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That upper in those pics are nice Dobs!
![]() I might consider Braceman, but I might test one upper with my local machinist. He does custom slides for my 3-Gun friends. I have not decided yet, as I'm still in the market for one more receiver. I have a lead on a few, but already spent a lot of money on other rare goods, so we'll see. Now that you have a closer picture of the 14th slot, I am still convinced that it is still not truly in spec. But it looks like to me in the 90%-95% range, and you still could mount a back up iron sight. I cannot stress enough on how much Braceman did a fantastic job despite the precious 13 slot positions on a M4 spec rail. The Canadian spec slots are slightly forward to make room for the 14th slot. |
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That upper in those pics are nice Dobs! ![]() I might consider Braceman, but I might test one upper with my local machinist. He does custom slides for my 3-Gun friends. I have not decided yet, as I'm still in the market for one more receiver. I have a lead on a few, but already spent a lot of money on other rare goods, so we'll see. Now that you have a closer picture of the 14th slot, I am still convinced that it is still not truly in spec. But it looks like to me in the 90%-95% range, and you still could mount a back up iron sight. I cannot stress enough on how much Braceman did a fantastic job despite the precious 13 slot positions on a M4 spec rail. The Canadian spec slots are slightly forward to make room for the 14th slot. View Quote ![]() |
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Braceman had a 100% real, issued to the SAS upper to clone from for the work he is doing to these uppers. I know because I sent it to him!
A couple of things to consider * A Canadian Weaver spec rail is different to the UK spec rail on the upper. UK spec are real 1913 rails. * The height of the UK spec rail is higher than a Canadian one, it is the same height as the US F marked FSB size rails. * The difference between a US upper rail and the UK spec is that on a UK upper, the gap between the front of the receiver and the start of the first rail is 9.7mm, on a US spec upper its 11.6mm. This is why the spacing is ever so slightly off when you add the last slot, as you need to keep the rail spacing the same, so it's 2.1mm offset from a UK rear slot. * This is THE most accurate you can make a US spec upper, which given the complete lack of Canada spec uppers being available, is basically the best we can get. It is actually better than the Canadian upper I think as they don't use the correct height rails if you're going for accuracy and also of course it's much easier to find/source F marked FSBs here. |
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Braceman had a 100% real, issued to the SAS upper to clone from for the work he is doing to these uppers. I know because I sent it to him! A couple of things to consider * A Canadian Weaver spec rail is different to the UK spec rail on the upper. UK spec are real 1913 rails. * The height of the UK spec rail is higher than a Canadian one, it is the same height as the US F marked FSB size rails. * The difference between a US upper rail and the UK spec is that on a UK upper, the gap between the front of the receiver and the start of the first rail is 9.7mm, on a US spec upper its 11.6mm. This is why the spacing is ever so slightly off when you add the last slot, as you need to keep the rail spacing the same, so it's 2.1mm offset from a UK rear slot. * This is THE most accurate you can make a US spec upper, which given the complete lack of Canada spec uppers being available, is basically the best we can get. It is actually better than the Canadian upper I think as they don't use the correct height rails if you're going for accuracy and also of course it's much easier to find/source F marked FSBs here. View Quote |
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To close out the subject of the British Diemaco 1913 rail versus what you can make from US parts, here are some pictures of a John Brace modified upper against an actual real issued British upper. Here is the front, showing the aforementioned slight offset between where the slots begin. These uppers are aligned perfectly both front and rear to illustrate exact differences. http://i65.tinypic.com/23h6tsi.png Here is a close up of the rear, showing the John Brace rear scallop perfectly matches the UK issue rear scallop and the additional slot milled into the rear. http://i67.tinypic.com/24y0d48.png Here is a zoomed out overall view http://i67.tinypic.com/23ubptx.png The upper used here is a standard M4 upper which I procured in the raw so that the anodizing would be perfect. Before it was anodized I sent it to John Brace along with the original, hence the as close as possible results. The only real difference is the new upper has M4 cuts in the upper, thus it actually works better with US barrels. View Quote |
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$5800?
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It's also a complete rip off. It is NOT a L119 upper by any stretch of the imagination. I don't know if the seller bought it under false pretenses or if the seller is the one with no scruples, but there are multiple red flags. http://i63.tinypic.com/33tmp7l.png 1. Colt Canada never had contract over-run L119A1s 2. The seller wont send further pictures (because I suspect he knows its a fake). Who refuses to send further info on a $6k upper?! 3. The upper is a US made M4 upper which is a 6520 take-off, it does not have the Canada anodizing, it is M4 marked, it has T markings and most telling, it it not the Canada profile. 4. The barrel is a US made specialized Armament barrel, it has an F marked front sight and is not a Diemaco made barrel 5. The KAC RAS is not the correct UK spec RAS 6. The bolt is not a Diemaco bolt 7. Most worrying, the proof marking on the bolt is fake. The only thing real Colt Canada about that entire ad is the carry handle. Because of the last point, I am pretty sure someone is willingly and knowingly faking the upper. The thing is, it's clearly been faked by someone who knows jack shit about L119A1 uppers, because everything is wrong once you take more than a cursory glance. This thread, once I finish it out, will help you make more clone correct uppers at a price less than half of what that guy is asking. View Quote |
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The receiver/rail dimensions are interesting. It appears there was some variation in exactly what was being issued at different times. It would be cool to put together a timeline of known-issued L119A1 uppers but there just isn't a ton of information out there that I could find. Elucidate, I think this is the most comprehensive collection of this stuff that I've seen, thanks for putting it together.
