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Posted: 10/23/2015 12:13:20 AM EDT
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I had an SSA-E in my Grendel, but traded it for an SD-E. I like the straight bow on it so I think it is a keeper. I had bought another SSA-E for my Creedmoor build. Since it is not done, I traded the SSA-E for and AR Gold. I will finally get to check it out when I get back to NM tomorrow.
I have read a lot on triggers and hope the AR Gold is a nice. I was on the fence about getting rid of the SSA-E. My carbines all have standard milspec triggers, but after trying an SSA-E in my Grendel I found I really like the 2 stage break. Anyone else use both in and AR-10 platform that can provide some info and preference on them? I know it is a lot of personal preference and I am not looking to start a battle, just looking for some information. Thanks in advance for any and all input. |
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Thanks for the input so far, just what I am looking for.
I have thought about the Hi speed. The ability to adjust everything just seemed like overkill for me right now and possibly another point of problems. Doesn't mean I have ruled it out though. I may end up getting one to try out. At this point I am just looking at what will be the right fit for me on my rifles. |
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I like the SSA-E and even the straight SSA. They do make a difference in accuracy potential because of pre-ignition vibration. I won't ever buy a match hammer that isn't low mass again. My toolroom guys informed me they had just slapped the 1,000th trigger plate onto the grinder. Each trigger plate yields 6 MBT triggers ... Looks like our 1 of 6,000 MBTs, in the 260 shot yesterday, shook off all that nasty 'Pre-ignition vibration' ... 
Brand new 260 barrel in the midst of settling in ... 1st group - top left 2nd group - bottom left 3rd group - top right 4th group - bottom right Top groups are 5 shots each - bottom groups are 3 shots each. 
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There's an excellent article in this year's Sniper magazine where they tested PIV with several different triggers.
The main factor in eliminating as much PIV as possible seems to be a low-mass hammer. It was a really great article, as most of what is written in gun rags is shameless advertising for rack-grade products of questionable quality. The AA Tactical Trigger had the least/no perceivable PIV in their testing, followed by the Geissele and the Hyper-Fire. What they saw was the more mass there is on the hammer, the more it pushes the lower receiver down when pivoting, and this movement is actually perceivable through the scope. They set up the testing based on that phenomenon, and established measurable parameters to compare fire control units with each other. The Geissele unit they used had a hammer with the skeletonized relief cuts in it, but don't go through the hammer. AA Tactical Trigger 
Maybe it was the High Speed National Match DMR trigger: 
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Having bought and written checks for $2 million or so dollars in triggers over the last few years, likely more than than most anyone on this board, I have a good handle on how often they break.
Armed with this knowledge, I would not take a skeletonized trigger to the back 40 of Afghanistan. I layed our trigger out to be the antithesis of a consumable.
YMMV. 
ETA - As for the magazine article, we have a saying around the shop "Twice nothing is still nothing", and as you can see in the groups I posted above ... twice nothing had little to no effect. |
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I had an SSA-E in my Grendel, but traded it for an SD-E. I like the straight bow on it so I think it is a keeper. I had bought another SSA-E for my Creedmoor build. Since it is not done, I traded the SSA-E for and AR Gold. I will finally get to check it out when I get back to NM tomorrow. I have read a lot on triggers and hope the AR Gold is a nice. I was on the fence about getting rid of the SSA-E. My carbines all have standard milspec triggers, but after trying an SSA-E in my Grendel I found I really like the 2 stage break. Anyone else use both in and AR-10 platform that can provide some info and preference on them? I know it is a lot of personal preference and I am not looking to start a battle, just looking for some information. Thanks in advance for any and all input. not that i have anything to add, but i just picked up an SD-E and like it so far. although i haven't shot it yet, when dry firing, the break is crispy as it could get. one thing im not sure of is when re-cocking the hammer, it is far from smooth. it tends to drag over the contact points. will this wear in over time? |
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I'm sure it's a great trigger, just wasn't available when they did that article. The thing I like about Sniper Magazine is the authors are mostly all career SF, or guys like Todd Hodnett.
