AR Sponsor
Posted: 11/21/2010 2:10:30 PM EDT
|
Have you also read hundreds of threads concerning, how long mags have been fully loaded and are just as new and there´s no better way to store them?
Well, read away! Some time ago I bought a "pre loved" CZ 75. The previous owner loved it, because he had it expertedly nickel plated. The Gun caused instantaneous jams at the range, after initial cleaning and checking. With Magtech regular FMJ ammo, wich gives zero problems in ALL my other 9 mm´s. Bought a replacement mag - no jams. ( factory 25 rounder ;-) :-) :-) :-) :-) ) Bought a Mec Gar mag - no Jams Replaced mag spring in original mag with Wolff replacement - no jams. I think it´s well known, that CZ 75´s were "undersprung" in the 80´s, meaning very weak springs were used, and/or the spring life was considered reallly limited. This helps us here, as it aggreviates the spring power losing action, and helps the discussion here! Soooo - please follow my considerations: mag with new spring UNLOADED - will ALWAYS conserve better spring power than stored fully loaded. I thing that´s self explanatory. A spring ONCE compressed to or over max, will lose power. Period. Now there are folks saying, that storing a mag fully loaded will not harm springs. I strongly disagree! But some folks say, that constantly changing "ready to go" mags ( unloading one, loading up the other ), or shooting them, will put more strain an the spring that leaving it fully loaded, but not "working" it! SOOO the real question is, if constantly "using" the spring works it more, than just leaving it fully compressed. That leaving it in the mag, minimal compressed, will be easier on the spring than the two other scenarios, is self evident. Now that gun I bought has a weak spring. No doubt. ANY other mag worked 100 % in the gun, and changing the mag spring cured the troubles with the original mag. and now please think with me: the gun jammed nearly every shot, when I got it! So if the original owner had shot it all day long, he would have had LOTS of jams. But he kept the gun with an exceptional weak spring!! ( he seems to have been a rather bad boy, as he didn´t sell the gun, it wa sold by the Police ) So MY conclusion ist, as hardly and gun will ever be shot constantly, or cycled all the time, for 24 hours a day, 7 Days a Week, 365 days a Year ... the ACCUMULATED stress of constant fully loaded beats the "working" of the mags pring, which >might< bestressier, but simply is not 100 % of the time!! And therefore leaving a mag fully loaded is the most stress you can put oon your Mag spring. TO LEAVE IT AT MAX COMPERESSION IS THE WORST THING TO DO TO YOUR MAG SPRING!! It puts max strain on the spring ALL the time! To use it, may strain the mag spring more, per cycle!!! But you don´t work the mag all the time, that´s simply too much ammo or time !! So I leave my mags empty, except one for ready to go. Okay, may be one mag or two for several guns, but you get the idea ... ;-) I change those mags not too often - 2 or 3 months for every mag "on duty". And I have several mags, which after initial testing were never used, rest with mag spring hardly ever compressed, ready for me in ITSHTF scenarios. What do you think? And PLEASE no "my Dad / Uncle / Great Garnddaddys´granddad had the mag loaded since Civial War days and I took it in 2010 and it workd perfetly for 1000 rounds" ... replys ... ;-) –– I am sure, they are true, but they don´t state, that the mag spring might be BETTER with another storage method - which is the theme of this thread! Have fun, stay safe, Hermann |
|
Quoted:
One problem is do you know how teh previous owner used/kept teh mag? Is the mag nickel plated too? This- You have no idea how much that bad mags was used prior to you having it. People who buy a firearm just to have a firearm don't buy extra mags. When one of the mags goes bad that they use all the time they think something is wrong with the firearm. I'm not trying to split hairs but this is an AR15 mag forum, two completely different magazine designs that contain two different springs with two different compression ratios. |
|
"A spring ONCE compressed to or over max, will lose power" You're assumption is that a fully loaded mag compresses the spring to or over max. I'm sure the mag designer included a pad so that even when fully loaded it was not close to max compression. My mags stay fully loaded. Everything I've ever read about mag springs has said that cycling the spring (loading and unloading) is how they are weakened....not by static tension of being loaded. |
|
You cannot formulate a conclusion based on a sample size of one.
