES." Maj. Gen. Hatcher may not have had a Ph.D. in chemistry, but he did serve as the Commanding Officer of the experimental department of Springfield Armory; Chief of Small Arms Division, Technical Staff, Ordnance Department; Chief Small Arms & Machine Gun Section, Engineering Division, Ordnance Department, and many,many other technical rifle-related positions in the U.S.Army. He was also Technical Editor of the American Rifleman Anyway, Gen Hatcher's comments were not "opinion", nor "proof" either. They were the report of actual observation of the effects of an ammonia solution on chrome-moly barrels. They do suggest that in some forms of use, ammonia can be harmful to chrome-moly barrels. Similar observations may have led to Mr.Sweet's own suggestion not to leave his solution in a barrel more than 15 minutes...perhaps a lower grade reaction at the point where the Sweet's and air contacted the bore as the Sweet's "dried"? AT $350 per barrel or more, installed, I can see where prudence might be the best course. Last edited by Lloyd on 02-11-2003 at 03:57 PM Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged 02-11-2003 03:46 PM Butch Fisher Member Registered: Feb 2003 Location: Montana Posts: 15 mixing solvents I tried last night to explain about amonnia not hurting youre barrels. I'm not a chemist, but I do know from many years of experience, and alot of research in developing my product, that amonnia WILL NOT HURT youre barrel!!!!!!. I would sugest that you always rinse youre barrel with a good degreaser between one solvent, and another. If you want to talk more on the matter, please feel free to call me 406-652-2495. Thank You and Good Shooting Butch Fisher BBS Industries Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged 02-11-2003 04:31 PM Alex Member Registered: Feb 2003 Location: Posts: 15 why not an experiment The ammonia questions have come up more than a thousand times, we really have to put it to rest. I have an idea: there must be some sections of barrels either cut off from setting barrels back or cut to length by gunsmiths and barrel makers lying around somewhere someplace. Why not gather some of these barrel sections in whatever grade stainless steel and whatever grade of chromemoly and put them to the ammonia tests. This way, we don't have to guess or hearsay anymore. Any gunsmiths and or barrel makers contribution to this test will be truly appreciated by us all. Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged 02-11-2003 06:58 PM AshleyPalmer Member Registered: Feb 2003 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 61 Ammonia and steel Ammonia is actually NH4 and is a gas. WHat is used on rifle barrels for cleaning is some solution of ammonia and is a salt of ammonia or ammonium hydroxide. These ARE corrosive to steel. It must be remembered that "stainless" as applied to 416R is really a misnomer. It is only corrosion resistant. 416R and Chrome-moly High strength low alloy steels can be attacked by ammoniated salts in the presence of air. That is why the manufacturers of these "goops" do not recommend leaving them in for extended periods. Use them if you must, but remember that these will eventually damage your barrel if used for extended periods. In most cases, you can remove the copper wash from your barrel by reverse electro plating in a few minutes. This method is not as corrosive as ammoniated solvents however it does use a salt solution. Your barrel does NOT have to be pristine to shoot well. Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged 02-11-2003 07:05 PM Greg Culpepper Member Registered: Feb 2003 Location: Linville Falls, NC Posts: 76 ammonia What Ashley meant was that bore cleaners actually use ammonium hydroxide (ammonia gas or ammomium salts dissolved into water). Ammonia will not corrode steel but it will degrease steel surfaces leaving it unprotected from oxidizing (rusting). The water that is the carrier for the ammonia will allow atmospheric oxygen to combine with unprotected steel and produce iron oxide or rust. This is why Hatcher's ammonia solution would ruin barrels that were exposed to air but not hurt barrels that were completely submerged. Butch's and other good ammoniated bore cleaners contain air impermiable oils that prevent air from contacting a wet bore before the water has evaporated. These oils also prevent the bore from being exposed to atmospheric water vapor after cleaning that would cause rust. Further to my friend Butch's post, if you use a degreaser spray around any ammonia product, make sure that it contains no chlorinated hydrocarbons. It will say on the label. Ammonia has taken a bum rap because of interactions with chlorine. And if you degrease the bore, oil it before you shoot or store. Greg Culpepper Montana X-treme Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged 02-11-2003 08:38 PM virg HBR Shooter Registered: Feb 