The last two issues featured LaRue products quite favorably, with in-depth articles that discuss the finer points of design, flexibility, and differentiation from other AR's. |
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I'm sure it's a great trigger, just wasn't available when they did that article. <snip> Folks that follow this firm know I don't gear my facility up aiming for 2nd place. Not to mention there was already plenty of mim'd / cast, consumable-type triggers on the market. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L0LF_bZnOz0 
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Nice to see someone that still does testing. That is quite rare in the cottage industry, until you get to larger firms with engineering staff. Is the LaRue trigger EDM cut? A combination of machine tools is used in MBT production, including wire edm. Speaking of in-house testing ... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RgMOd5h-XfA |
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That looks like me settling the gun before I take a shot.
I had a guy ask me if I have Parkinsons once when he was watching me before I started shooting groups. I laughed! As soon as you're done with all that testing, you might be able to pass Nutnfancy's rigorous torture! |
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Folks that follow this firm know I don't gear my facility up aiming for 2nd place. Not to mention there was already plenty of mim'd / cast, consumable-type triggers on the market. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L0LF_bZnOz0  https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L0LF_bZnOz0
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I'm sure it's a great trigger, just wasn't available when they did that article. <snip> Folks that follow this firm know I don't gear my facility up aiming for 2nd place. Not to mention there was already plenty of mim'd / cast, consumable-type triggers on the market. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L0LF_bZnOz0 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L0LF_bZnOz0
Could you post up all your triggers 1st place wins in competition? 
The HiSpeed Geissles sort of have a proven track record of winning and not breaking. |
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Could you post up all your triggers 1st place wins in competition?
The HiSpeed Geissles sort of have a proven track record of winning and not breaking. Quoted:
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I'm sure it's a great trigger, just wasn't available when they did that article. <snip> Folks that follow this firm know I don't gear my facility up aiming for 2nd place. Not to mention there was already plenty of mim'd / cast, consumable-type triggers on the market. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L0LF_bZnOz0 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L0LF_bZnOz0
Could you post up all your triggers 1st place wins in competition?
The HiSpeed Geissles sort of have a proven track record of winning and not breaking. They break enough to be noticeable. Had an officer walk in off the street recently with a broke G trigger. Meh, no biggie, we replaced it. |
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I have a Larue trigger in my AR10. The trigger shoe is noticeably wider and comfortable. The Larue also has a very distinct second stage with a very crisp break, comparable to my Geissele HiSpeed NM trigger.
I still have my Geiselle trigger in my service rifle after thousands of round of rimfire and centerfire.. I like it as well. The difference is that the trigger bow is about 1/8" forward than a regular GI trigger, which slightly changes my grip. |
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They break enough to be noticeable. Had an officer walk in off the street recently with a broke G trigger. Meh, no biggie, we replaced it. Quoted:
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I'm sure it's a great trigger, just wasn't available when they did that article. <snip> Folks that follow this firm know I don't gear my facility up aiming for 2nd place. Not to mention there was already plenty of mim'd / cast, consumable-type triggers on the market. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L0LF_bZnOz0 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L0LF_bZnOz0
Could you post up all your triggers 1st place wins in competition?
The HiSpeed Geissles sort of have a proven track record of winning and not breaking. They break enough to be noticeable. Had an officer walk in off the street recently with a broke G trigger. Meh, no biggie, we replaced it. Got pics of the broken G?? |
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There's an excellent article in this year's Sniper magazine where they tested PIV with several different triggers. The main factor in eliminating as much PIV as possible seems to be a low-mass hammer. It was a really great article, as most of what is written in gun rags is shameless advertising for rack-grade products of questionable quality. The AA Tactical Trigger had the least/no perceivable PIV in their testing, followed by the Geissele and the Hyper-Fire. What they saw was the more mass there is on the hammer, the more it pushes the lower receiver down when pivoting, and this movement is actually perceivable through the scope. They set up the testing based on that phenomenon, and established measurable parameters to compare fire control units with each other. The Geissele unit they used had a hammer with the skeletonized relief cuts in it, but don't go through the hammer. PIV? Lock time? |
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Got pics of the broken G?? Quoted:
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I'm sure it's a great trigger, just wasn't available when they did that article. <snip> Folks that follow this firm know I don't gear my facility up aiming for 2nd place. Not to mention there was already plenty of mim'd / cast, consumable-type triggers on the market. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L0LF_bZnOz0 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L0LF_bZnOz0
Could you post up all your triggers 1st place wins in competition?