KBAD is absolutely correct. Here are a few dozen AR mags in different flavors that have been fully loaded for over a decade: 
I check on them every six months or so, and they are fine. That ammo is kept at my unheated family camp. |
|
It seems I made my point not explicite enough.
I said, that 1.) storing mags UNLOADED will keep the spring stronger than loaded. For some reason this is not what some people here want to hear. 2.) it may be ( we don´t KNOW! ) that constantly working a spring will weaken it more than having it fully compressed for the same timescale. BUT NOBODY shoots ( or unloads / loads ) his mags ALL THE TIME, so fully compressed is 100% of the time, but shooting or cycling is perhaps 1 % of the time ... therefore fully loaded WILL weaken the spring more, than shooting it occasionally! I did NOT say you cant´t store your mags loaded for looong times! I only say it´s not the best for the springs, I would only load up some mags, and store most of them UNLOADED! ) –––––––––––––––––––––––– another example: you have two identical mags, from whomever, for whichever gun. You want/need to replace the springs. e.g. in mags bought used. Now try the following: replace both springs with new springs of the same make, whether USGI in AR mags or Wolff in any other mag. Keep one mag unloaded, load up the other. Compare spring power after three months. There WILL be a difference, and you´ll discover I´m right. ––-> so keeping a mag unloaded preserves spring power better. Period. ––––––––––––––––––––––––- I´ve done this, and it´s true. Sometimes a new spring will make it extremely difficult to load up the mag, after three months spring under pressure it will load much more easily, whereas the unloaded mag will have a noticeably stronger spring. ( yes, even unloaded it´s under pressure, so the unloaded mag will perhaps load more easily than first time, but I´m not sure: I bought a Mauser Parabellum from the 70´s, NIB. Mags were impossible tol load mkore than 6 rounds ( remenber -> Gun pristine, but shot some rounds ) After letting the mags "sit" with 6 rounds for a week I was able to put in the seventh round. After two more weeks the eights went in with considerable force . So even with the spring compressed slightly in the unloaded mags, it was necessary to "age" the springs for some weeks to even be able to load them to capacity!! ) Don´t believe me, try it!––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––- Now it would also possible to use three mags: one unloaded one fully loaded one unloaded / loaded ten times a day. EVERY day! I confess, I don´t know, if variant 2 or 3 "ages" the spring more, but with a spring tension device it should be possible to measure this. Of course there´s a difference, whether you cycle the mags 10 times one day in the week, or 100 times EVERY day. But anyway: ––––>>>> to store a mag UNLOADED, will preserve spring power! <<<––––- I rest my case ... Hermann |
|
Hermann,
Read it, learn it, live it. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_163_27/ai_99130369/?tag=content;col1 |
|
Hermann- Noone is disputing that an unload mag will retain its power. Those who are in the "know" are going off the premise that an unloaded magazine is a useless magazine. With that being said, a fully loaded and compressed spring is no worse off than a spring which is not compressed at all. It is the constant loading/unloading of the spring that eventually wears it out. My background is in automotive so the example that comes to mind which best explains this is the springs on your automobile. They are under constant compression and the continuous compressing/decompressing on these springs is what eventually causes them to need to be replaced.
