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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Trigger for a SWAT Rifle (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 2/26/2009 10:21:55 AM EDT
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Recently, I have joined the local SWAT and am making some changes to my LMT. I do like my toys to be shiny and enviable (I know I'm probably the only guy around here with that problem). However, my primary concerns (by far) are getting the most dependable and safest equipment. I have experience with the factory single stage trigger in my LMT and the Rock River NM 2-stage triggers in a couple of my other rifles. Based on what I've read, the Geissele triggers seem to be among the best available. So, I am trying to make sure I use the most appropriate trigger for my application. With the heavier pull weight, Geissele's Service trigger sounds like the wisest choice for this rifle. I would value input from folks who agree or disagree with this trigger choice, again for a dedicated SWAT (i.e. close quarter combat where weapon reliability, safety of self, team, and perps are all very real concerns).
For the "specs-junkies," the config on this AR is as follows: LMT upper and lower receiver 14.5" chrome-lined barrel w/ a pinned flash-hider SOPMOD stock Tango down battle grip (planning to switch to a Magpul Miad for consistency w/ my other rifles) Troy folding rear buis Aimpoint M4S Daniel Defense railed handguard LaRue FUG Surefire 961 |
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The Geissele Service trigger is arguably the best two stage available. I've been replacing all the RR NM triggers on my AR's with Geissele's, either the Service, or DMR offerings. On a LMT set up for short work I've found the Service to be an excellent trigger, with very short reset time, and exceptionally crisp second stage break if precision delivery is preferred. Too, the Service can be "pulled through" and in effect utilized as a single stage if desired. The Geissele Hi-Speed triggers really need to be sampled first hand to be fully appreciated. I had retrofitted all the OEM AR triggers with RRA NM's, been satisfied with the upgrade, then had the opprotunity to test a friend's Geissele. Now, the RRA NM's are being sidelined and replaced with Geissele's. .02 - |
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The Geissele Service trigger is arguably the best two stage available. I've been replacing all the RR NM triggers on my AR's with Geissele's, either the Service, or DMR offerings. On a LMT set up for short work I've found the Service to be an excellent trigger, with very short reset time, and exceptionally crisp second stage break if precision delivery is preferred. Too, the Service can be "pulled through" and in effect utilized as a single stage if desired. The Geissele Hi-Speed triggers really need to be sampled first hand to be fully appreciated. I had retrofitted all the OEM AR triggers with RRA NM's, been satisfied with the upgrade, then had the opprotunity to test a friend's Geissele. Now, the RRA NM's are being sidelined and replaced with Geissele's. .02 - +1 on the Geissele trigger, best AR trigger you can get IMO. |
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Thank you for the replies. They are all helpful and seem to support what I've read. Obviously, I've reviewed the "Trigger/Fire Control Groups tested and evaluated - the "BEST" trigger for you???" thread that is stickied in this forum. Having no first-hand experience with this trigger and therefore having to generally accept what I've read on this site, relative to this trigger, as correct (or at least more informed than me, since I have so little experience with various triggers), it seems clear that the Geissele triggers are superb. I am having some trouble finding a good description of the differences between the different Geissele models. Relative to using the "SSA" (Super Semi-Automatic) designation, I believe this encompass all of their triggers. I want to confirm that the "SSA" is not a model separate from the DMR, National Match, and Service trigger. I do understand that the spring weight is lowest for the Match and highest for the Service, and between those two for the DMR and that these are all 2-stage triggers. If there is a piece of that puzzle that I am missing or incorrect about, please enlighten me.
Relative to this SWAT, they seem relatively open to some individuality among the firearms we are using, within reason. I do appreciate you pointing-out that concern, climbr1. It is something I have considered. Related to how they compare to the RRA NM triggers, paddle3, I am a little worried about how much better this trigger will be. The thought of replacing all of the triggers scares me a little. What an expensive undertaking! |
| Hmm. Have there been many issues with the Service trigger set screws coming out or causing trouble at inopportune times? Perhaps the simpler SSA design is more appropriate for my purposes. I'm not sure what the spring weights are on the SSA, though. Are they on the heavier end of the Geissele spectrum or too light to constitute a safe service rifle? I realize that question is a little subjective. All the same, I would value some educated opinions on that. For what it is worth, I have a new Service trigger siting on the table next to me (arrived today). I'm not afraid to embark on the hunt for another trigger, though. |
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Consider Bill Springfields work on your stock trigger.
Link : Bill Springfield Joe |
| First question I would ask is what is your departments policy on triggers? Is there a minimum pull weight in the policies? If you can't modify your work weapon can your armorer do it for you? Is there a trigger on the approved list at your department? It would be unfortunate if your weapon came under scrutiny after a shoot and it was out of "spec." |
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Quoted: Related to how they compare to the RRA NM triggers, paddle3, I am a little worried about how much better this trigger will be. The thought of replacing all of the triggers scares me a little. What an expensive undertaking! Regarding how much better the Geissele Hi-Speed triggers are in relation to the RRA NM - think the difference between a Buick and Mercedes. I've utilized the Geissele's for a couple of years and have not experienced any issues or failures. This should give you some notion as to the differences between Service, DMR, and Match triggers: http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=455 |
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Related to how they compare to the RRA NM triggers, paddle3, I am a little worried about how much better this trigger will be. The thought of replacing all of the triggers scares me a little. What an expensive undertaking! Regarding how much better the Geissele Hi-Speed triggers are in relation to the RRA NM - think the difference between a Buick and Mercedes. I've utilized the Geissele's for a couple of years and have not experienced any issues or failures. This should give you some notion as to the differences between Service, DMR, and Match triggers: http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=455 so is the SSA is a different model altogether from the service, dmr, or match? |
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Hmm. Have there been many issues with the Service trigger set screws coming out or causing trouble at inopportune times? Perhaps the simpler SSA design is more appropriate for my purposes. I'm not sure what the spring weights are on the SSA, though. Are they on the heavier end of the Geissele spectrum or too light to constitute a safe service rifle? I realize that question is a little subjective. All the same, I would value some educated opinions on that. For what it is worth, I have a new Service trigger siting on the table next to me (arrived today). I'm not afraid to embark on the hunt for another trigger, though. I can't say I have ever heard of the screws on a Geissele trigger backing out, they are solid. Both the Hi-Speed and SSA/SSF triggers are good to go. |
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Related to how they compare to the RRA NM triggers, paddle3, I am a little worried about how much better this trigger will be. The thought of replacing all of the triggers scares me a little. What an expensive undertaking! Regarding how much better the Geissele Hi-Speed triggers are in relation to the RRA NM - think the difference between a Buick and Mercedes. I've utilized the Geissele's for a couple of years and have not experienced any issues or failures. This should give you some notion as to the differences between Service, DMR, and Match triggers: http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=455 so is the SSA is a different model altogether from the service, dmr, or match? The SSA trigger assembly is entirely different from the Hi-Speed models. |
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SSA is non adjustable Hi Speed is adjustable. The Hi Speed can be had with heavy or light first or second stage springs. Service is both heavy and Match is both light and DMR is one light and one heavy. The SSA has a fixed overtravel/reset length that is like the Hi Speed set to its longest. It wont be as light short or fast in close as the Hi Speed nor have the fast lock time of the Hi Speed. It was built to be drop in and the Hi Speed not only has to be tuned, but in my experience the safety rarely fits a Hi Speed without modification. Sometimes it just sticks a little if your safety/selector is pushed over a bit or the trigger pushed to one side and needs a little dremeling and sometimes the rifle will not function at all untill you widen the safety channel.