The HiSpeed Geissles sort of have a proven track record of winning and not breaking. They break enough to be noticeable. Had an officer walk in off the street recently with a broke G trigger. Meh, no biggie, we replaced it. Got pics of the broken G?? No, but I googled one for you. Their words, not mine. http://www.personalarmament.com/2010/04/max-michel-steel-nationals-report.html |
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PIV? Lock time? Quoted:
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There's an excellent article in this year's Sniper magazine where they tested PIV with several different triggers. The main factor in eliminating as much PIV as possible seems to be a low-mass hammer. It was a really great article, as most of what is written in gun rags is shameless advertising for rack-grade products of questionable quality. The AA Tactical Trigger had the least/no perceivable PIV in their testing, followed by the Geissele and the Hyper-Fire. What they saw was the more mass there is on the hammer, the more it pushes the lower receiver down when pivoting, and this movement is actually perceivable through the scope. They set up the testing based on that phenomenon, and established measurable parameters to compare fire control units with each other. The Geissele unit they used had a hammer with the skeletonized relief cuts in it, but don't go through the hammer. PIV? Lock time? Already explained in bold. Not just lock time, but displacement of the rifle because of the swinging mass of the hammer transferring energy through the spring into the lower receiver off axis. |
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No, but I googled one for you. Their words, not mine. http://www.personalarmament.com/2010/04/max-michel-steel-nationals-report.html Quoted:
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Folks that follow this firm know I don't gear my facility up aiming for 2nd place. Not to mention there was already plenty of mim'd / cast, consumable-type triggers on the market. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L0LF_bZnOz0 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L0LF_bZnOz0
Could you post up all your triggers 1st place wins in competition?
The HiSpeed Geissles sort of have a proven track record of winning and not breaking. They break enough to be noticeable. Had an officer walk in off the street recently with a broke G trigger. Meh, no biggie, we replaced it. Got pics of the broken G?? No, but I googled one for you. Their words, not mine. http://www.personalarmament.com/2010/04/max-michel-steel-nationals-report.html I also did a search. That example from 2010 was also the only example I could find.
I guess "enough to be noticeable" means different things to different people. 
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^^^
I've written somewhere in the neighborhood of $2 million dollars in checks for triggers, right at $1.8 million went to Pennsylvania ... my perspective is different from the end-user that owns two.
ETA - this review just came across the Teletype ... “I purchased 2 MBTs when the Father's Day offer was sent out. I just replaced two Mi-Spec triggers this morning and couldn't be happier. I have some neuropathy in my hands, so the finer differences are beyond me, but the only difference I can see between the MBT and my Geissle SSA is that the MBT seems to have a slightly more glass-like break. The MBT was easily worth the original price. At $199, I wouldn't even bother looking elsewhere.” |
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They're one of the most failure-prone and bolt carrier interfering fire control groups, and achieved that reputation many years ago, especially among the NRA Hi-power shooters. Quoted:
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rra 2 stage triggers have done be absolutely fine for years They're one of the most failure-prone and bolt carrier interfering fire control groups, and achieved that reputation many years ago, especially among the NRA Hi-power shooters. I must be super lucky, I shoot about 500 rounds of 556 a week and haven't had an issue with 3 of the ones I own so far. One in an ar308 with over 500 rounds through it, not much by any standards but no issue as of yet, and 2 in a couple of ar15s will well over 2k possibly a little more rounds through each with zero issues so far, again not much out of these rifles with those triggers but they aren't the ones I typically run on friday. Any idea of where they start to fail at? Ill take a look at them when I get home and see if im developing anything weird in them. What should I be looking for? |