When you put definitive mag spring argument in your title in the forum, you invited the users here to debunk your assertions. ETA- Spelling |
|
Quoted:
It seems I made my point not explicite enough. I said, that 1.) storing mags UNLOADED will keep the spring stronger than loaded. For some reason this is not what some people here want to hear. 2.) it may be ( we don´t KNOW! ) that constantly working a spring will weaken it more than having it fully compressed for the same timescale. BUT NOBODY shoots ( or unloads / loads ) his mags ALL THE TIME, so fully compressed is 100% of the time, but shooting or cycling is perhaps 1 % of the time ... therefore fully loaded WILL weaken the spring more, than shooting it occasionally! I did NOT say you cant´t store your mags loaded for looong times! I only say it´s not the best for the springs, I would only load up some mags, and store most of them UNLOADED! ) –––––––––––––––––––––––– another example: you have two identical mags, from whomever, for whichever gun. You want/need to replace the springs. e.g. in mags bought used. Now try the following: replace both springs with new springs of the same make, whether USGI in AR mags or Wolff in any other mag. Keep one mag unloaded, load up the other. Compare spring power after three months. There WILL be a difference, and you´ll discover I´m right. ––-> so keeping a mag unloaded preserves spring power better. Period. ––––––––––––––––––––––––- I´ve done this, and it´s true. Sometimes a new spring will make it extremely difficult to load up the mag, after three months spring under pressure it will load much more easily, whereas the unloaded mag will have a noticeably stronger spring. ( yes, even unloaded it´s under pressure, so the unloaded mag will perhaps load more easily than first time, but I´m not sure: I bought a Mauser Parabellum from the 70´s, NIB. Mags were impossible tol load mkore than 6 rounds ( remenber -> Gun pristine, but shot some rounds ) After letting the mags "sit" with 6 rounds for a week I was able to put in the seventh round. After two more weeks the eights went in with considerable force . So even with the spring compressed slightly in the unloaded mags, it was necessary to "age" the springs for some weeks to even be able to load them to capacity!! ) Don´t believe me, try it!––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––- Now it would also possible to use three mags: one unloaded one fully loaded one unloaded / loaded ten times a day. EVERY day! I confess, I don´t know, if variant 2 or 3 "ages" the spring more, but with a spring tension device it should be possible to measure this. Of course there´s a difference, whether you cycle the mags 10 times one day in the week, or 100 times EVERY day. But anyway: ––––>>>> to store a mag UNLOADED, will preserve spring power! <<<––––- I rest my case ... Hermann you did it once do you understand statistics and scientific research? your results are not compelling I'm pretty sure that I learned about spring rates in Physics and I'm comfortable with my methods |
|
Quoted:
Hermann- Noone is disputing that an unload mag will retain its power. Those who are in the "know" are going off the premise that an unloaded magazine is a useless magazine. With that being said, a fully loaded and compressed spring is no worse off than a spring which is not compressed at all. It is the constant loading/unloading of the spring that eventually wears it out. My background is in automotive so the example that comes to mind which best explains this is the springs on your automobile. They are under constant compression and the continuous compressing/decompressing on these springs is what eventually causes them to need to be replaced. When you put definitive mag spring argument in your title in the forum, you invited the users her to debunk your assertions. this, there's nothing definitive about this thread except that it's a definite waste of time |
|
The Title was intentionally, to bait responses ;-)
Who says I have no idea of Physics and Mechanics? I have a Master´s Degree on a technical University. I KNOW that the "all mags have to be kept loaded all the time and it won´t hurt the springs even if ever kept so" is a DOGMA at this Forum ( and others ). Still, my above example is there, it´s TRUE, and it´s EASY for you to try it for yourself! Replace the spings in two identical mags with identical replacement springs and check: load one, keep unloaded the other ... and measure spring power after some months ... And who in He** ever said that all, that´s on the net, is TRUE??? I bet I know more about Physics than the author of the article in the Link above, posted by a nice Fellow ( thanks, BTW! ). Yes, I dare to doubt the "common knowledge", to tackle a Dogma of ARFcom: springs age more in loaded mags than in unloaded ones. Where´s the problem? I´ll store most of my mags unloaded, and those "ready to go" loaded. And replace the springs on those. But not often - several years will do. Want another quote? LISTEN TO "THE GURU": "I keep my gun cocked and locked all the time. This will put strain on the main spring. I recommend to replace it every two years. No Biggie" C: Col Jeff Cooper. Have fun, stay safe, keep your powder dry and always have good springs ;-), Hermann |
|
Do remember that springs will usually take an initial set. After that, a quality spring built with the proper material and heat-treat and with the proper helical-wound design with no 'dip-back', etc. will fatigue due to compression cycles and not from constant compression (assuming that it's not over-compressed past its design limits).