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 106 Sweet's the barrels friend and coppers enemy. After all the benchrest matches attended, I've really never heard any bad words about Sweet's. It was not til some of the folks on the internet started a few forum threads on concerns with it that I was aware of any issues with it. I'll tell you about a little experiment I did with it when I got a new barrel in 1998. I took one of the two pieces of my barrel that were cut off in the manufacturing process and used one to see how it reacted to Sweet's and a bottle of "Blue Goop" I had made up from an old Precision Shooting magazine article. You talk about ammonia concentration, Blue Goop ran about 28%. I started with a 4" sample of the barrel and applied Sweet's and let it set for 1 day. Cleaned it out and followed with regular Hoppe's gun oil. Result: no damage. I then again applied Sweet's and let it set for a week, reapplying it everyday. Result: no visable damage. I repeated this same proceedure with the "Blue Goop" solution with the same results (boy you better have good ventilation for this stuff). Now there may be some combination out there that will damage a barrel, but none that I think I'll ever run into with the normal cleaning solutions on the market today. Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged |
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From my personal archives - Page 4 of 5 *************************************** 02-11-2003 11:10 PM hunter54 Member Registered: Feb 2003 Location: Posts: 5 Thank's Butch.... THANKS BUTCH FOR YOUR REPLY. I EMAILED ''SHOOTERS CHOICE'' 3 DAYS AGO ABOUT MY CONCERNS, AND HAVENT YET RECEIVED A RESPONSE AND...... PROBABLY WONT. YUP IM JUST ONE OF THOSE LITTLE GUYS TO THEM. IM SWITCHING TO YOUR PRODUCT. IVE BEEN MEANING TO TRY IT OUT FOR THE LAST 4 YEARS. ALL IVE HEARD OR READ ABOUT IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN VERY POSITIVE. THANKS DAN Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged 02-11-2003 11:32 PM Keith Highfield Member Registered: Feb 2003 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 45 Sweets Hunter54. Like Virg some years back i cut off a few inches of a stainless BR barrel and split it in half. I put one piece vertically in a jar and added Sweets half way up the piece and closed the top. I looked at it each day for a week and then each week for 2months and could see no damage or high water mark examined with a 10# glass. I repeated this with new Sweets but with the top open. Same result after cleaning with a rag and oil. I would not like to wash out Sweets with another solvent or vice versa it not being good practise to mix chemicals. A single dry patch between the different solvents is enough. If I tried this wet wash and got good results I still would not be happy to do so with a good barrel. This is why i have never tried this experiment as the ingredients COULD change without my knowledge and or testing. It just isn't worth the chance when a single patch does the job. I find that 10 to 12 minutes of Sweets does a good job and longer gives little if any extra benefit Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged 02-12-2003 03:14 AM Butch Fisher Member Registered: Feb 2003 Location: Montana Posts: 15 Re: Thank's Butch.... Youre welcom Dan: I'm just trying to help. I have been shooting for 48 years, and have heard alot. I'm retired, and enjoy shooting benchrest all over the country. I didn't plan to start a busness, I just wanted a solvent to suit me. I came up with Butch's and shared it with friends in the benchrest crowd, and it took off from there. I'm glad to hear you are going to try it, I'm sure you will like it. Alot of the best shooters in the world do. Thank You and Good Shooting Butch Fisher BBs Industries Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged 02-12-2003 03:36 AM Brent Moffitt Member Registered: Feb 2003 Location: Alaska Posts: 43 Butch, I hope you didn't take me wrong on the post above, I only ment to draw out some of the guys that supposedly "know" how it hurts the barrel, as "they" always warn us. You guys that really know and have tested this......MY HAT'S OFF TO YOU!! Thank you MUCH!! Wish I had done some tests a while back, but I didn't have a take off barrel to whack up yet. I always run a couple dry patches through as well, just to get all I can out, when I use the Sweets. I'll give Butch's a try when this bottle is gone. I've seen it more and more up here but just hadn't thought it was but just another "secret" solvent. It's spendy up here too. When I buy a solvent I'm not too picky so I just never wanted to spend the extra money I guess. I'll try it and see how it stacks up. These guys jacking the price way up on everything new trying to fleece us, seem to drop the price later on when they KNOW nobody is buying it at the outrageous price. Never stops them from