The Hi Speed wont work loose. The adjustments have a coupound in the threads that makes adjustments stiff. I actually bent a cheapo allen wrench trying to move my over travel adjutment it was so tight. |
| I have both the Geissele Hi speed set on DMR and a SSA. I would recommend putting the SSA in for the simple fact that if I even breath on my DMR it will go off but then again I have it set that way. To me the SSA seems more predictable then the DMR. Just my $0.02 |
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There is Zero need for a two stage trigger on an M-4. Your M-4 is not a sniper rifle. Two stage triggers are more prone to failure than the standard trigger.
Unless you are currently capable of shooting beyond the accuracy level of the weapon system as it is currently configured, you do not need to upgrade. Stop worrying about spending money on gadgets and go to a carbine class or three...buy ammo and train, not triggers that you don't need and will break. |
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I have both the Geissele Hi speed set on DMR and a SSA. I would recommend putting the SSA in for the simple fact that if I even breath on my DMR it will go off but then again I have it set that way. To me the SSA seems more predictable then the DMR. Just my $0.02 If you want a lighter trigger pull with your DMR HiSpeed trigger, get a set of match springs and install them according to the instructions. Any HiSpeed trigger that "if I even breath on my DMR it will go off " and "the SSA seems more predictable then the DMR" is not set up correctly. |
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There is Zero need for a two stage trigger on an M-4. Your M-4 is not a sniper rifle. Two stage triggers are more prone to failure than the standard trigger. Unless you are currently capable of shooting beyond the accuracy level of the weapon system as it is currently configured, you do not need to upgrade. Stop worrying about spending money on gadgets and go to a carbine class or three...buy ammo and train, not triggers that you don't need and will break. There is a reason that most have recommended the Geissele triggers, they are every bit as reliable as the stock single stage if not more so. Most stock AR triggers suck, I would take a reliable CLEAN breaking 5-6lb two-stage SSA/SSF trigger over a 8-9lb gritty stock trigger any day of the week in a duty gun. There are many that can shoot just fine with the stock trigger but don't kid yourself into believing there is no need for a good trigger in an AR. |
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There is Zero need for a two stage trigger on an M-4. Your M-4 is not a sniper rifle. Two stage triggers are more prone to failure than the standard trigger. Unless you are currently capable of shooting beyond the accuracy level of the weapon system as it is currently configured, you do not need to upgrade. Stop worrying about spending money on gadgets and go to a carbine class or three...buy ammo and train, not triggers that you don't need and will break. There is a reason that most have recommended the Geissele triggers, they are every bit as reliable as the stock single stage if not more so. Most stock AR triggers suck, I would take a reliable CLEAN breaking 5-6lb two-stage SSA/SSF trigger over a 8-9lb gritty stock trigger any day of the week in a duty gun. There are many that can shoot just fine with the stock trigger but don't kid yourself into believing there is no need for a good trigger in an AR. There is no need for it in this application. A precision AR or one with an optic that allows for the shooter to utilize the added potential accuracy that might be gleaned is one thing....a chrome lined CBQ rifle with a red dot optic is not going to be limited by the trigger. The trigger is not the limiting factor. Because of this, the trigger will make no difference. Either way, after two carbine classes, the trigger will have smoothed up nicely. That requires actual training...not just gadgets. There is no two stage trigger that is ever going to be as reliable as a standard trigger from Colt. It just ain't gonna happen...no matter who stamps their name on the side. You are gaining nothing in this application (CQB) and you are losing a lot (reliability over thousands of rounds rapid fire). I am all for mods that improve the rifle as it relates to the need...but it has to be need drive and this mod is not. The money and time would be better spent on ammo and training. You will gain more accuracy from a carbine class than a new trigger. |
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There is Zero need for a two stage trigger on an M-4. Your M-4 is not a sniper rifle. Two stage triggers are more prone to failure than the standard trigger. Unless you are currently capable of shooting beyond the accuracy level of the weapon system as it is currently configured, you do not need to upgrade. Stop worrying about spending money on gadgets and go to a carbine class or three...buy ammo and train, not triggers that you don't need and will break. There is a reason that most have recommended the Geissele triggers, they are every bit as reliable as the stock single stage if not more so. Most stock AR triggers suck, I would take a reliable CLEAN breaking 5-6lb two-stage SSA/SSF trigger over a 8-9lb gritty stock trigger any day of the week in a duty gun. There are many that can shoot just fine with the stock trigger but don't kid yourself into believing there is no need for a good trigger in an AR. There is no need for it in this application. A precision AR or one with an optic that allows for the shooter to utilize the added potential accuracy that might be gleaned is one thing....a chrome lined CBQ rifle with a red dot optic is not going to be limited by the trigger. The trigger is not the limiting factor. Because of this, the trigger will make no difference. Either way, after two carbine classes, the trigger will have smoothed up nicely. That requires actual training...not just gadgets. There is no two stage trigger that is ever going to be as reliable as a standard trigger from Colt. It just ain't gonna happen...no matter who stamps their name on the side. You are gaining nothing in this application (CQB) and you are losing a lot (reliability over thousands of rounds rapid fire). I am all for mods that improve the rifle as it relates to the need...but it has to be need drive and this mod is not. The money and time would be better spent on ammo and training. You will gain more accuracy from a carbine class than a new trigger. Sounds like you know it all, good for you 
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I have both the Geissele Hi speed set on DMR and a SSA. I would recommend putting the SSA in for the simple fact that if I even breath on my DMR it will go off but then again I have it set that way. To me the SSA seems more predictable then the DMR. Just my $0.02 If you want a lighter trigger pull with your DMR HiSpeed trigger, get a set of match springs and install them according to the instructions. Any HiSpeed trigger that "if I even breath on my DMR it will go off " and "the SSA seems more predictable then the DMR" is not set up correctly. Sorry I mean after the first stage. I have about a 16th of a inch travel then the break is it still set up wrong? |
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There is Zero need for a two stage trigger on an M-4. Your M-4 is not a sniper rifle. Two stage triggers are more prone to failure than the standard trigger. Unless you are currently capable of shooting beyond the accuracy level of the weapon system as it is currently configured, you do not need to upgrade. Stop worrying about spending money on gadgets and go to a carbine class or three...buy ammo and train, not triggers that you don't need and will break. Please show me evidence of a Geissele breaking. A friend had a Colt hammer break in half so USGI triggers are not perfect. I have been asking for some time for someone to SHOW ME the problem with a Geissele. A RRA is not a Geissele. A KAC is not a Geissele. |
