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Posted: 5/11/2015 8:12:40 AM EDT
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I'm working on converting my "SHTF" gun from a postban "built in Massachusetts" into a free-state version. Realistically this is going to be a range toy, possibly with some 2-gun / 3-gun matches down the road.
I keep looking at all the options and it's just overwhelming. Keymod, M-Lock, Quad Rail, all the different manufacturers and their radical weight differences, rail covers or no covers, clamping vs screw mounts around the barrel nut, etc., and then it only gets more overwhelming when I look into gas block options. How important would you consider a freefloat handguard? I'm kinda tempted to say "fuck htis" and go with a standard M4 handguard and FSB. |
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All my ar's have ff handguards. I mainly got them for the comfort, looks and the ability to add a rail if I need/want too. I also have a quad rail, it's heavy and bulky. The key mod and m lok I've never used but also don't really interest me either.
I have both of these and they are comfortable/lightweight, sturdy and tough. Diamondhead vrs t 10.5" (top) samson evolution 12.37" (bottom) 
This if the Midwest industries 10" ff quad 2 piece.its very solid heavy and bulky. 
Gas blocks I just use a lo pro except on my 7.62x39 and 308 I use an adjustable one. Hope this helps with some of your questions. I'm sure others my have more technical answers since I only did the style and comfortable route with the ff handguards. Gl op |
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Quoted:
I'm working on converting my "SHTF" gun from a postban "built in Massachusetts" into a free-state version. Realistically this is going to be a range toy, possibly with some 2-gun / 3-gun matches down the road. I keep looking at all the options and it's just overwhelming. Keymod, M-Lock, Quad Rail, all the different manufacturers and their radical weight differences, rail covers or no covers, clamping vs screw mounts around the barrel nut, etc., and then it only gets more overwhelming when I look into gas block options. How important would you consider a freefloat handguard? I'm kinda tempted to say "fuck htis" and go with a standard M4 handguard and FSB. Unless you have a lot of (pic rail mounted) accessories and/or are going for groups, a FF doesn't get you much. |
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Quoted:
I'm working on converting my "SHTF" gun from a postban "built in Massachusetts" into a free-state version. Realistically this is going to be a range toy, possibly with some 2-gun / 3-gun matches down the road. I keep looking at all the options and it's just overwhelming. Keymod, M-Lock, Quad Rail, all the different manufacturers and their radical weight differences, rail covers or no covers, clamping vs screw mounts around the barrel nut, etc., and then it only gets more overwhelming when I look into gas block options. How important would you consider a freefloat handguard? I'm kinda tempted to say "fuck htis" and go with a standard M4 handguard and FSB. FF rails are pretty simple, IMO. You may have to take a while to decide what you want but it isn't that hard. If you were planning on using a standard FSB, then shave down a FSB or use a standard low profile gas block. All of mine except my "clone" builds have free float hand guards. There isn't really a reason not to on an AR15. You can get great quality easy to install tubes for $100. |
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Unless you have a lot of (pic rail mounted) accessories and/or are going for groups, a FF doesn't get you much. Quoted:
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I'm working on converting my "SHTF" gun from a postban "built in Massachusetts" into a free-state version. Realistically this is going to be a range toy, possibly with some 2-gun / 3-gun matches down the road. I keep looking at all the options and it's just overwhelming. Keymod, M-Lock, Quad Rail, all the different manufacturers and their radical weight differences, rail covers or no covers, clamping vs screw mounts around the barrel nut, etc., and then it only gets more overwhelming when I look into gas block options. How important would you consider a freefloat handguard? I'm kinda tempted to say "fuck htis" and go with a standard M4 handguard and FSB. Unless you have a lot of (pic rail mounted) accessories and/or are going for groups, a FF doesn't get you much. The purpose of a free float rail is NOT to mount a lot of stuff. What it gets you, and you get it is huge doses, is repeatable accuracy - no shift in point of impact. The M4 handguard attaches to the barrel. It exerts pressure directly on the barrel. If you are just going to shoot at targets inside 25 yards or at human torso size targets out to 100, a free float is probably is a waste. But: If you shoot prone at targets at 100 yards, or shoot off of bags or a bench or a bipod, variations in where you apply pressure to the barrel by where you hold the handguard, how you load up a shooting sling, and where and how you position the handguard on the bags or bench rest, can change point of impact dramatically. I've personally seen a 6" shift in point of impact from point of aim at 100 yards with an M4 handguard sitting on bags, and the same rifle shot with a tight sling. A 6" shift in POI at 100 yards is 12" at 200. That will cause a complete miss on a torso target. You do not need to be a precision shooter shooting for "groups" to benefit. A free float rail eliminates pressure on the barrel ahead of the barrel nut. Changes in bag location, sling tightness, presence or absence of a bipod, and other forms of pressure on the barrel are eliminated and the point of impact does not change. If you do precision shooting with your AR, a good free float rail makes a huge difference in uniformity and repeatability of your shot placement. FWIW: My free float rail has no "stuff" on it other than a sling attachment point on the top rail just behind the folding front sight, and a small removable 3" mini-rail at the bottom front to locate a bipod. That is it. |
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The purpose of a free float rail is NOT to mount a lot of stuff. What it gets you, and you get it is huge doses, is repeatable accuracy - no shift in point of impact. The M4 handguard attaches to the barrel. It exerts pressure directly on the barrel. If you are just going to shoot at targets inside 25 yards or at human torso size targets out to 100, a free float is probably is a waste. But: If you shoot prone at targets at 100 yards, or shoot off of bags or a bench or a bipod, variations in where you apply pressure to the barrel by where you hold the handguard, how you load up a shooting sling, and where and how you position the handguard on the bags or bench rest, can change point of impact dramatically. I've personally seen a 6" shift in point of impact from point of aim at 100 yards with an M4 handguard sitting on bags, and the same rifle shot with a tight sling. A 6" shift in POI at 100 yards is 12" at 200. That will cause a complete miss on a torso target. You do not need to be a precision shooter shooting for "groups" to benefit. A free float rail eliminates pressure on the barrel ahead of the barrel nut. Changes in bag location, sling tightness, presence or absence of a bipod, and other forms of pressure on the barrel are eliminated and the point of impact does not change. If you do precision shooting with your AR, a good free float rail makes a huge difference in uniformity and repeatability of your shot placement. FWIW: My free float rail has no "stuff" on it other than a sling attachment point on the top rail just behind the folding front sight, and a small removable 3" mini-rail at the bottom front to locate a bipod. That is it. Quoted:
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I'm working on converting my "SHTF" gun from a postban "built in Massachusetts" into a free-state version. Realistically this is going to be a range toy, possibly with some 2-gun / 3-gun matches down the road. I keep looking at all the options and it's just overwhelming. Keymod, M-Lock, Quad Rail, all the different manufacturers and their radical weight differences, rail covers or no covers, clamping vs screw mounts around the barrel nut, etc., and then it only gets more overwhelming when I look into gas block options. How important would you consider a freefloat handguard? I'm kinda tempted to say "fuck htis" and go with a standard M4 handguard and FSB. Unless you have a lot of (pic rail mounted) accessories and/or are going for groups, a FF doesn't get you much. The purpose of a free float rail is NOT to mount a lot of stuff. What it gets you, and you get it is huge doses, is repeatable accuracy - no shift in point of impact. The M4 handguard attaches to the barrel. It exerts pressure directly on the barrel. If you are just going to shoot at targets inside 25 yards or at human torso size targets out to 100, a free float is probably is a waste. But: If you shoot prone at targets at 100 yards, or shoot off of bags or a bench or a bipod, variations in where you apply pressure to the barrel by where you hold the handguard, how you load up a shooting sling, and where and how you position the handguard on the bags or bench rest, can change point of impact dramatically. I've personally seen a 6" shift in point of impact from point of aim at 100 yards with an M4 handguard sitting on bags, and the same rifle shot with a tight sling. A 6" shift in POI at 100 yards is 12" at 200. That will cause a complete miss on a torso target. You do not need to be a precision shooter shooting for "groups" to benefit. A free float rail eliminates pressure on the barrel ahead of the barrel nut. Changes in bag location, sling tightness, presence or absence of a bipod, and other forms of pressure on the barrel are eliminated and the point of impact does not change. If you do precision shooting with your AR, a good free float rail makes a huge difference in uniformity and repeatability of your shot placement. FWIW: My free float rail has no "stuff" on it other than a sling attachment point on the top rail just behind the folding front sight, and a small removable 3" mini-rail at the bottom front to locate a bipod. That is it. This is the only part of your post I partially agree with for most people; a huge difference? Not likely. Some difference? Perhaps. You anecdotally saw a "huge" difference with a rail; most will not. Most people do not need nor will they notice the difference a FF makes. Why? Because they are most likely shooting 4MOA ammo. If you do everything else (i.e. trigger, ammo, barrel, sights, etc.) and bench rest your rifle for groups, then a FF might make a difference. For an HD/SHTF rifle like the OP is talking about, a FF is not necessary. Now if he were absolutely doing 3-Gun tomorrow, not maybe someday, I would consider a FF. So, I reiterate, unless you have a lot of accessories and/or are going for groups, a FF doesn't get you much. |
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What kind of shooting do you plan to do with this AR? Will a 2" POI shift at 100 yards matter? I'm obsessed with accuracy on some of my rifles, but for others 4 MOA is good enough and I don't bother with a FF rail. Goal is 4 MOA as light weight as I can get it. More accuracy would be better, but no worse than 4 MOA. Basically I want my group to stay entirely within the Aimpoint dot with XM193. I figure that's already pushing the limits of the ammo, so a 2" shift at 100 yards could be problematic. |
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What kind of shooting do you plan to do with this AR? Will a 2" POI shift at 100 yards matter? I'm obsessed with accuracy on some of my rifles, but for others 4 MOA is good enough and I don't bother with a FF rail. Don't sling up with a properly tensioned shooting sling, or you will see your "two inch" POI shift is a full 6 MOA. I know. But you don't have to believe me. There are muliple reports of this here and most other forum. I suppose those in the 4 MOA is "good enough" crowd don't know how to use a shooting sling either. Thats ok. With 4 MOA ammo combined with a 6 MOA shift, half of the shots will be 10 MOA from your point of aim. Good enough for government work, right? |
| I have 1 of my AR's FF (ALG M-lok 13") because it's scoped. I don't mount accessories on my rifles, other than a sling mount (if not already on there) and sights/RDS, so I actually prefer standard type poly handguards. I just prefer the way they look, feel, and their ability to take serious punishment. Don't forget that a FF rail transfers the abuse it receives DIRECTLY to the barrel nut (the last place I'd want tolerances messed with). I'd not feel comfortable punishing a FF like I would a poly handguard, but that's just my perception. |
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Goal is 4 MOA as light weight as I can get it. More accuracy would be better, but no worse than 4 MOA. Basically I want my group to stay entirely within the Aimpoint dot with XM193. I figure that's already pushing the limits of the ammo, so a 2" shift at 100 yards could be problematic. Quoted:
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What kind of shooting do you plan to do with this AR? Will a 2" POI shift at 100 yards matter? I'm obsessed with accuracy on some of my rifles, but for others 4 MOA is good enough and I don't bother with a FF rail. Goal is 4 MOA as light weight as I can get it. More accuracy would be better, but no worse than 4 MOA. Basically I want my group to stay entirely within the Aimpoint dot with XM193. I figure that's already pushing the limits of the ammo, so a 2" shift at 100 yards could be problematic. Quoted:
since everyone here maintains a 300 hundred yard zero with a known 600 yard hold over and always slings up and shoots subMOA,a free float front end is required on every truckgun. Magpul Moe hand guards are a nice set up for 35 bucks Doc_Zox has (had) your answer. |
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Don't sling up with a properly tensioned shooting sling, or you will see your "two inch" POI shift is a full 6 MOA. I know. But you don't have to believe me. There are muliple reports of this here and most other forum. I suppose those in the 4 MOA is "good enough" crowd don't know how to use a shooting sling either. Thats ok. With 4 MOA ammo combined with a 6 MOA shift, half of the shots will be 10 MOA from your point of aim. Good enough for government work, right? Quoted:
Quoted:
What kind of shooting do you plan to do with this AR? Will a 2" POI shift at 100 yards matter? I'm obsessed with accuracy on some of my rifles, but for others 4 MOA is good enough and I don't bother with a FF rail. Don't sling up with a properly tensioned shooting sling, or you will see your "two inch" POI shift is a full 6 MOA. I know. But you don't have to believe me. There are muliple reports of this here and most other forum. I suppose those in the 4 MOA is "good enough" crowd don't know how to use a shooting sling either. Thats ok. With 4 MOA ammo combined with a 6 MOA shift, half of the shots will be 10 MOA from your point of aim. Good enough for government work, right? OP is not shooting precision rifle; no one wraps their arm in their sling for HD/SHTF. |