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I must be super lucky, I shoot about 500 rounds of 556 a week and haven't had an issue with 3 of the ones I own so far. One in an ar308 with over 500 rounds through it, not much by any standards but no issue as of yet, and 2 in a couple of ar15s will well over 2k possibly a little more rounds through each with zero issues so far, again not much out of these rifles with those triggers but they aren't the ones I typically run on friday. Any idea of where they start to fail at? Ill take a look at them when I get home and see if im developing anything weird in them. What should I be looking for? Quoted:
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rra 2 stage triggers have done be absolutely fine for years They're one of the most failure-prone and bolt carrier interfering fire control groups, and achieved that reputation many years ago, especially among the NRA Hi-power shooters. I must be super lucky, I shoot about 500 rounds of 556 a week and haven't had an issue with 3 of the ones I own so far. One in an ar308 with over 500 rounds through it, not much by any standards but no issue as of yet, and 2 in a couple of ar15s will well over 2k possibly a little more rounds through each with zero issues so far, again not much out of these rifles with those triggers but they aren't the ones I typically run on friday. Any idea of where they start to fail at? Ill take a look at them when I get home and see if im developing anything weird in them. What should I be looking for? If I only had 3 samples to speak of, I would say my 3 samples are doing x,y, and z. But since I have seen way more than 3 samples, and I have personally witnessed several lock up bolt carriers to the point that trigger reset was the only way to get the BCG to return to battery, and have heard the same thing from several others (and RRA apparently addressed this problem), I know it's not my imagination. The other main problem with them is that they don't hold the edges well at all. I have one that feels like a single stage now, but started as a 2-stage. They were a good trigger in their day, but have become marginalized almost to the point of being forgotten once Geissele hit the scene. |
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I must be super lucky, I shoot about 500 rounds of 556 a week and haven't had an issue with 3 of the ones I own so far. One in an ar308 with over 500 rounds through it, not much by any standards but no issue as of yet, and 2 in a couple of ar15s will well over 2k possibly a little more rounds through each with zero issues so far, again not much out of these rifles with those triggers but they aren't the ones I typically run on friday. Any idea of where they start to fail at? Ill take a look at them when I get home and see if im developing anything weird in them. What should I be looking for? Quoted:
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rra 2 stage triggers have done be absolutely fine for years They're one of the most failure-prone and bolt carrier interfering fire control groups, and achieved that reputation many years ago, especially among the NRA Hi-power shooters. I must be super lucky, I shoot about 500 rounds of 556 a week and haven't had an issue with 3 of the ones I own so far. One in an ar308 with over 500 rounds through it, not much by any standards but no issue as of yet, and 2 in a couple of ar15s will well over 2k possibly a little more rounds through each with zero issues so far, again not much out of these rifles with those triggers but they aren't the ones I typically run on friday. Any idea of where they start to fail at? Ill take a look at them when I get home and see if im developing anything weird in them. What should I be looking for? When you start losing your second stage check to see if your disconnector pin has started developing flat spots or cracks (or just plain fails). Every once in a great while you lose disconnector function. Start lookiing for failures anywhere between 4,000 and 10-12K rounds. If you never shoot that many rounds per rifle, get on down with your bad self and never worry. |
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I was just in that dilemma about choosing a trigger in a recent 80% 308 build.
I went with the Timney AR-10 trigger, which is identical in every way except that it has a larger, heavier hammer. That results in a stronger hammer strike, and in the case of my build, better reliability. The trigger breaks at 3.5 lbs. Very crisp. Not quite as good as the Black Rain Ordnance, but pretty close. G. |
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Biggest problems with the Timney's is Pre-Ignition Vibration.