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I have both the Geissele Hi speed set on DMR and a SSA. I would recommend putting the SSA in for the simple fact that if I even breath on my DMR it will go off but then again I have it set that way. To me the SSA seems more predictable then the DMR. Just my $0.02 If you want a lighter trigger pull with your DMR HiSpeed trigger, get a set of match springs and install them according to the instructions. Any HiSpeed trigger that "if I even breath on my DMR it will go off " and "the SSA seems more predictable then the DMR" is not set up correctly. Sorry I mean after the first stage. I have about a 16th of a inch travel then the break is it still set up wrong? Do you have a heavy first stage and light second stage or a light first stage and heavy second stage? Mine is set up as the latter. 1 pound take up and 2.5 extra pounds for second stage. I dentical weights as my KAC 2 stage with 3.5# spring kit but I reduced the over travel and reset to minimum. I have about 1/8" of take up to get to the second stage. If you have significantly less than 1/8" travel (mine might be just innder 1/8" but it not near 1/16") I think something must be wrong. The travel is not that short, even at minimum. Travel at/after break is perhaps 1/32-1/16" so your reset ends up about the same as your take up... just under 1/8". |
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I have both the Geissele Hi speed set on DMR and a SSA. I would recommend putting the SSA in for the simple fact that if I even breath on my DMR it will go off but then again I have it set that way. To me the SSA seems more predictable then the DMR. Just my $0.02 If you want a lighter trigger pull with your DMR HiSpeed trigger, get a set of match springs and install them according to the instructions. Any HiSpeed trigger that "if I even breath on my DMR it will go off " and "the SSA seems more predictable then the DMR" is not set up correctly. Sorry I mean after the first stage. I have about a 16th of a inch travel then the break is it still set up wrong? Do you have a heavy first stage and light second stage or a light first stage and heavy second stage? Mine is set up as the latter. 1 pound take up and 2.5 extra pounds for second stage. I dentical weights as my KAC 2 stage with 3.5# spring kit but I reduced the over travel and reset to minimum. I have about 1/8" of take up to get to the second stage. If you have significantly less than 1/8" travel (mine might be just innder 1/8" but it not near 1/16") I think something must be wrong. The travel is not that short, even at minimum. Travel at/after break is perhaps 1/32-1/16" so your reset ends up about the same as your take up... just under 1/8". I have a heavy first stage and a light second. I have no way of measuring so I guessed 1/16". After install I had a local smith look at it to see if I had done everything right as this was my first adjustable trigger. He said everything was fine. He also said I could go lighter, so I guess I'm not at the minimum. Thanks for the help. |
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There is Zero need for a two stage trigger on an M-4. Your M-4 is not a sniper rifle. Two stage triggers are more prone to failure than the standard trigger. Unless you are currently capable of shooting beyond the accuracy level of the weapon system as it is currently configured, you do not need to upgrade. Stop worrying about spending money on gadgets and go to a carbine class or three...buy ammo and train, not triggers that you don't need and will break. There is a reason that most have recommended the Geissele triggers, they are every bit as reliable as the stock single stage if not more so. Most stock AR triggers suck, I would take a reliable CLEAN breaking 5-6lb two-stage SSA/SSF trigger over a 8-9lb gritty stock trigger any day of the week in a duty gun. There are many that can shoot just fine with the stock trigger but don't kid yourself into believing there is no need for a good trigger in an AR. There is no need for it in this application. A precision AR or one with an optic that allows for the shooter to utilize the added potential accuracy that might be gleaned is one thing....a chrome lined CBQ rifle with a red dot optic is not going to be limited by the trigger. The trigger is not the limiting factor. Because of this, the trigger will make no difference. Either way, after two carbine classes, the trigger will have smoothed up nicely. That requires actual training...not just gadgets. There is no two stage trigger that is ever going to be as reliable as a standard trigger from Colt. It just ain't gonna happen...no matter who stamps their name on the side. You are gaining nothing in this application (CQB) and you are losing a lot (reliability over thousands of rounds rapid fire). I am all for mods that improve the rifle as it relates to the need...but it has to be need drive and this mod is not. The money and time would be better spent on ammo and training. You will gain more accuracy from a carbine class than a new trigger. I good trigger makes me hit fast. What else is important? It does not mean a good trigger is only useful in a precision set up. It will also help when you have to make a difficult shot (small target, uncomfortable shooting position …). 
I have also seen problems with (doubling) with single stage triggers. A single stage trigger is not guarantee for trouble free service. |
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There is Zero need for a two stage trigger on an M-4. Your M-4 is not a sniper rifle. Two stage triggers are more prone to failure than the standard trigger. Unless you are currently capable of shooting beyond the accuracy level of the weapon system as it is currently configured, you do not need to upgrade. Stop worrying about spending money on gadgets and go to a carbine class or three...buy ammo and train, not triggers that you don't need and will break. Please show me evidence of a Geissele breaking. A friend had a Colt hammer break in half so USGI triggers are not perfect. I have been asking for some time for someone to SHOW ME the problem with a Geissele. A RRA is not a Geissele. A KAC is not a Geissele. Show me a million plus Geissele triggers in service and you will see broken triggers. There are not enough Geissele triggers in service long term for there to be a reliable history of performance. Why do you think there is a documented history of problems with the KAC two stage? Because there are tens of thousands of them in service and they have been used for years... When the Geissele has that kind of documented history, then folks can talk about its long term reliability. Either way, the rule for duty weapons is that the mission drives the gear, not the other way around. There has to be a need for a piece of gear or a modification before you install it on a weapon. There is zero need for a two stage trigger on a CQB weapon. The limiting factor on a chrome lined barreled CQB type weapon with a red dot optic is not the trigger. The money would be better spent on training than a gadget trigger that adds no practical benifit. If it were a DMR or SPR that would be a different story... |
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Related to how they compare to the RRA NM triggers, paddle3, I am a little worried about how much better this trigger will be. The thought of replacing all of the triggers scares me a little. What an expensive undertaking! Regarding how much better the Geissele Hi-Speed triggers are in relation to the RRA NM - think the difference between a Buick and Mercedes. More like Mercedes and a Hyundai. RRA's are a coyote trigger at best. This should give you some notion as to the differences between Service, DMR, and Match triggers: http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=455 |
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Thank you all for the input. I'll be the first to say that I could use more training, lots more. It seems to me that if I had to pick one or the other (more training versus "gadgets"), training is easily what would benefit me the most. However, taking a carbine course is not an option for me, currently. Hopefully, that will change in the future. For now, weekly time on the range with the team is as good as it will get for me in that department. On the other hand, using quality parts on my rifle is currently an option for me. So, I will continue to perseverate on them during the moments of spare time that I have available for perseverating. I appreciate the input on the reliability concerns of a 2-stage trigger. Clearly, info gleaned here must be taken with a grain or two of salt. That having been said, it sounds like the Geissele triggers up to this point have proven to be at least modestly reliable. Perhaps I haven't placed enough weight on that issue, though. Aside from the reliability concern, is there a performance detriment related to having a 2-stage trigger for this type of work? If not and it is only a matter of the trigger being too nice, so to speak, for a chrome-line CQB rifle, I have to admit that I've rarely been ashamed of having something that is too nice for the job (maybe I should be, though).