|
| I believe there is a fundamental error that you have assumed, and that is that the longer a mag spring remains compressed, the weaker it gets. In fact, as I understand it, it is an incremental weakening that happens with each cycling of the spring. This would mean that the first time you load a mag it very very slightly looses some compression force, but doesn't loose any more until the next cycle of the spring. It can remain in this condition indefinitely and still retain the same strength/force. Just like bending a piece of metal: the more you flex it, the weaker it gets. It is not deteriorated by staying in a bent position for an extended length of time, but rather the repeated cycling of the bending that finally weakens it to the point of breaking. Same thing with springs. |
|
Quoted:
Do remember that springs will usually take an initial set. After that, a quality spring built with the proper material and heat-treat and with the proper helical-wound design with no 'dip-back', etc. will fatigue due to compression cycles and not from constant compression (assuming that it's not over-compressed past its design limits). +1 |
Take a piece of wire and bend it back and forth 180* in the same place a bunch of times and tell me what happens, bend another one 45* in the same place and tell me what happens. Now take another piece of wire cut from the same spool and bend it 180* once and tell me what happens, bend another to 45*. The one cycled several dozen times at 180* will break, but the one bent and left is still unbroken and strong as is the one bent to 45* and cycled. If you cycle the 45* bent wire a coupla hundred times, it will eventually fail What can we learn form this? It is the cycling of the wire past a certain point that makes it fail before its projected life cycle. Improper heat treatment is the biggest cause of failure in springs, but with a degree from a technical school, you already knew that.
|
|
Quoted:
My background is in automotive so the example that comes to mind which best explains this is the springs on your automobile. They are under constant compression and the continuous compressing/decompressing on these springs is what eventually causes them to need to be replaced. And the springs on a car will outlast the the life of the car. Shocks and struts need replacement from time to time, but the springs last virtually forever. |
|
Quoted:
I believe there is a fundamental error that you have assumed, and that is that the longer a mag spring remains compressed, the weaker it gets. In fact, as I understand it, it is an incremental weakening that happens with each cycling of the spring. This would mean that the first time you load a mag it very very slightly looses some compression force, but doesn't loose any more until the next cycle of the spring. It can remain in this condition indefinitely and still retain the same strength/force. Just like bending a piece of metal: the more you flex it, the weaker it gets. It is not deteriorated by staying in a bent position for an extended length of time, but rather the repeated cycling of the bending that finally weakens it to the point of breaking. Same thing with springs. To be honest, that´s the ONLY ONE intelligent reply. "some mags stored for ... worked perfectly" "anyone knows, that springs get weak with ..." BS - proof is wanted! Now, and I DO NOT KNOW the answer, but I´ll try this as quick as possible: two mags, same manufaturer, same age. two replacement springs. one loaed up, and then unloaded. the second one, loaded and kept loaded. Stored, and then, after three months, spring strenght check. A scientific one, please. Wanna bet ??![/ ;-) Hermann |
|
Spring makers build in a "pre-set" into compression springs to offset any miniscule loss from initial use.
They also are stress-relieved to remove residual bending forces produced by the coiling operation. Your mag springs can be compressed solid without further permanent set. I have several mags that have been loaded to max for 15 years that function fine. No malfunction of any kind. If springs are a problem, probably were not made right from the start. |
|
Quoted:
Who says I have no idea of Physics and Mechanics? I have a Master´s Degree on a technical University.