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Hey, Mkmckinley. Where can I get those non-F marked front sights (with the bayo lug) with the "crown" forge codes? I need them for my classic C7 and C8 projects. I already have a Colt A2 HBAR front sight with bayonet lug shaved off at the factory for my L119A1. (It's already got a great early "Colt grey" on it as well!)
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Quoted: Hey, Mkmckinley. Where can I get those non-F marked front sights (with the bayo lug) with the "crown" forge codes? I need them for my classic C7 and C8 projects. I already have a Colt A2 HBAR front sight with bayonet lug shaved off at the factory for my L119A1. (It's already got a great early "Colt grey" on it as well!) View Quote |
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Quoted: You're going for the trifecta? I'm not sure where you could get those parts on the commercial market or if it's even possible to buy them. I've never seen any for sale but Elucidate seems like the authority on that stuff. I honestly didn't know people were building replicas of these things until I saw this thread. View Quote And for the trifecta? More so... Let's just say that I have become pretty ambitious the last year. |
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Quoted: It's hard to find the right forge codes for any part to make a rifle period correct. And for the trifecta? More so... Let's just say that I have become pretty ambitious the last year. View Quote |
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I managed to gather more parts, and I got some more on the way. I'll post photos soon.
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I just bought a 10” SAS IUR barrel.
What else can you tell me about it? Why that length and not 10.3” or 10.5”? Can I still use my Geissele Mk8 rail on this build? What is the length of the rail/handguard in inches on the 10” IUR upper? |
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I just bought a 10” SAS IUR barrel. What else can you tell me about it? Why that length and not 10.3” or 10.5”? Can I still use my Geissele Mk8 rail on this build? What is the length of the rail/handguard in inches on the 10” IUR upper? View Quote You can find more info on the SAS L119A2 here. |
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I also managed to score a 1-13 marked KAC SAS handguard set. Previously I purchased a SAS lower and I noticed a difference... https://i.imgur.com/0Fx8rqHl.jpg https://i.imgur.com/OEXFUKIl.jpg I believe the (newer) left SAS lower rail on the right in the bottom picture is labeled 16-28 and is ordered in line with a T-marked M4 upper. The right lower rail is marked 1-13 and is ordered in the opposite direction with the assumption that there is no T-markings on the upper receiver. Are the 16-28 rails issued on the Royal Marines L119A1? Or is this a recent production change? Anyway, I sold the (possibly bought on KAC web store) 16-28 SAS rail and I'll use the 1-13 marked set. Just though I mention it. View Quote |
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I am working on a project very similar to the L119A1 but it will be just a C8CQB. I was wondering if someone could answer a little technical question about the M4 RAS. On KAC store you can buy the Canadian Edition or the standard and purchase the UK under rail separate. When looking at the cost I could purchase the standard and the lower rail cheaper then the Canadian version. Is there any difference in the two in regards to the TOP section? it seems you US gents have more Diemaco then us up here, so I am going to be using the new Colt Canada upper receiver. The new upper is 14 slot mil-std-1913. My other question is because of the slight difference between weaver and 1913, will the M4 RAS line up with my flat top receiver or will I have a "step" between them however small? (im not talking about the gap between the delta ring.)
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I am working on a project very similar to the L119A1 but it will be just a C8CQB. I was wondering if someone could answer a little technical question about the M4 RAS. On KAC store you can buy the Canadian Edition or the standard and purchase the UK under rail separate. When looking at the cost I could purchase the standard and the lower rail cheaper then the Canadian version. Is there any difference in the two in regards to the TOP section? it seems you US gents have more Diemaco then us up here, so I am going to be using the new Colt Canada upper receiver. The new upper is 14 slot mil-std-1913. My other question is because of the slight difference between weaver and 1913, will the M4 RAS line up with my flat top receiver or will I have a "step" between them however small? (im not talking about the gap between the delta ring.) View Quote From my experience, there should be no "step" on any Diemaco/Colt Canada upper that is marked 1913. They should line up just fine. Weaver rails only sit slightly lower where it is unnoticeable until you look very closely. I do believe it is possible to acquire a Devtek D upper in Canada from surplus C8-CQB uppers instead of the newer C2085 uppers. In the US, all we can resort to is Colt USA made uppers on Diemaco forgings with the Devtek D. |
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Quoted: Based on MSRP, it looks like you can save a whopping $100US by buying the standard set and the SAS bottom rail separately. I always found that interesting. Used KAC rails can always be found cheaper on the ARFcom EE. For Canadians, I don't know where you go to buy them, but I do know they are available up there. I can't answer if the markings are different if bought separately, but they should be the same markings of 14/16-28 on the top section. New production should be white markings, don't know about the matching screws of either being hex head or flat head. From my experience, there should be no "step" on any Diemaco/Colt Canada upper that is marked 1913. They should line up just fine. Weaver rails only sit slightly lower where it is unnoticeable until you look very closely. I do believe it is possible to acquire a Devtek D upper in Canada from surplus C8-CQB uppers instead of the newer C2085 uppers. In the US, all we can resort to is Colt USA made uppers on Diemaco forgings with the Devtek D. View Quote |
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Not sure If I have shared these pics, but it shows the differing manufacturing processes used by Colt Canada. If you look closely here you'll see the model markings are laser engraved and not stamped like Colt USA. The serial number is stamped, they use a big stamping wheel for that. This picture also shows the UK spec ACOG, which has some different markings, no bible stampings and a big UID sticker. http://i66.tinypic.com/wk0p7a.jpg Here is a close up of one of the lowers http://i67.tinypic.com/2z6grwy.jpg View Quote 20" rifle, and the crown markings were on the barrel and bolt. |
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Great thread.