trying on the next product out though. It seems like the big bottle of Butch's came down $5.00 in the last few months. Marketing???? Glad it's doing well for you though Butch. The chlorinated degreaser thing Greg mentioned , I'll remember that point, I have used brake cleaner at times to rinse after Sweets, but it's been non-chlorinated so far. I'll try the Montana-Extreme sometime soon, my brother uses it. Saw my first bottle of it just a few months ago. You guys are a well edjucated bunch it seems. I look forward to learning some more from you all at times. Take care, Brent Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged 02-12-2003 05:46 AM Greg Langelius Member Registered: Feb 2003 Location: Finger Lakes, New York Posts: 124 The problem with ammonia is that it will dissolve nickel, which is a component in the stainless alloy. All this being said, I have used ammonia in stainless barrels (my S/A M1a match gun) and not seen any deviations in accuracy, which is what I consider to be the true bottom line. I would consider the effects of ammonia based copper solvents in stainless barrels to be genuinely an issue, but not really the significant one for rifles being used for non-BR applications. For applications like NM Highpower, they may actually be beneficial in the balance, because they will do a better job of copper removal, and that's the real culprit where H/P accuracy degradation is involved. H/P generates a lot of copper fouling, and trying to clean it all out with low-ammonia solvents can be such a PITA that some folks get tempted give up before the job's really done. Better to mildly degrade the metallic structure than to try and make a score starting out with half a match's copper fouling left from last time. The bore surface in an H/P rifle is going to get paved over so early in the match with copper that any relatively mild bore etching due to ammonia is not going to be the significant factor in accuracy during the long haul of the match. Now BR bores are something else. I would say they are much smoother surfaced than the well used H/P rifle, more delicate, and susceptable to more factors than an H/P rifle's bore. Bear in mind, however, that any rifle bore is an inherently violent place to begin with. On the balance, I'd be less prone to use a high-ammonia solvent in a BR's rifle's stainless bore. Your personal milage may vary... Greg Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged 02-13-2003 03:06 AM Philippe Octo Member Registered: Feb 2003 Location: Cannes, France Posts: 24 In 98/99, I saved the exchange we had on that subject from the BR List; here is an excerpt: "Gentlemen If I may just pass on a few facts about Ammonia and its use on carbon steel and stainless steel. N.H.3 0.89 30 -32 % Ammonia has an corrosion rate on stainless steel of .002 ins per year total immersed at 20deg C with carbon steel the corrosion rate is .0002 ins per year total immersed at 20 deg C . The copper remover called Sweet,s 7.62 solvent is made from Ammonia 0.89 13% Oleic acid 18% Distilled water 54% Alcohol IMS 15% . If you mix Ammonia and Oleic acid together you get Ammonium Oletate which is a corrosion inhibitor and will have no detrimental effect on carbon or stainless steel . Just thought you would like to know." If you're interested, e-mail me off line and i can forward the e-mails I saved. Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged |
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From my personal archives - Page 5 of 5 *************************************** 02-16-2003 11:27 AM ultramag44 Senior Member Registered: Feb 2003 Location: Lubbock Texas Posts: 176 fellows, In the Sinclair book, Fred Sinclair states: over exposure to ammonia, (longer then 15 minutes) may etch the barrel steel. I use Butches Bore Shine to clean powder fouling, then Ammonia to remove copper. After patching out the Ammonia you can put a light coat of gun oil in the barrel, or, run another patch with Butches Bore Shine and leave it wet. Before shooting next time, dry patch out. I f you are really anal, you can spray Birchwood Casey solvent to dry the barrel out or even spray disk brake cleaner, which is cheaper. thjis will make the barrel squeeky clean & dry! Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged 02-16-2003 11:45 PM Greg Culpepper Member Registered: Feb 2003 Location: Linville Falls, NC Posts: 76 ultramag 44 Spray degreases like Birchwood Casey Gunn Scrubber and similar automotive products like brake cleaner have many uses in and around guns (triggers, action recesses, scope mounts, bore brushes etc.) but can't help in a bore unless you are removing grease after storage. They will not remove powder fouling or copper from a bore. Many spray degreasers contain chlorinated hydrocarbons (check the label) that will cause trouble if combined with a product that contains ammonia (Butch's Bore Shine, Montana X-treme etc). Bore cleaners have oils in them that will protect the bore in storage and for the first few shots after cleaning. If you shot an absolutely clean, dry, degreased bore it will strip copper off a bullet like a cheese grater. You need something for the bullet to ride on( oil, colloidal graphite, moly, or, after a few shots, powder residue). Also, a degreased bore is exposed to the air and will rust in the presence of water vapor in the air or condensation from temperature changes. Don't leave your bore naked. Greg Culpepper Montana X-treme Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged 02-17-2003 06:07 PM All times are GMT. The time now is 07:22 AM. Pages (3): « 1 [2] 3 » Pages (3): « 1 2 [3] Last Thread Next Thread Author Thread c east Member Registered: Mar 2003 Location: Posts: 3 When I first discovered Sweets I got out all my old military sewage tubes went on an anal mission from god..In a old model 39 fin I forgot and left it in overnite..I'm in NM so moisture was not an issue and the next morning got a nice patch of rust and blue out..The day before no rust patches...So on regular steel this is an indication..Honest Charlie Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged 04-04-2003 06:26 PM Bill Dorsey Member Registered: Feb 2003 Location: Waxahachie, Tx Posts: 58 Using your Shooters Choice first My advice is this, by all means use up your Shooters Choice. We all know that money for those of us on a budget is hard to come by for our shooting equipment and outings. Here's how I'm using up my Shooters Choice... 1) First, buy a bottle of Butchs Bore Shine. 2) Use Butchs as directions indicate. 3) Use Shooters Choice on the rag you use to wipe the carbon off the necks of the cases before you reload. 4) You will always have a backup bottle of bore solvent...Shooters Choice... if you happen to run out of Butchs at an inopportune moment. We have been doing this for about three years and while we have gone through a lot of BBS, we still have most of a bottle of Shooters Choice left. Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged 04-04-2003 07:31 PM Dan Hackett Senior Member Registered: Feb 2003 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 322 Re: Amonnia is NOT harmless quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Butch Fisher they have told me that 100% raw amonnia will not harm 400 series stainless, or chromemoly barrels. With that being said, why would solvents with 5% amonnia harm the barrel? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Because pure ammonia is not corrosive, but ammonia salts are corrosive. Bore-cleaning solvents don't contain pure ammonia; they contain ammonia salts. --Dan Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged 04-04-2003 08:14 PM Ken Turner Senior Member Registered: Feb 2003 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio Posts: 501 I have seen the damage that ammonia can do to rifle barrels. I haven't seen any damage from Butch's, but I can testify that Sweet's WILL ruin a barrel if you don't follow instructions. When I DID follow the instructions, and didn't leave it in a barrel too long, I never had any damage, to the best of my knowledge. Still, I am twice shy about using ammonia in rifle bores, and I tend to avoid it, unless it is absolutely necessary. Sometimes, it IS necessary! I just make sure to clean it out with isopropyl alcohol if I do have to use cleaners with ammonia in them. Then I protect the bore with some type of oil after using the alcohol to clear out the ammonia. I am not quite as cautious about using Butch's as I am about using Sweet's and the like. Can I PROVE ammonia will damage rifle barrels? Nope! There are many chemical reactions that can't be easily duplicated in the laboratory, yet are very well documented in the real world. This is one of them. I submit that merely swabing a section of a clean barrel with ammonia is NOT the same as making a "witch's brew" inside a fouled barrel, consisting of powder residue, carbon, copper fouling, primer residue, possibly traces of other cleaners, etc. If you ever are unfortunate enough to ruin one of your barrels with ammonia, you won't EVER AGAIN doubt that it can happen. Just use a little caution, and you probably won't have that unpleasant experience. Good Shooting! ...KenT Last edited by Ken Turner on 04-05-2003 at 02:44 AM Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged 04-05-2003 02:41 AM Greg Culpepper Member Registered: Feb 2003 Location: Linville Falls, NC Posts: 76 "When I DID follow the instructions," Ken, That says it all. If Sweet's says limit the time; do it. When Butch and Montana X-treme say it's safe to soak; you can believe it. Greg Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged 04-05-2003 04:03 AM All times are GMT. The time now is 07:22 AM. Pages (3): « 1 2 [3] |
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