Anyway, if I go the route of a Geissele in this rifle, it does sound like the SSA is the way to go. I think I've at least decided that. |
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There is Zero need for a two stage trigger on an M-4. Your M-4 is not a sniper rifle. Two stage triggers are more prone to failure than the standard trigger. Unless you are currently capable of shooting beyond the accuracy level of the weapon system as it is currently configured, you do not need to upgrade. Stop worrying about spending money on gadgets and go to a carbine class or three...buy ammo and train, not triggers that you don't need and will break. Please show me evidence of a Geissele breaking. A friend had a Colt hammer break in half so USGI triggers are not perfect. I have been asking for some time for someone to SHOW ME the problem with a Geissele. A RRA is not a Geissele. A KAC is not a Geissele. Show me a million plus Geissele triggers in service and you will see broken triggers. There are not enough Geissele triggers in service long term for there to be a reliable history of performance. Why do you think there is a documented history of problems with the KAC two stage? Because there are tens of thousands of them in service and they have been used for years... When the Geissele has that kind of documented history, then folks can talk about its long term reliability. Either way, the rule for duty weapons is that the mission drives the gear, not the other way around. There has to be a need for a piece of gear or a modification before you install it on a weapon. There is zero need for a two stage trigger on a CQB weapon. The limiting factor on a chrome lined barreled CQB type weapon with a red dot optic is not the trigger. The money would be better spent on training than a gadget trigger that adds no practical benifit. If it were a DMR or SPR that would be a different story... So you say. You are not everyone and everything. I have a Noveske barreled upper (n4) that will do around MOA at a hundred. I use the Eotech ( problem free) and can easily make a good and accurate shot at 200 and yards ( not possible with a 4 MOA Aimpoint). I use the SSA extensively now. One has in excess of 20,000 rounds through it and absolutely not one problem. So I have a barrel that is very though and accurate, and a trigger that is very tough and crisp enough to make a very accurate shot. What is not to like. Remember, your needs are not the needs of all. |
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You are not shooting 1 MOA groups at 100 yards with a non magnified optic.
It just plain ain't happening. If you can do that on demand 5 times in a row, I will gladly eat my words. But here in reality world, you can't. Everybody on the internet can shoot 1 hole 20 shot groups at 500 meters with Wolf ammo and an EO Tech... The fact remains that on a DUTY rifle that is CQB focused, there is zero benifit to a more complicated and expensive two stage trigger that is based on a design that is known to have more mechanical problems that conventional factory triggers. Two stage triggers historically fail more than conventional It is a duty weapon, not a range toy. There has to be a need and a benifit to the modification for it to be worthwile and there is neither for this specific application. CQB...not proned out with a precision optic. |
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You are not shooting 1 MOA groups at 100 yards with a non magnified optic. It just plain ain't happening. If you can do that on demand 5 times in a row, I will gladly eat my words. But here in reality world, you can't. Everybody on the internet can shoot 1 hole 20 shot groups at 500 meters with Wolf ammo and an EO Tech... The fact remains that on a DUTY rifle that is CQB focused, there is zero benifit to a more complicated and expensive two stage trigger that is based on a design that is known to have more mechanical problems that conventional factory triggers. Two stage triggers historically fail more than conventional It is a duty weapon, not a range toy. There has to be a need and a benifit to the modification for it to be worthwile and there is neither for this specific application. CQB...not proned out with a precision optic. 
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You are not shooting 1 MOA groups at 100 yards with a non magnified optic. It just plain ain't happening. If you can do that on demand 5 times in a row, I will gladly eat my words. But here in reality world, you can't. Everybody on the internet can shoot 1 hole 20 shot groups at 500 meters with Wolf ammo and an EO Tech... The fact remains that on a DUTY rifle that is CQB focused, there is zero benifit to a more complicated and expensive two stage trigger that is based on a design that is known to have more mechanical problems that conventional factory triggers. Two stage triggers historically fail more than conventional It is a duty weapon, not a range toy. There has to be a need and a benifit to the modification for it to be worthwile and there is neither for this specific application. CQB...not proned out with a precision optic. Assumptions are always bad. I said the rifle is MOA. That means that when I snap a Nikon Tactical on it it will shoot MOA. That upper has also never failed me. I'm breaking in a new one now. I can make faster CQB hits with my EOtech and much more accurate 100yard shots than I can with an Aimpoint. That is made even easier with a SSA. Hence why I use them. Mine is my duty rifle !. Along with training rifle. Hell, I've been known to shoot a coyote or two with it. What is yours? If I can have the best, then I will buy it and use it! have you ever used a SSA triggger? Let alone used one? Let alone have tens of thousands on rounds with one? |
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You are not shooting 1 MOA groups at 100 yards with a non magnified optic. It just plain ain't happening. If you can do that on demand 5 times in a row, I will gladly eat my words. But here in reality world, you can't. Everybody on the internet can shoot 1 hole 20 shot groups at 500 meters with Wolf ammo and an EO Tech... The fact remains that on a DUTY rifle that is CQB focused, there is zero benifit to a more complicated and expensive two stage trigger that is based on a design that is known to have more mechanical problems that conventional factory triggers. Two stage triggers historically fail more than conventional It is a duty weapon, not a range toy. There has to be a need and a benifit to the modification for it to be worthwile and there is neither for this specific application. CQB...not proned out with a precision optic. Assumptions are always bad. I said the rifle is MOA. That means that when I snap a Nikon Tactical on it it will shoot MOA. That upper has also never failed me. I'm breaking in a new one now. I can make faster CQB hits with my EOtech and much more accurate 100yard shots than I can with an Aimpoint. That is made even easier with a SSA. Hence why I use them. Mine is my duty rifle !. Along with training rifle. Hell, I've been known to shoot a coyote or two with it. What is yours? If I can have the best, then I will buy it and use it! have you ever used a SSA triggger? Let alone used one? Let alone have tens of thousands on rounds with one? My issed Duty rifle is a Colt M-4...a real one and it doesn't need a two stage trigger. In my hobby guns at home, yes, I have a couple of two stage KAC triggers. Neither one has ever failed...but they also don't get the abuse that my issue M-4 gets in terms of round count and crud in the lower receiver. Why are you changing optics on a duty weapon 
The SSA trigger is no doubt a great piece of kit...but the point remains that side by side on the range or in a shoot house, you aren't going to make a bit of difference with it. What you will do is add parts that are more complicated and a type of trigger that is known to fail....for no practical gain. You lose reliability...and you gain nothing in terms of practical accuracy at CQB distances. Then again...if you are running an EO, you probably aren't running it that hard or you would find out why they keep recalling battery boxes.
Off the sterile square range where crap is going to get into the trigger mech and the rifle is going to get banged around hard, rained on, snowed on...maybe even blead on...do you really want more moving parts that give you no practical benifit? That reeks of square range IPSC type BS. |
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You are not shooting 1 MOA groups at 100 yards with a non magnified optic. It just plain ain't happening. If you can do that on demand 5 times in a row, I will gladly eat my words. But here in reality world, you can't. Everybody on the internet can shoot 1 hole 20 shot groups at 500 meters with Wolf ammo and an EO Tech... The fact remains that on a DUTY rifle that is CQB focused, there is zero benifit to a more complicated and expensive two stage trigger that is based on a design that is known to have more mechanical problems that conventional factory triggers. Two stage triggers historically fail more than conventional It is a duty weapon, not a range toy. There has to be a need and a benifit to the modification for it to be worthwile and there is neither for this specific application. CQB...not proned out with a precision optic. Assumptions are always bad. I said the rifle is MOA. That means that when I snap a Nikon Tactical on it it will shoot MOA. That upper has also never failed me. I'm breaking in a new one now. I can make faster CQB hits with my EOtech and much more accurate 100yard shots than I can with an Aimpoint. That is made even easier with a SSA. Hence why I use them. Mine is my duty rifle !. Along with training rifle. Hell, I've been known to shoot a coyote or two with it. What is yours? If I can have the best, then I will buy it and use it! have you ever used a SSA triggger? Let alone used one? Let alone have tens of thousands on rounds with one? My issed Duty rifle is a Colt M-4...a real one and it doesn't need a two stage trigger. In my hobby guns at home, yes, I have a couple of two stage KAC triggers. Neither one has ever failed...but they also don't get the abuse that my issue M-4 gets in terms of round count and crud in the lower receiver. Why are you changing optics on a duty weapon
The SSA trigger is no doubt a great piece of kit...but the point remains that side by side on the range or in a shoot house, you aren't going to make a bit of difference with it. What you will do is add parts that are more complicated and a type of trigger that is known to fail....for no practical gain. You lose reliability...and you gain nothing in terms of practical accuracy at CQB distances. Then again...if you are running an EO, you probably aren't running it that hard or you would find out why they keep recalling battery boxes.
Off the sterile square range where crap is going to get into the trigger mech and the rifle is going to get banged around hard, rained on, snowed on...maybe even blead on...do you really want more moving parts that give you no practical benifit? That reeks of square range IPSC type BS. This is really a funny statement considering the fact who actually asked Geissele to make the SSF trigger. These people also use “real M4” and do not do “square IPSC type BS.”
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You are not shooting 1 MOA groups at 100 yards with a non magnified optic. The fact remains that on a DUTY rifle that is CQB focused, there is zero benifit to a more complicated and expensive two stage trigger that is based on a design that is known to have more mechanical problems that conventional factory triggers. Two stage triggers historically fail more than conventional The SSA trigger is no doubt a great piece of kit...but the point remains that side by side on the range or in a shoot house, you aren't going to make a bit of difference with it. What you will do is add parts that are more complicated and a type of trigger that is known to fail....for no practical gain. You lose reliability...and you gain nothing in terms of practical accuracy at CQB distances. 87% of facts and statistics posted on the internet are either made up or often repeated lies |
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You are not shooting 1 MOA groups at 100 yards with a non magnified optic. It just plain ain't happening. If you can do that on demand 5 times in a row, I will gladly eat my words. But here in reality world, you can't. Everybody on the internet can shoot 1 hole 20 shot groups at 500 meters with Wolf ammo and an EO Tech... The fact remains that on a DUTY rifle that is CQB focused, there is zero benifit to a more complicated and expensive two stage trigger that is based on a design that is known to have more mechanical problems that conventional factory triggers. Two stage triggers historically fail more than conventional It is a duty weapon, not a range toy. There has to be a need and a benifit to the modification for it to be worthwile and there is neither for this specific application. CQB...not proned out with a precision optic. Assumptions are always bad. I said the rifle is MOA. That means that when I snap a Nikon Tactical on it it will shoot MOA. That upper has also never failed me. I'm breaking in a new one now. I can make faster CQB hits with my EOtech and much more accurate 100yard shots than I can with an Aimpoint. That is made even easier with a SSA. Hence why I use them. Mine is my duty rifle !. Along with training rifle. Hell, I've been known to shoot a coyote or two with it. What is yours? If I can have the best, then I will buy it and use it! have you ever used a SSA triggger? Let alone used one? Let alone have tens of thousands on rounds with one? My issed Duty rifle is a Colt M-4...a real one and it doesn't need a two stage trigger. In my hobby guns at home, yes, I have a couple of two stage KAC triggers. Neither one has ever failed...but they also don't get the abuse that my issue M-4 gets in terms of round count and crud in the lower receiver. Why are you changing optics on a duty weapon
The SSA trigger is no doubt a great piece of kit...but the point remains that side by side on the range or in a shoot house, you aren't going to make a bit of difference with it. What you will do is add parts that are more complicated and a type of trigger that is known to fail....for no practical gain. You lose reliability...and you gain nothing in terms of practical accuracy at CQB distances. Then again...if you are running an EO, you probably aren't running it that hard or you would find out why they keep recalling battery boxes.
Off the sterile square range where crap is going to get into the trigger mech and the rifle is going to get banged around hard, rained on, snowed on...maybe even blead on...do you really want more moving parts that give you no practical benifit? That reeks of square range IPSC type BS. This is really a funny statement considering the fact who actually asked Geissele to make the SSF trigger. These people also use “real M4” and do not do “square IPSC type BS.” So true, I'm sure this dude knows much more than those guys He keeps talking about CQB distances, absolute accuracy may not always be needed. We are talking about a SWAT situation, that could be busting down a door or taking a precise shot to save a hostage. SWAT operators do not know what situation they are walking into.
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There is nothing inherantly less reliable in a 2 stage trigger. Heck those Glocks have a trigger INSIDE another trigger!! How complicated is that? And we all know how poor the reliability of a Glock is as weall as every other trigger used by the US military that was 2 stage before the M16.
You cannot say "two stage triggers are less reliable" you can only say a RRA 2 stage is less reliable (because it is) or KAC 2 stage is less reliable (becasue it is). For all you know a Geissele SSA is more reliable than the factory trgger. |
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You are not shooting 1 MOA groups at 100 yards with a non magnified optic. It just plain ain't happening. If you can do that on demand 5 times in a row, I will gladly eat my words. But here in reality world, you can't. Everybody on the internet can shoot 1 hole 20 shot groups at 500 meters with Wolf ammo and an EO Tech... The fact remains that on a DUTY rifle that is CQB focused, there is zero benifit to a more complicated and expensive two stage trigger that is based on a design that is known to have more mechanical problems that conventional factory triggers. Two stage triggers historically fail more than conventional It is a duty weapon, not a range toy. There has to be a need and a benifit to the modification for it to be worthwile and there is neither for this specific application. CQB...not proned out with a precision optic. Assumptions are always bad. I said the rifle is MOA. That means that when I snap a Nikon Tactical on it it will shoot MOA. That upper has also never failed me. I'm breaking in a new one now. I can make faster CQB hits with my EOtech and much more accurate 100yard shots than I can with an Aimpoint. That is made even easier with a SSA. Hence why I use them. Mine is my duty rifle !. Along with training rifle. Hell, I've been known to shoot a coyote or two with it. What is yours? If I can have the best, then I will buy it and use it! have you ever used a SSA triggger? Let alone used one? Let alone have tens of thousands on rounds with one? My issed Duty rifle is a Colt M-4...a real one and it doesn't need a two stage trigger. In my hobby guns at home, yes, I have a couple of two stage KAC triggers. Neither one has ever failed...but they also don't get the abuse that my issue M-4 gets in terms of round count and crud in the lower receiver. Why are you changing optics on a duty weapon
The SSA trigger is no doubt a great piece of kit...but the point remains that side by side on the range or in a shoot house, you aren't going to make a bit of difference with it. What you will do is add parts that are more complicated and a type of trigger that is known to fail....for no practical gain. You lose reliability...and you gain nothing in terms of practical accuracy at CQB distances. Then again...if you are running an EO, you probably aren't running it that hard or you would find out why they keep recalling battery boxes.
Off the sterile square range where crap is going to get into the trigger mech and the rifle is going to get banged around hard, rained on, snowed on...maybe even blead on...do you really want more moving parts that give you no practical benifit? That reeks of square range IPSC type BS. This is really a funny statement considering the fact who actually asked Geissele to make the SSF trigger. These people also use “real M4” and do not do “square IPSC type BS.” So true, I'm sure this dude knows much more than those guys He keeps talking about CQB distances, absolute accuracy may not always be needed. We are talking about a SWAT situation, that could be busting down a door or taking a precise shot to save a hostage. SWAT operators do not know what situation they are walking into."those guys" have dedicated full time armorer support. They burn through guns including triggers faster than any of us in this thread. You can't compare the level of maintenance and support that a person in that field would get compared to what you or I will have. If you disagree with me fine...drive on but if you ask this same quesiton on a professional forum, you will get the same answer I gave. If you ask it on a forum where hobby shooters are the majority and "range reliability" is the standard...you will get the go gadget go answer. Two stage match grade triggers have their place. A CQB weapon is not that place. The limiting factor on accuracy at gunfight speed from 0-50 yards with a red dot optic is not the trigger. |
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You are not shooting 1 MOA groups at 100 yards with a non magnified optic. It just plain ain't happening. If you can do that on demand 5 times in a row, I will gladly eat my words. But here in reality world, you can't. Everybody on the internet can shoot 1 hole 20 shot groups at 500 meters with Wolf ammo and an EO Tech... The fact remains that on a DUTY rifle that is CQB focused, there is zero benifit to a more complicated and expensive two stage trigger that is based on a design that is known to have more mechanical problems that conventional factory triggers. Two stage triggers historically fail more than conventional It is a duty weapon, not a range toy. There has to be a need and a benifit to the modification for it to be worthwile and there is neither for this specific application. CQB...not proned out with a precision optic. Assumptions are always bad. I said the rifle is MOA. That means that when I snap a Nikon Tactical on it it will shoot MOA. That upper has also never failed me. I'm breaking in a new one now. I can make faster CQB hits with my EOtech and much more accurate 100yard shots than I can with an Aimpoint. That is made even easier with a SSA. Hence why I use them. Mine is my duty rifle !. Along with training rifle. Hell, I've been known to shoot a coyote or two with it. What is yours? If I can have the best, then I will buy it and use it! have you ever used a SSA triggger? Let alone used one? Let alone have tens of thousands on rounds with one? My issed Duty rifle is a Colt M-4...a real one and it doesn't need a two stage trigger. In my hobby guns at home, yes, I have a couple of two stage KAC triggers. Neither one has ever failed...but they also don't get the abuse that my issue M-4 gets in terms of round count and crud in the lower receiver. Why are you changing optics on a duty weapon
The SSA trigger is no doubt a great piece of kit...but the point remains that side by side on the range or in a shoot house, you aren't going to make a bit of difference with it. What you will do is add parts that are more complicated and a type of trigger that is known to fail....for no practical gain. You lose reliability...and you gain nothing in terms of practical accuracy at CQB distances. Then again...if you are running an EO, you probably aren't running it that hard or you would find out why they keep recalling battery boxes.
Off the sterile square range where crap is going to get into the trigger mech and the rifle is going to get banged around hard, rained on, snowed on...maybe even blead on...do you really want more moving parts that give you no practical benifit? That reeks of square range IPSC type BS. This is really a funny statement considering the fact who actually asked Geissele to make the SSF trigger. These people also use “real M4” and do not do “square IPSC type BS.” So true, I'm sure this dude knows much more than those guys He keeps talking about CQB distances, absolute accuracy may not always be needed. We are talking about a SWAT situation, that could be busting down a door or taking a precise shot to save a hostage. SWAT operators do not know what situation they are walking into."those guys" have dedicated full time armorer support. They burn through guns including triggers faster than any of us in this thread. You can't compare the level of maintenance and support that a person in that field would get compared to what you or I will have. If you disagree with me fine...drive on but if you ask this same quesiton on a professional forum, you will get the same answer I gave. If you ask it on a forum where hobby shooters are the majority and "range reliability" is the standard...you will get the go gadget go answer. Two stage match grade triggers have their place. A CQB weapon is not that place. The limiting factor on accuracy at gunfight speed from 0-50 yards with a red dot optic is not the trigger. Professional Forum, huh. You have NO IDEA who posts on this forum. You keep sayin' the same thing over and over again like that will convince us all you are right. Not gonna happen... Your attempt to sound like you know what you are talking about is rather entertaining. |
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You are not shooting 1 MOA groups at 100 yards with a non magnified optic. It just plain ain't happening. If you can do that on demand 5 times in a row, I will gladly eat my words. But here in reality world, you can't. Everybody on the internet can shoot 1 hole 20 shot groups at 500 meters with Wolf ammo and an EO Tech... The fact remains that on a DUTY rifle that is CQB focused, there is zero benifit to a more complicated and expensive two stage trigger that is based on a design that is known to have more mechanical problems that conventional factory triggers. Two stage triggers historically fail more than conventional It is a duty weapon, not a range toy. There has to be a need and a benifit to the modification for it to be worthwile and there is neither for this specific application. CQB...not proned out with a precision optic. Assumptions are always bad. I said the rifle is MOA. That means that when I snap a Nikon Tactical on it it will shoot MOA. That upper has also never failed me. I'm breaking in a new one now. I can make faster CQB hits with my EOtech and much more accurate 100yard shots than I can with an Aimpoint. That is made even easier with a SSA. Hence why I use them. Mine is my duty rifle !. Along with training rifle. Hell, I've been known to shoot a coyote or two with it. What is yours? If I can have the best, then I will buy it and use it! have you ever used a SSA triggger? Let alone used one? Let alone have tens of thousands on rounds with one? My issed Duty rifle is a Colt M-4...a real one and it doesn't need a two stage trigger. In my hobby guns at home, yes, I have a couple of two stage KAC triggers. Neither one has ever failed...but they also don't get the abuse that my issue M-4 gets in terms of round count and crud in the lower receiver. Why are you changing optics on a duty weapon
The SSA trigger is no doubt a great piece of kit...but the point remains that side by side on the range or in a shoot house, you aren't going to make a bit of difference with it. What you will do is add parts that are more complicated and a type of trigger that is known to fail....for no practical gain. You lose reliability...and you gain nothing in terms of practical accuracy at CQB distances. Then again...if you are running an EO, you probably aren't running it that hard or you would find out why they keep recalling battery boxes.
Off the sterile square range where crap is going to get into the trigger mech and the rifle is going to get banged around hard, rained on, snowed on...maybe even blead on...do you really want more moving parts that give you no practical benifit? That reeks of square range IPSC type BS. This is really a funny statement considering the fact who actually asked Geissele to make the SSF trigger. These people also use “real M4” and do not do “square IPSC type BS.” So true, I'm sure this dude knows much more than those guys He keeps talking about CQB distances, absolute accuracy may not always be needed. We are talking about a SWAT situation, that could be busting down a door or taking a precise shot to save a hostage. SWAT operators do not know what situation they are walking into."those guys" have dedicated full time armorer support. They burn through guns including triggers faster than any of us in this thread. You can't compare the level of maintenance and support that a person in that field would get compared to what you or I will have. If you disagree with me fine...drive on but if you ask this same quesiton on a professional forum, you will get the same answer I gave. If you ask it on a forum where hobby shooters are the majority and "range reliability" is the standard...you will get the go gadget go answer. Two stage match grade triggers have their place. A CQB weapon is not that place. The limiting factor on accuracy at gunfight speed from 0-50 yards with a red dot optic is not the trigger. Professional Forum, huh. You have NO IDEA who posts on this forum. You keep sayin' the same thing over and over again like that will convince us all you are right. Not gonna happen... Your attempt to sound like you know what you are talking about is rather entertaining. +1 |
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You are not shooting 1 MOA groups at 100 yards with a non magnified optic. It just plain ain't happening. If you can do that on demand 5 times in a row, I will gladly eat my words. But here in reality world, you can't. Everybody on the internet can shoot 1 hole 20 shot groups at 500 meters with Wolf ammo and an EO Tech... The fact remains that on a DUTY rifle that is CQB focused, there is zero benifit to a more complicated and expensive two stage trigger that is based on a design that is known to have more mechanical problems that conventional factory triggers. Two stage triggers historically fail more than conventional It is a duty weapon, not a range toy. There has to be a need and a benifit to the modification for it to be worthwile and there is neither for this specific application. CQB...not proned out with a precision optic. Assumptions are always bad. I said the rifle is MOA. That means that when I snap a Nikon Tactical on it it will shoot MOA. That upper has also never failed me. I'm breaking in a new one now. I can make faster CQB hits with my EOtech and much more accurate 100yard shots than I can with an Aimpoint. That is made even easier with a SSA. Hence why I use them. Mine is my duty rifle !. Along with training rifle. Hell, I've been known to shoot a coyote or two with it. What is yours? If I can have the best, then I will buy it and use it! have you ever used a SSA triggger? Let alone used one? Let alone have tens of thousands on rounds with one? My issed Duty rifle is a Colt M-4...a real one and it doesn't need a two stage trigger. In my hobby guns at home, yes, I have a couple of two stage KAC triggers. Neither one has ever failed...but they also don't get the abuse that my issue M-4 gets in terms of round count and crud in the lower receiver. Why are you changing optics on a duty weapon
The SSA trigger is no doubt a great piece of kit...but the point remains that side by side on the range or in a shoot house, you aren't going to make a bit of difference with it. What you will do is add parts that are more complicated and a type of trigger that is known to fail....for no practical gain. You lose reliability...and you gain nothing in terms of practical accuracy at CQB distances. Then again...if you are running an EO, you probably aren't running it that hard or you would find out why they keep recalling battery boxes.
Off the sterile square range where crap is going to get into the trigger mech and the rifle is going to get banged around hard, rained on, snowed on...maybe even blead on...do you really want more moving parts that give you no practical benifit? That reeks of square range IPSC type BS. This is really a funny statement considering the fact who actually asked Geissele to make the SSF trigger. These people also use “real M4” and do not do “square IPSC type BS.” So true, I'm sure this dude knows much more than those guys He keeps talking about CQB distances, absolute accuracy may not always be needed. We are talking about a SWAT situation, that could be busting down a door or taking a precise shot to save a hostage. SWAT operators do not know what situation they are walking into."those guys" have dedicated full time armorer support. They burn through guns including triggers faster than any of us in this thread. You can't compare the level of maintenance and support that a person in that field would get compared to what you or I will have. If you disagree with me fine...drive on but if you ask this same quesiton on a professional forum, you will get the same answer I gave. If you ask it on a forum where hobby shooters are the majority and "range reliability" is the standard...you will get the go gadget go answer. Two stage match grade triggers have their place. A CQB weapon is not that place. The limiting factor on accuracy at gunfight speed from 0-50 yards with a red dot optic is not the trigger. Agree 100%, but I think you're wasting your breath. |
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My work gun has a standard Bushy full auto trigger group. It's heavy and gritty to say the least. It is also dependable and safe. We run with 3 moa Aimpoints and I have no problem making head shots at 100m. What more do you need out of a SWAT gun? I learned how to use my heavy gritty trigger through shooting and dry firing. I would rather testify to that than how I put in a 3-4# trigger in my gun so I could shoot better.
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My work gun has a standard Bushy full auto trigger group. It's heavy and gritty to say the least. It is also dependable and safe. We run with 3 moa Aimpoints and I have no problem making head shots at 100m. What more do you need out of a SWAT gun? I learned how to use my heavy gritty trigger through shooting and dry firing. I would rather testify to that than how I put in a 3-4# trigger in my gun so I could shoot better. My .02 1. I don't think anyone has stated that you NEED a good trigger to make hits. I know plenty of shooters that are fast and accurate with stock triggers, but they are faster and more accurate with a good trigger. Better triggers are an advantage, period. 2. Blanket statements that aftermarket triggers are crap, is just that - crap. Some are known for issues - RRA, KAC. I personally have seen more stock triggers fail than aftermarket triggers. I would still trust a good single stage stock trigger. |
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Thank you all for the input. I'll be the first to say that I could use more training, lots more. It seems to me that if I had to pick one or the other (more training versus "gadgets"), training is easily what would benefit me the most. However, taking a carbine course is not an option for me, currently. Hopefully, that will change in the future. For now, weekly time on the range with the team is as good as it will get for me in that department. On the other hand, using quality parts on my rifle is currently an option for me. So, I will continue to perseverate on them during the moments of spare time that I have available for perseverating. I appreciate the input on the reliability concerns of a 2-stage trigger. Clearly, info gleaned here must be taken with a grain or two of salt. That having been said, it sounds like the Geissele triggers up to this point have proven to be at least modestly reliable. Perhaps I haven't placed enough weight on that issue, though. Aside from the reliability concern, is there a performance detriment related to having a 2-stage trigger for this type of work? If not and it is only a matter of the trigger being too nice, so to speak, for a chrome-line CQB rifle, I have to admit that I've rarely been ashamed of having something that is too nice for the job (maybe I should be, though). Anyway, if I go the route of a Geissele in this rifle, it does sound like the SSA is the way to go. I think I've at least decided that. I'll share my opinion, and it's just that, an opinion. I carried my rifle for several years on my departments SWAT team. If you're relatively new to the team, focus on your training first. Professionals talk about tactics and mindset, everybody else talks about guns and gear. Learn the basics of your training and working with your team. You'll find out later how the gear will integrate into that. I think you're putting the cart before the horse. Run your stock trigger and learn the basics: proper trigger control control here is the first lesson. This is a critical skill which is emphasized by the dynamic nature of the SWAT mission. You'll find yourself bumping into things, tripping, transitioning from primary to secondary. You'll be amped up, fatigued, scared, hot and cold at various times. Armor, equipment and gloves will all affect how you operate your weapon. IMHO, I do not believe the typical SWAT/CQB mission is any place for a lightweight trigger, whether single or two stage. My department requires a minimum 4.5 pound trigger pull. It really boils down to a safety issue as you are responsible for every round you fire. NDs in this role get innocent people or your teammates killed. You may also want to post your question at lightfighter.net or research some of the NTOA articles on this subject. If you are not yet an NTOA member, you should consider joining. The association provides a wealth of resources on topics such as this. ETA: Check with your department's legal counsel on this issue. They may have an opinion on this that may have a bearing on their ability to protect you in the event you do shoot someone. Even the cleanest shootings will result in you and your department getting sued. |
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Thank you all for the input. I'll be the first to say that I could use more training, lots more. It seems to me that if I had to pick one or the other (more training versus "gadgets"), training is easily what would benefit me the most. However, taking a carbine course is not an option for me, currently. Hopefully, that will change in the future. For now, weekly time on the range with the team is as good as it will get for me in that department. On the other hand, using quality parts on my rifle is currently an option for me. So, I will continue to perseverate on them during the moments of spare time that I have available for perseverating. I appreciate the input on the reliability concerns of a 2-stage trigger. Clearly, info gleaned here must be taken with a grain or two of salt. That having been said, it sounds like the Geissele triggers up to this point have proven to be at least modestly reliable. Perhaps I haven't placed enough weight on that issue, though. Aside from the reliability concern, is there a performance detriment related to having a 2-stage trigger for this type of work? If not and it is only a matter of the trigger being too nice, so to speak, for a chrome-line CQB rifle, I have to admit that I've rarely been ashamed of having something that is too nice for the job (maybe I should be, though). Anyway, if I go the route of a Geissele in this rifle, it does sound like the SSA is the way to go. I think I've at least decided that. I'll share my opinion, and it's just that, an opinion. I carried my rifle for several years on my departments SWAT team. If you're relatively new to the team, focus on your training first. Professionals talk about tactics and mindset, everybody else talks about guns and gear. Learn the basics of your training and working with your team. You'll find out later how the gear will integrate into that. I think you're putting the cart before the horse. Run your stock trigger and learn the basics: proper trigger control control here is the first lesson. This is a critical skill which is emphasized by the dynamic nature of the SWAT mission. You'll find yourself bumping into things, tripping, transitioning from primary to secondary. You'll be amped up, fatigued, scared, hot and cold at various times. Armor, equipment and gloves will all affect how you operate your weapon. IMHO, I do not believe the typical SWAT/CQB mission is any place for a lightweight trigger, whether single or two stage. My department requires a minimum 4.5 pound trigger pull. It really boils down to a safety issue as you are responsible for every round you fire. NDs in this role get innocent people or your teammates killed. You may also want to post your question at lightfighter.net or research some of the NTOA articles on this subject. If you are not yet an NTOA member, you should consider joining. The association provides a wealth of resources on topics such as this. ETA: Check with your department's legal counsel on this issue. They may have an opinion on this that may have a bearing on their ability to protect you in the event you do shoot someone. Even the cleanest shootings will result in you and your department getting sued. That's good information, but remember no one has advocated a light trigger. 4.5lb trigger pull is a rather light trigger and is a good minimum, most of my guns are set up in the 5-6lb range. There is a big difference between a clean 5-6lb trigger and a rough, gritty 5-6lb trigger with lots of overtravel and that is all we are saying with the Geissele recommendation. No one has said put a 2lb match trigger in the gun. If you are amped up with your finger on the trigger (first mistake) than it will not matter if your trigger is 4lbs or 8lbs, you will have a ND. Coming here and asking this question we have to assume he has the OK to change the trigger and was looking for recommedations. I would also check over on 10-8Forums, that site is a wealth of knowledge from real world cops and military personel. ETA - I don't think anyone in this thread would advocate add on's and doodad's over training and trigger time. |
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Riptide_1:
LockingBlock and Swatter911 have given you some good advice. For SWAT entry use on a carbine, a stock Colt/FN milspec type AR15 trigger is your best bet at this point. If you are using a DMR/Mk12 type weapon from a perimeter position, then a different trigger might be useful in some applications. |
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I can only speak from my experience when I offer you advice here. I use my personal 7.5" SBR for SWAT entry purposes, and this rifle, like my other AR's, has a stock trigger in it. In my opinion, for what this rifle is designed for, you probably won't see a great deal of benefit from going to a lighter trigger. You have previously stated that reliability and safety are priorities here (as they well should be), and a stock trigger should provide just that. If you were working a perimeter or sniper position, I think you would benefit from an aftermarket trigger, but in the case of CQB your accuracy is going to be dictated by factors other than your trigger system. I would be more apt to spend the money on ammunition and training with the stock trigger until it is second nature to you.
I could continue to post my thoughts, but I would just refer you to what Swatter911 posted...good advice there! |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Trigger for a SWAT Rifle (Page 1 of 2)
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