I had a good talk with some of the Colt Canada engineers at SHOT either this year or last. They said they don't do the same things the US M4 TDP calls for on the bolt. They cocked an eye when they heard about bolt failure in USSOCOM guns, because they just weren't seeing it really with the Diemaco guns after decades of heavy use with SAS, SBS, and CanSOF units. They follow different processes to ensure a long-lasting bolt, as opposed to US DoD TDP for the M4 bolt proof load-testing. Bill Alexander (who used to work for UK MoD) said that he and other companies prefer not to do HPT across the lots because of the micro fractures it induces, which can only propagate from then-on, leading to early failure. Instead, he prefers to do batch testing with destructive processes on a percentage of the bolts, proof load those, then MPI, then grind the faces off and immerse in resin to see grain structure alignment. If there are issues with that percentage, you test more in the batch and reject or pass based on what you see. KAC prefers not to HPT the SR25 bolts as well, whereas against all recommendations from people that knew better, the Army still demanded it on the M110 SASS. Guys in Ranger Regiment who used both systems said they had bolts breaking on M110s all the time, but not SR25s. There is value in those Colt Canada bolts, and they will last very long in an upper with the receiver face squared. |
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bumping this thread back up for any new pics/info
i'm still gathering parts for my build ![]() |
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Who makes and where can we get the Diemaco-like black buttpad shown on p. 4?
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Elucidate, just wonder if you have a picture of your rifle complete? I am building my clone but unfortunately I will be using new CC parts. Trying to get Diemaco here in Canada will cost an arm and a leg. The barrel has been the hardest part for me to source. I didn't want to use just any barrel and after a few years of searching have finally found a dealer to help me get a factory new 10" CC.
One more question, I haven't picked up the KAC rail yet but it will be added to my build. Would you have been content with just a standard M4 rail or for you did it make all the difference that it is the UK version. The M4 RAS is $400 CAD and the UK is $775 CAD. When I hit 50 posts I will post my L119A2 in the other thread. |
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Great thread, the attention to detail is outstanding.
I saw this knights rail on gunbroker; https://www.gunbroker.com/item/786796751 Looks to be the correct one for this build. |
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Question on the ACOG used on this carbine, is the reticle calibrated for the 10 inch barrel and ammo used?
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This is a build on my list!
Did we figure out a place to find those correct looking selectors? |
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This is a build on my list! Did we figure out a place to find those correct looking selectors? View Quote It looks like Charlies customs has them listed currently. |
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I was looking for the non ambi. With the correct tick mark.
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Elucidate, just wonder if you have a picture of your rifle complete? I am building my clone but unfortunately I will be using new CC parts. Trying to get Diemaco here in Canada will cost an arm and a leg. The barrel has been the hardest part for me to source. I didn't want to use just any barrel and after a few years of searching have finally found a dealer to help me get a factory new 10" CC. One more question, I haven't picked up the KAC rail yet but it will be added to my build. Would you have been content with just a standard M4 rail or for you did it make all the difference that it is the UK version. The M4 RAS is $400 CAD and the UK is $775 CAD. When I hit 50 posts I will post my L119A2 in the other thread. View Quote |
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Very nice thread! I just picked up a CC IUR 3rd Gen 15.7. It's an overrun from the British Contract. Now I have to hunt down all the other CC goodies
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So I have a Surefire FH557-216A sitting in the parts box. It doesn’t have the “jagged teeth” on the inside of the tines. Is this a later production? What suppressor mounts to it? https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/325471/EFA8C085-6B35-46B1-96B8-E5018A871968-787575.jpg https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/325471/574E0FBD-AEE9-4586-A909-E7AFF8CA0CC8-787576.jpg https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/325471/691B1ED8-6AFD-4E12-9610-8ADD44BBB97D-787577.jpg https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/325471/CC5C7F2D-B81A-42B3-BDE5-9532DB2C83B9-787580.jpg https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/325471/E65D4A0D-F20C-49B3-9419-58A487B4A260-787582.jpg https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/325471/414DD33B-D6CB-44F6-80C4-0699470FD5E0-787583.jpg View Quote ![]() |
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