The 3.5lb models are great-feeling triggers, but the hammer mass pushes the lower receiver away from the bore axis downwards, resulting in positional shift before the hammer even hits the firing pin. If you are looking for the full accuracy potential of the AR15, I would look at another trigger. A full power hammer spring is really all you need to activate primers in the SR-25/AR10/LR-308. |
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Biggest problems with the Timney's is Pre-Ignition Vibration. The 3.5lb models are great-feeling triggers, but the hammer mass pushes the lower receiver away from the bore axis downwards, resulting in positional shift before the hammer even hits the firing pin. If you are looking for the full accuracy potential of the AR15, I would look at another trigger. A full power hammer spring is really all you need to activate primers in the SR-25/AR10/LR-308. Has anyone mentioned grip variations pertaining to accuracy ? Depending on the rifle, light controlled grip force groups different from limp-wristing it. |
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Has anyone mentioned grip variations pertaining to accuracy ? Depending on the rifle, light controlled grip force groups different from limp-wristing it. Quoted:
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Biggest problems with the Timney's is Pre-Ignition Vibration. The 3.5lb models are great-feeling triggers, but the hammer mass pushes the lower receiver away from the bore axis downwards, resulting in positional shift before the hammer even hits the firing pin. If you are looking for the full accuracy potential of the AR15, I would look at another trigger. A full power hammer spring is really all you need to activate primers in the SR-25/AR10/LR-308. Has anyone mentioned grip variations pertaining to accuracy ? Depending on the rifle, light controlled grip force groups different from limp-wristing it. I personally have found that I need to apply straight, rearward pressure that is about equal to the weight of the rifle into my shoulder pocket when shooting for groups. The biggest thing that I do to accuracy test an AR though is settle the position so that the natural point of aim is dead center of the small aiming point I am using, and a lot of this hangs on my ability to control the rear bag. Once you settle the position well into the NPOA, you can rapid fire .3" 5rd groups because the position doesn't get disturbed by the recoil. I'm relating this from a perspective of having done accuracy testing and QC for more than one different firearms manufacturer, where I literally would spend from 0900-1700 several days a week at a range testing up to 20 rifles. It also gave me a much larger fleet test perspective on barrel quality from the different barrel makers. Krieger and Bartlein barrels stick out to me as the top performers, and I've shot enough Lilja barrels as well to trust that they are 1/2 MOA or less capable with 5rd groups. For accuracy-testing the AR, especially the big boys, having the front handguard bagged down heavy, with an optimal rear bag for the type of stock and height off the table, makes a huge difference. Combine that with a top-end trigger, follow the NPOA settling of the gun, start off with plenty of dry-fire until your reticle doesn't move outside of an inch, and then go live. This is also based on an assumption of applying the fundamentals. I get the position oriented to the target from the start. Scope is focused for optimal reticle and target clarity. Aiming, breathing, and trigger control are an integrated act, and follow-through focuses on watching the sight picture/reticle movement, with no body movement, and trigger held to the rear, then start the sequence over again. I'm at the point where I can shoot .3 MOA or better on a cadence with a good NPOA settled position. Getting ready to got to the range to work up a load for my neighbor's 7mm-08, as well as test a 6.5 Grendel upper for a friend I just built. |
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I personally have found that I need to apply straight, rearward pressure that is about equal to the weight of the rifle into my shoulder pocket when shooting for groups. The biggest thing that I do to accuracy test an AR though is settle the position so that the natural point of aim is dead center of the small aiming point I am using, and a lot of this hangs on my ability to control the rear bag. Once you settle the position well into the NPOA, you can rapid fire .3" 5rd groups because the position doesn't get disturbed by the recoil. I'm relating this from a perspective of having done accuracy testing and QC for more than one different firearms manufacturer, where I literally would spend from 0900-1700 several days a week at a range testing up to 20 rifles. It also gave me a much larger fleet test perspective on barrel quality from the different barrel makers. Krieger and Bartlein barrels stick out to me as the top performers, and I've shot enough Lilja barrels as well to trust that they are 1/2 MOA or less capable with 5rd groups. For accuracy-testing the AR, especially the big boys, having the front handguard bagged down heavy, with an optimal rear bag for the type of stock and height off the table, makes a huge difference. Combine that with a top-end trigger, follow the NPOA settling of the gun, start off with plenty of dry-fire until your reticle doesn't move outside of an inch, and then go live. This is also based on an assumption of applying the fundamentals. I get the position oriented to the target from the start. Scope is focused for optimal reticle and target clarity. Aiming, breathing, and trigger control are an integrated act, and follow-through focuses on watching the sight picture/reticle movement, with no body movement, and trigger held to the rear, then start the sequence over again. I'm at the point where I can shoot .3 MOA or better on a cadence with a good NPOA settled position. Getting ready to got to the range to work up a load for my neighbor's 7mm-08, as well as test a 6.5 Grendel upper for a friend I just built. Quoted:
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Biggest problems with the Timney's is Pre-Ignition Vibration. The 3.5lb models are great-feeling triggers, but the hammer mass pushes the lower receiver away from the bore axis downwards, resulting in positional shift before the hammer even hits the firing pin. If you are looking for the full accuracy potential of the AR15, I would look at another trigger. A full power hammer spring is really all you need to activate primers in the SR-25/AR10/LR-308. Has anyone mentioned grip variations pertaining to accuracy ? Depending on the rifle, light controlled grip force groups different from limp-wristing it. I personally have found that I need to apply straight, rearward pressure that is about equal to the weight of the rifle into my shoulder pocket when shooting for groups. The biggest thing that I do to accuracy test an AR though is settle the position so that the natural point of aim is dead center of the small aiming point I am using, and a lot of this hangs on my ability to control the rear bag. Once you settle the position well into the NPOA, you can rapid fire .3" 5rd groups because the position doesn't get disturbed by the recoil. I'm relating this from a perspective of having done accuracy testing and QC for more than one different firearms manufacturer, where I literally would spend from 0900-1700 several days a week at a range testing up to 20 rifles. It also gave me a much larger fleet test perspective on barrel quality from the different barrel makers. Krieger and Bartlein barrels stick out to me as the top performers, and I've shot enough Lilja barrels as well to trust that they are 1/2 MOA or less capable with 5rd groups. For accuracy-testing the AR, especially the big boys, having the front handguard bagged down heavy, with an optimal rear bag for the type of stock and height off the table, makes a huge difference. Combine that with a top-end trigger, follow the NPOA settling of the gun, start off with plenty of dry-fire until your reticle doesn't move outside of an inch, and then go live. This is also based on an assumption of applying the fundamentals. I get the position oriented to the target from the start. Scope is focused for optimal reticle and target clarity. Aiming, breathing, and trigger control are an integrated act, and follow-through focuses on watching the sight picture/reticle movement, with no body movement, and trigger held to the rear, then start the sequence over again. I'm at the point where I can shoot .3 MOA or better on a cadence with a good NPOA settled position. Getting ready to got to the range to work up a load for my neighbor's 7mm-08, as well as test a 6.5 Grendel upper for a friend I just built. And there's always the 1 MOA Challenge when ya got nothing slated for 25 rounds. .
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I'm at the point where I can shoot .3 MOA or better on a cadence with a good NPOA settled position. Getting ready to got to the range to work up a load for my neighbor's 7mm-08, as well as test a 6.5 Grendel upper for a friend I just built. Once a good position is built, it's so much easier to get multiple rounds on target. Incidentally, this being Halloween and all, it seems odd that you would be talking about weapons for friends you are building - is your name Dr. Frankenstein, by any chance? 
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Well this actually is not all that great . I think I may have to get my hands on a LaRue MBT to try out. More money gone to be the Guinea Pig. Then, maybe I can find the one I like make sure that is what I have across the board.
Buddy's I shoot with will wait until I figure out what to use and try mine. Convenient for them, I already have a small fortune spent on triggers... Hope my wife's understanding hold out and she doesn't suddenly acquire an interest of her own in triggers. |
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I personally favor the drop-in trigger modules, most of which are single stage units...Quality control
and and material selection is usually excellent from most of these USA made vendors/manufactures and they are quick and easy to Install. There is quite a nice selection: CMC Timney POF Wilson Combat AR Gold Fat Boy Velocity BTE There are a few others I am sure but you get the Idea... Good luck. |
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Well this actually is not all that great . I think I may have to get my hands on a LaRue MBT to try out. More money gone to be the Guinea Pig. Then, maybe I can find the one I like make sure that is what I have across the board. Buddy's I shoot with will wait until I figure out what to use and try mine. