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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - TacPoint (Page 1 of 3)
Posted: 7/24/2004 11:14:58 PM EDT
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I think its really sad you guys would be willing to spend your hard earned money on a junk piece of glass instead of just buying the real thing. If all you want is a reddot then go to wally world and buy a BSA for 30 bucks and spend the rest on ammo. Flame suit on, let's hear what you Tacpoint guys have to say. You Aimpoint guys don't be afraid to speak up also. ETA: Friends don't let friends buy Tacpoint!!!!!!! 
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I have an Aimpoint on my "serious" M4, but as an Aimpoint guy I see no problem in buying a Tacpoint to put on a plinker. I'm even considering buying one for my next 9mm AR build rather then drop more then twice as much on another Aimpoint. I'm not saying I don't like my Aimpoint, I'm just saying the Tacpoint is a well-priced alternative for some folks. Digital |
And THATS the attitude to have toward them. However, there are people visiting lately that seem to think they are a viable substitute for a serious use optic, or ridule the entire concept of anything being serious, because everyone on this board is an internet-commando. |
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Boom, this thread just lowered my respect for you a notch. This issue has been covered ad naseum! Jeez, WHY THE HELL ARE YOU STARTING ARGUEMENTS??!! And you are a moderator to boot. Jeez. I know you don't give a damn what I think, so I'll just move on and avoid your posts from now on. |
Does a internet-commando out rank a poser? I can't keep up anymore!
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I'll ditto Lumpy's comments |
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I replied to some of the Tacpoint threads, and I still say that some rapid acquisition capability is better than no rapid acquisition capability. Let's say the guy can't afford an Aimpoint(which is not cheap, by any definition), but he wants a decent red-dot sight that can be mounted on his AR with a good mount. Maybe his is even intending to get an Aimpoint down the road, and wants to see how well he'll like it, without spending $500. He could buy a Larue or Arms(or whatever) good throw-lever mount for it that would work fine when he gets the money for his Aimpoint. The Tacpoint will look just like the Aimpoint, mount just like the Aimpoint, and work as well as the Aimpoint for most purposes. Even in combat(SHTF) use, it may hold up just fine. There is no rule stating that it will immediately break upon combat use. In the meantime, he has a rapid acquisition gunsight that will work just fine in most any circumstances. Maybe it won't take as much abuse as an Aimpoint, but we really don't know that for sure yet, do we? And in any case, either sight will break if you subject it to enough abuse, and that's what the BUIS is for. We could make the same type of argument about alot of AR15 stuff. Is an AR15 "no good" if it is not from Colt or Bushmaster or FN( or other "official" GI contractor)? Is an AR15 accessory automatically "no good" if it is not "official GI issue"? Is an aftermarket barrel "no good" if it is not the one that is on the "official SPR or SAM"? I could go on. People seem to love the Larue mounts, the DD rail systems, LMT rail systems, the ARMS BUIS, etc, etc. These are not "official issue" parts, but it doesn't stop people from buying them, nor reflect badly on their designs. In fact many people think that these parts are better than "official issue" parts. If only "official SOPMOD parts" were acceptable, then everybody would have all KAC products, because those are the "official" ones. How come nobody is making an issue out of all these "other parts" that are not "official issue"? Sure, the Tacpoint is cheaper than the Aimpoint, and it might not be "as good". But that doesn't mean that it is a POS. It will function just as good as any Aimpoint, unless it fails before an Aimpoint would fail. And even then, it would have served good use up until then. For alot less money. I seriously doubt that many members of this board will be dropping their Aimpoint equipped AR15s from a helicopter 50ft above the ground, or leaving it underwater overnight, or using it for a baseball bat. Even under those circumstances, an Aimpoint COULD break. What if the Aimpoint does break(which has happened)? Or if it gets water inside(which has been shown to have happened)? Then you are just as SOL as if you had a Tacpoint that broke or got water inside. Yes, in the ultimate sense, an Aimpoint has some battle-proven history, and is official GI issue. It is probably the best bet for a red-dot sight if you can afford it. But it CAN break, it CAN leak, and it CAN go out of service. You are not "failure proof" with any electronic sight. Give the guys who have limited funds a break. Let them get what they can afford, and have SOME rapid acquisition capabilities on their AR15s, that at least will simulate what the real Aimpoint systems do, uses the same mounts, looks the same, and will serve well in most roles that any of us will see in actual use. If you are going to Iraq, then by all means get an Aimpoint. If you are going to the range, or want an affordable sight for whatever reason, then a Tacpoint is a viable option. Just because it may not be the ultimate best in the world, does not mean it has no useful purpose. |
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Here are my issues with the tacpoint: knockoff (stole Aimpoint patent IMHO) Made in China (a lot of Hakko's optics are made in China even though the company is in Japan) I understand that people like the $100 + price tag of the tacpoint and that it is a good fit for plinking rifles. The tacpoint is not for me for the above stated reasons.... C4 |
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You make some very viable points, twl. Fact of the matter is, I have not yet seen ONE single "Aimpoint bests Tacpoint" post or thread that utilized real, actual test results based on an actual side-by-side comparison of ANY sample size of the two scopes. EVERYTHING that has been posted has been to the effect of "Ooooh, it's made in China/Japan/wherever", "It's a piece of crap because I say so", "it's not GI issue", "it hasn't been test by the US Government, so it must be crappy", or "if you want the best, buy an Aimpoint". The sad truth is that, without actually testing them under controlled conditions and using an objective and impartial methodology, the word "best" is purely subjective and means N-O-T-H-I-N-G. How are you going to convince me that your favorite brand of BBQ potato chip is better than my favorite brand when YOU haven't tried mine? Anything you say is purely factless opinion and easily questioned. Anybody who tries to convince me that a one-sided methodology is all one needs to make an objective conclusion is only fooling himself. Personally, I've never once said either one is better than the other. I can't legitimately state that -- I've not performed a side-by-side as outlined above. I've never supported the purchase of "communist-built" products as a whole. In fact, I go out of my way to buy products that support the USA and those who build them -- my family, my friends, my fellow Americans. However, claiming that, because it was made OUTSIDE of the USA = an inferior product to one made INSIDE the USA (e.g., good for 'plinking' but not good enough for SHTF) without testing them is, well, not accurate. The ONLY thing I've ever stated is that, in order to make an accurate statement regarding PROCUCT A vs. PRODUCT B, you MUST evaluate them on equal footing. It doesn't matter if the products where made in the USA, China, Japan or in Nairobi or Tanzania for that matter. If you want to support -ONLY- products made in [insert locale-specific name here], go right ahead. But don't think that claiming one product is 'better' than another without FIRST subjecting them to identical, controlled conditions testing means diddly squat in the real world when it comes to proving that ONE is superior to the OTHER. Beyond that, it's purely a subjective, personal opinion. |
I wonder if most of you realize that the hardware you're posting on this forum with was made in China or Taiwan. Guess it means it's crap too right? Best go out and buy an all american made computer...oh wait you can't.  I too have yet to see in any of the Aimpoint/Tacpoint threads conclusive evidence that the Aimpoint is worth the extra $200+ for the chunk of glass. I'd like to see or if I had the funding do some serious destructive tests on both of them, I live in the high desert and although it doesn't get as hot as the sandbox I've got shit they don't like volcanic rock. |
Lumpy you hit the nail right on the head, there are several guys who are pushing the Tacpoint and are trying to create a viable excuse for comparing the Tacpoint to the Aimpoint. To the other guy, The fact remains if you guys want a cheap red dot you could simply buy a BSA for 30 bucks instead of spending the 120 thats required for the Tacpoint. The true reason behind buying the Tacpoint is it looks cool and you did not have to spend the exta cash to get the cool look. The fact that some guys push the Tacpoint speaks very poorly of them, I cannot understand why someone would put a 30 to 40 dollar optic on their 600 to 1000 dollor rilfe. Comparing rifle companies to rifle companies is another poor excuse, these companies know that their products will be firing live ammo and have very large overhead to insure that they produce a good product. Hakko makes cheap optics period. They do not have to insure anything other then the product turns on before shipping. Its your money, spend it where you wish, just do not try to down play the real world quality of the Aimpoint as an excuse for you wasting your hard earned cash. I am one of the cheapest bastards you will meet, most of my gear comes 2nd hand off the EE and I have purchased real Aimpoints for under 200. In fact one of my EE Aimpoints broke after 3 months, it was 9 years old and looked like it had been dragged behind a truck. I called Aimpoint told them how long a had it how it looked and sent it in for repair. One week later I had a brand new M2 sitting on the front step as they could not repair it. Now thats customer service, try that with Tacpoint. |
AKM you are 100% correct, thats my real problem with this crap. Some poor guy is going to be taken for the real thing as he does not know any better. |
Sorry you feel that way, I am just stating the truth. The fact that I'm a Mod has nothing to do with this. |
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I have to agree with Boom in his assertion that why most people seem to get the Tacpoint is: 1) It is a red dot and they are very nice for quick target aquisition 2) It is low cost (comparatively) 3) It looks like an Aimpoint So why not just go for a BSA? It is a reddot that users on this board have used on their rifles and had no problems holding zero. It's a reddot and does not have to hold up to the abuses of a SHTF rifle right? It's only a plinker right? It's only $30 and less than 1/3 the price of a Tacpoint (and 1/10 the price of a Aimpoint) right? Oh, but wait a minute, it does not look like an Aimpoint. 
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Sometimes you are SOL and have to buy a Chinese made product. If I have a choice though, I will not be supporting them.... C4 |
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So is this an "ATN vs. NightForce" thing? I guess the only thing I can see is that they blatantly copied the aesthetics of the Aimpoint. Otherwise, it seems functional. Another of their other sights, Hakko MKII Bed-24, Actaully has good reviews for accurcacy and durability on a variety of calibers. I don't think putting an ATN 5x33 on a rifle is a bad thing, I have had great success (not with the vari-powers, just their fixed 5x). I also own NightForce.. They both hold zero, and have both been banged up and in wide environments without problems. I didn't see where they are marked "for electric gun use" at all, so I don't think this falls into the the recent "toys on guns" stuff. However, I do firmly believe you should spend a good chunk on optic and mount, anywhere from $300 to $1800, to take full advantage of the accuracy the rifle might have. (Usually 1/2 cost of rifle for low end, and cost of rifle+ for high end) To each his own, but to buy something so people think "Hey, you have an Aimpoint", being the primary factor in deciding your purchase? I think that is just ignorant/poser-ish. Especially if that is the ONLY reason you pick that optic over equal quality red dots in lower priceranges. (no, I didn't read the other threads, I am just trying to clear up my confusion on this one first...) |
I agree, I would pick one up for one of my plinkers if I ran across a deal but it would never go on my primary M4s. |
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God, the ignorance from the Gucci Gear, Internet, Keyboard Commandos is suffocating! LIVE AND LET LIVE. If some of us want a Tacpoint or two, LEAVE US BE. It's OUR MONEY, NOT YOURN. I don't try to tell you what to do with YOUR MONEY. Why do some of you feel obligated to tell others what to do with THIER MONEY? Get over it already. Leave the people who want to buy Tacpoints alone. Let us conduct our own peer review and discuss it's merits amonst ourselves and maybe LEARN A THING OR TWO about what community means and what it means to review a new product on the market. |
You know you're about a jackass. YOU are the guy that wanted to know how to scratch up your gun so it looks worn and the rest of us that want to buy high quality gear are Keyboard Commandos. You discredit yourself everytime you touch the keyboard. |
If you're going to make personal attacks, at least tell the truth instead of lying....please. You know damn well the subject of my post was concerning a BEAD BLAST FINISH, yet you resort to lying when making a personal attack just to prove somekind of irrelevant point. 
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| This is precisely why I saw no need for this useless thread. And being a MOD has everything to do with it. Since afterall a person is NOT selected to be a MOD if they use poor judgement. Then it should follow that a MOD should use good judgement when they are posting. This is going to turn into a bickering, back biting, flamefest! |
Well I'm sorry you see it as such, I see it as telling the truth about a POS optic that people will think is a good choice in real life when in fact it is a poor choice. Me being a Mod in the Feedback & Comments forum has nothing to do with the Optics side of this site. If guys want to bitch and complain that's fine with me, this is the internet. I tell the truth, if people don't like the way I say something there is nothing I can do about. I simply tell it like it is. The Tacpoint is a cheap knockoff look alike, Sorry if the truth hurts. Let the bitching begin!!! who cares if they complain? I don't, my feelings won't be hurt. and remember!........ THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE
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That "How do I scratch my Rifle to look like an ACTUALL Operator" thread is one of the funniest things I've read on this site in a long time! Why folks kept trying to make sense of it and answering back is still a mystery to me! 
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That was funny as hell, I can't wait until the next stupid thread from that guy. |
Again, lying to make a personal attack instead of addressing the REAL ISSUE of the post cause you have no ground to stand on regarding the current ISSUE AT HAND. BTW, what you have in quotes IS NOT a quote from me, it's all in your own imagination. You obviously, like many others, have the reading, spelling and comprehension skills of a 1st grader. Do yourself a favor and continue your education past a 1st grade level, you'll get much farther in life. |
You obviously can't hold an arguement on this current issue, so the personal attacks are the last resort of the keyboard commando. The amount of brown-nosing you must have stooped down to become a Moderator is BEYOND MY LURID IMAGINATION. 
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Here is the original discussion for everyone to see. They can make up there own minds. |
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And the only SANE conclusion is that I was looking for advice on a GLASS BEAD BLAST FINISH to get a faded look to it. I wasn't asking for advice on tying my guns up to a rope and dragging them down a gravel road...... I wasn't asking for advice on where the best place to throw guns around in gravel was....... I wasn't asking for advice on what I should use to scratch up the finish....... The title is clear enough even the most uneducated, illiterage ignoramus....... Fun thread tho......I didn't mind the ball bashing too much.....
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Airsoft? I don't own ANY AIRSOFT. All my guns are REAL.....all 11 of them. 2 Colt 1911's 2 Beretta 92's 1 Irish Enfield no2 mk4 1 M4-gery 1 OOW BAR 1918 Semi-Auto 1AR15 A2 HBAR Colt Prebie 1 Springfield XD 9mm 1 Springfield Armory Imbel SAR-48 Preban 1 Norinco Trenchgun Reproduction |
Hmmm... Wear simulation techniques? Glass Bead Blast...on low power?
Looks pretty clear to me that you are trying to simulate wear on your rifle. Did you suddenly change your mind? |
What part of the title and body of the post do you not understand? SE HABLA ENGLISH? Wear Simulation Techniques Glass Bead Blast Finish. wear Audio pronunciation of "wear" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (wâr) v. wore, (wôr, wr) worn, (wôrn, wrn) wear·ing, wears v. tr. Wear \Wear\, v. i. 1. To endure or suffer use; to last under employment; to bear the consequences of use, as waste, consumption, or attrition sim·u·la·tion Audio pronunciation of "simulation" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (smy-lshn) n. The act or process of simulating. tech·nique Audio pronunciation of "techniques" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (tk-nk) n. 1. The systematic procedure by which a complex or scientific task is accomplished. 2. also tech·nic (tknk) 1. The way in which the fundamentals, as of an artistic work, are handled. 2. Skill or command in handling such fundamentals. See Synonyms at art1. glass Audio pronunciation of "glass" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (gls) n. Any of a large class of materials with highly variable mechanical and optical properties that solidify from the molten state without crystallization, are typically made by silicates fusing with boric oxide, aluminum oxide, or phosphorus pentoxide, are generally hard, brittle, and transparent or translucent, and are considered to be supercooled liquids rather than true solids. bead Audio pronunciation of "bead" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (bd) n. A small, round object, blast Audio pronunciation of "blasting" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (blst) n. A forcible stream of air, gas, or steam from an opening, especially one in a blast furnace to aid combustion. fin·ish Audio pronunciation of "finish" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fnsh) 1. The last treatment or coating of a surface: 2. The surface texture produced by such a treatment or coating. 3. A material used in surfacing or finishing. |
I can read just fine. And umm.. well... It seems you want to have a gun that has been actually used in harsh conditions. Hate to say it, but that is from your own "refined" post (w/definitions) --HKocher was faster... woops While editing ran a word through Merriam Thesauraus: "Simulating" act, affect, bluff, counterfeit, fake, feign, pretend, put on, sham Related Word ape, copy, imitate, mimic; play-act, pose |
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Ya know SPR after reading the title and thread - I gotta agree with Boom & Crew. You asked for wear simulation techniques - with a 'sub question' will low power bead blasting do the job. 1) Your title & thread indicate you were looking to simulate wear. What kind of shooter want to simulate wear? If you're shooting the rifle will wear on its own. 2) Nothing you wrote precluded the suggestions of other techniques. The 'drag on gravel road' would do what you were looking for. You can tell your buds you were Mech Infantry and it got dragged behind your Bradley. |
HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa |
LIKE I SAID BEFORE ON PAGE 3 of that discussion......I have an M16A2 complete upper that is about 85% finish and I wanted to bead blast the LOWER to MATCH.....cause I feel like a a preppy girl who isn't matching head to toe so I wanted to bead blast the LOWER to get a faded FINISH something that matched the UPPER. Hell, after getting my balls busted down to buck private......I decided to just rebarrel with an A3 Upper and maybe do an A4 replica like LUMPIE. I suppose now you're going to bust my balls summore for having an 85% upper on a BRAND SPANKING NEW LOWER cause it won't MATCH. I'm a fucking fashion victim, ok? I admit it. I can't color coordinate to save my life and I always wear mis-matched socks......I'm not a fashion elitist like the rest of you, ok? I admit it. I'm trailer trash, you're blue blood, rich boys! Teee heee heee! 
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Jesus H. Tapdancing Christ  "Any good techniques for simulating wear......or the smooth finish after years and years of handling?" "I'm talking about that beautiful patina rifles acquire after many years of service.....like our M16A2's, you know they have that smooth patina that's almost silky smooth." "Is it being a poser to build M4's like the spec ops guys?" "Please retake your remedial English 101 exams" "I am looking for a smooth, SATINY PATINA....almost a semi-gloss, faded type of BLUED finish." "I really wish public education could be overhauled to cut the neo-PC-visionist history and teach kids how to READ AND UNDERSTAND ENGLISH." "Why do they make finishes in Satin and why is a finish on a gun called Patina? What exactly do you call it?" "Manganese Phosphate? Zinc Phosphate? You'd sound like a science nerdlinger." This guy has to be a regular using a troll account to fuck with people. Not sure if I should laugh or cry. I think I'll log off and swallow a 230gr hollowpoint instead  Edited to add: Oh yeah, back to the issue at hand. Here is my problem with the Tacpoint believers: "It will function just as good as any Aimpoint, unless it fails before an Aimpoint would fail. Without standardized, repeatable testing saying that a Tacpoint is "just as good" is nothing more than foolish, irresponsible tripe. |
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How the hell did this discussion degenerate into busting my ballz? I certainly wasn't the one who threw this off topic. I apologize to the author of this thread for the childish behaviour exhibited by some of the established members here, I realize you want information about the Tacpoint which I've been more than happy to discuss but there are some who can't hold an arguement without resorting to personal attacks. I apologize for them, on their behalf. |
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maybe ppl want a tacpoint so that when the SHTF they will be familiar with the general workings and sight picture of the Aimpoint mounted on his picked-up, fallen comrades rifle. ht this discussion is stupid...if you dont like the tacpoint, dont buy it...end of discussion, stop pushing your beliefs and values on others. if you want all your gear to be Milspec, join the armed forces. BTW< i have neither an aimpoint or tacpoint. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - TacPoint (Page 1 of 3)
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