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Goal is 4 MOA as light weight as I can get it. More accuracy would be better, but no worse than 4 MOA. Basically I want my group to stay entirely within the Aimpoint dot with XM193. I figure that's already pushing the limits of the ammo, so a 2" shift at 100 yards could be problematic. Quoted:
Quoted:
What kind of shooting do you plan to do with this AR? Will a 2" POI shift at 100 yards matter? I'm obsessed with accuracy on some of my rifles, but for others 4 MOA is good enough and I don't bother with a FF rail. Goal is 4 MOA as light weight as I can get it. More accuracy would be better, but no worse than 4 MOA. Basically I want my group to stay entirely within the Aimpoint dot with XM193. I figure that's already pushing the limits of the ammo, so a 2" shift at 100 yards could be problematic. Well if you want light weight I'd say a BCM KMR 9 or 10 inch rail. I don't know if you can get any more light weight than that besides the 7 inch version which weighs 5ozs with hardware. |
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Well if you want light weight I'd say a BCM KMR 9 or 10 inch rail. I don't know if you can get any more light weight than that besides the 7 inch version which weighs 5ozs with hardware. Quoted:
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What kind of shooting do you plan to do with this AR? Will a 2" POI shift at 100 yards matter? I'm obsessed with accuracy on some of my rifles, but for others 4 MOA is good enough and I don't bother with a FF rail. Goal is 4 MOA as light weight as I can get it. More accuracy would be better, but no worse than 4 MOA. Basically I want my group to stay entirely within the Aimpoint dot with XM193. I figure that's already pushing the limits of the ammo, so a 2" shift at 100 yards could be problematic. Well if you want light weight I'd say a BCM KMR 9 or 10 inch rail. I don't know if you can get any more light weight than that besides the 7 inch version which weighs 5ozs with hardware. The online specs for the BCM KMR seem almost too good to be true. Are they really that light? 6oz for a 9" rail makes them more than an ounce lighter than their nearest competition. |
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Don't sling up with a properly tensioned shooting sling, or you will see your "two inch" POI shift is a full 6 MOA. I know. But you don't have to believe me. There are muliple reports of this here and most other forum. I suppose those in the 4 MOA is "good enough" crowd don't know how to use a shooting sling either. Thats ok. With 4 MOA ammo combined with a 6 MOA shift, half of the shots will be 10 MOA from your point of aim. Good enough for government work, right? Quoted:
Quoted:
What kind of shooting do you plan to do with this AR? Will a 2" POI shift at 100 yards matter? I'm obsessed with accuracy on some of my rifles, but for others 4 MOA is good enough and I don't bother with a FF rail. Don't sling up with a properly tensioned shooting sling, or you will see your "two inch" POI shift is a full 6 MOA. I know. But you don't have to believe me. There are muliple reports of this here and most other forum. I suppose those in the 4 MOA is "good enough" crowd don't know how to use a shooting sling either. Thats ok. With 4 MOA ammo combined with a 6 MOA shift, half of the shots will be 10 MOA from your point of aim. Good enough for government work, right? Well I was assuming that if he's using an aimpoint and M193, he wouldn't be slinging up. So if the OP is not attaching the sling to the barrel and putting tension on it with a proper shooting sling, I think 4MOA is perfectly doable with a non-FF rail. |
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4moa is plenty doable with out floating the barrel. But WHERE the 4moa is going to be is going to depend on how he's making the shot.
I've tried using a Block 1.5 clone in tactical matches and the accuracy is not even good enough to make hits at 100yds and out. Not good enough for much IMO. I have been very competitive otoh, with a Block II .... |
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The longer I'm in the AR game, the fewer FF rails I have on my rifles. Just depends on what you do with it. I use mine as ranch rifles so they need to be pretty accurate from any position. I stock up on MK262 and 69gr match loads. To take advantage of that, shooting from prone, over the hood of a truck, on a bipod, off a tree limb, or whatever I have to do to get steady, it needs to be floated if I'm gonna make a half decent hit past 75 yards or so. |
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