The Title was intentionally, to bait responses ;-) Who says I have no idea of Physics and Mechanics? I have a Master´s Degree on a technical University. I KNOW that the "all mags have to be kept loaded all the time and it won´t hurt the springs even if ever kept so" is a DOGMA at this Forum ( and others ). Still, my above example is there, it´s TRUE, and it´s EASY for you to try it for yourself! Replace the spings in two identical mags with identical replacement springs and check: load one, keep unloaded the other ... and measure spring power after some months ... And who in He** ever said that all, that´s on the net, is TRUE??? I bet I know more about Physics than the author of the article in the Link above, posted by a nice Fellow ( thanks, BTW! ). Yes, I dare to doubt the "common knowledge", to tackle a Dogma of ARFcom: springs age more in loaded mags than in unloaded ones. Where´s the problem? I´ll store most of my mags unloaded, and those "ready to go" loaded. And replace the springs on those. But not often - several years will do. Want another quote? LISTEN TO "THE GURU": "I keep my gun cocked and locked all the time. This will put strain on the main spring. I recommend to replace it every two years. No Biggie" C: Col Jeff Cooper. Have fun, stay safe, keep your powder dry and always have good springs ;-), Hermann I assume that you mean that you have a Masters from a technical university? I guess the curriculum wasn't heavy on grammar. It's hard to take anything that you say seriously when you sound like an idiot. Also it would be the definitive thread, not the definite thread. |
|
[
Who says I have no idea of Physics and Mechanics? I have a Master´s Degree on a technical University.
I assume that you mean that you have a Masters from a technical university? I guess the curriculum wasn't heavy on grammar. It's hard to take anything that you say seriously when you sound like an idiot. Also it would be the definitive thread, not the definite thread. [/quote] Would you like to do this discussion in German, as it´s my native Language? How good is your German? ;-) Hermann |
|
Quoted:
The Title was intentionally, to bait responses ;-) Who says I have no idea of Physics and Mechanics? I have a Master´s Degree on a technical University. I KNOW that the "all mags have to be kept loaded all the time and it won´t hurt the springs even if ever kept so" is a DOGMA at this Forum ( and others ). Still, my above example is there, it´s TRUE, and it´s EASY for you to try it for yourself! Replace the spings in two identical mags with identical replacement springs and check: load one, keep unloaded the other ... and measure spring power after some months ... And who in He** ever said that all, that´s on the net, is TRUE??? I bet I know more about Physics than the author of the article in the Link above, posted by a nice Fellow ( thanks, BTW! ). Yes, I dare to doubt the "common knowledge", to tackle a Dogma of ARFcom: springs age more in loaded mags than in unloaded ones. Where´s the problem? I´ll store most of my mags unloaded, and those "ready to go" loaded. And replace the springs on those. But not often - several years will do. Want another quote? LISTEN TO "THE GURU": "I keep my gun cocked and locked all the time. This will put strain on the main spring. I recommend to replace it every two years. No Biggie" C: Col Jeff Cooper. Have fun, stay safe, keep your powder dry and always have good springs ;-), Hermann Lame. |
|
Quoted:
I've noticed the same thing that you have regarding the results of your "test." The mag which was stored fully loaded was significantly weaker than the mag stored unloaded. Indeed, before the loaded storage, the mag had been cycled a few times (which is how I knew that it was too tight). Clearly, the storage time weakened the spring more than did the first few cycles.
[...] Now, and I DO NOT KNOW the answer, but I´ll try this as quick as possible: two mags, same manufaturer, same age. two replacement springs. one loaed up, and then unloaded. the second one, loaded and kept loaded. Stored, and then, after three months, spring strenght check. A scientific one, please. [...] Hermann At that time, I had come to the conclusion that full compression (I mean fully compressed to the limit of the magazine) that is held for a period of time weakens a spring more than one quick compression and release. However, the metalurgists say otherwise. As with you, I've wondered about it, but I'm willing to accept the word of the metalurgists. But I still have questions. The metalurgists seem to be saying that once a spring reaches it's "set" then any further weakening will come during each cycle and not from a fully compressed state. Of course, there are caveats: the spring must be properly designed, etc., as pointed out by Justin-Beard, above. If I understand correctly, that means that the spring weakens differently dpending upon whether the "set" has been reached or not. I suppose that's possible. But still, I have some questions. Once the "set" has been reached, is one cycle the same whether it is held fully compressed for 100 years or whether it is released immediately? Or is there some tradeoff: One year equal x compression cycles? Does a fully compressed spring weaken more than a partially compressed spring (a downloaded mag)? |
|
Quoted:
[
Who says I have no idea of Physics and Mechanics? I have a Master´s Degree on a technical University.
I assume that you mean that you have a Masters from a technical university? I guess the curriculum wasn't heavy on grammar. It's hard to take anything that you say seriously when you sound like an idiot. Also it would be the definitive thread, not the definite thread. Would you like to do this discussion in German, as it´s my native Language? How good is your German? ;-) Hermann [/quote] Seeing as this is an English speaking forum....English? Do you speak it MFer? |
|
Come on, guys! Give him a break - he meant well. It's hard enough to be able to communicate effectively on the internet and even more so if you had to do it in a foreign language.
Hermann: Pre-measure magazine springs of a few 30 rounds AR magazines (quality magazines - say Pmags, Colts, CProducts, Adventure Line, etc). Then fully load those magazines and set them aside for a couple of years. At the end of that time period, measure the length of the springs - tell us how much plasticity had set in. I bet you it's not going to be enough to matter (if any). A magazine spring is much longer than a magazine body: ie that said spring must be pre-compressed substantially when inserted into the magazine's body. So even if a small amount of plastic deformation actually set in, it will not matter, because there will still be enough spring force. Now, if you're talking about a defective spring and a substantial plastic strain was induced, then that's not a good thing. Verstehen Sie? 
ETA: Hermann, my hat's off to you for coming here and discuss this in English. My English is much worse than yours and my German.....well, I can order beers  with it. Don't pay attention to the rough and gruff people on this site - they are just a bunch of cranky Teddy Bears
|
|
I appreciate his contributions and my issues are with calling anything a "definitive" thread, plenty of other people with more time and resources have conducted research and experiments with more conclusive results...it just seems to me that he thinks that he's the first person who has ever thought of this, has conducted experiments on a very limited scale and is trying to pass this off as a major breakthrough.
|
|
;-)
No, I don´t think it´s a major Break Through, I am simply convinced, that the general consensus about spring load theories at ARFCom is wrong! "Viel Feind, viel Ehr´ " ;-) I recognise, that springs take an initial set, and then age "slower". You are fully correct to remind me of this. I also am with you, that well designed springs, especially AR Mag springs, even fully compressed, will give a looooooong life of duty! But Hell has to freeze over before ( I believe that ) a spring MORE compressed will "age" as "little" as a spring >slightly< ( = in the mag, unloaded ) compressed. ;-) Keep cool, Gents! ;-) Hermann |
| Then what's really the point? I personally have shot mags that have remained loaded a year or more and they functioned perfectly. I know people who have shot mags loaded longer than that with no difference. If your point is that in a laboratory there is a measurable difference but real world it doesn't matter then who cares? I'd rather have a loaded mag that maybe after 10 years I need to replace the spring then have an unloaded mag. I just don't know where you're going with this...even if the amount is measurable it's not enough to affect performance. |
|
Quoted:
Some of my mags are loaded and some are not. Sooooooooo ?  If that's directed to me then my point is that there's not enough evidence to advocate keeping your mags unloaded. Storing them loaded over a long period of time may compress the spring more than storing them unloaded but I don't think it's enough to affect function. I'm not saying that if you have some mags laying around unloaded then you're a loser. |
|
Hand stretch your springs lightly when you clean them and don't worry about it.
I have a couple of GI range mags with thousands of rounds through them and they still work. I bought them used, who knows how many before me. They have not been upgraded in any way by me, just taken care of. Explain weak springs to my mags please. Convince them to stop working. Oh, and I am with the loaded mag group. Don't hurt nothing. |
|
Hermann:
First we need to clarify what you mean by the term "aging" - that term can mean differently when being used in different context. I assume in this context, by "aging" you mean the spring will experience plastic deformation after being compressed for a long time - i.e. time dependent plastic deformation? I don't see how time dependent plastic deformation can happen in room temperature when the applied pressure is less than the yield strength of the spring's material. If the temperature is getting close to the homologous temperature, that can happen due to greater dislocation mobility, development of new slip systems, etc. But in room temperature, the mechanism that will allow for such effects to happen just isn't there. And again, if plasticity did occur, it would be minute compared to the pre-compression being given to the spring in order for it to be able to fit inside the magazine body, it shouls be a non issue. |
AR Sponsor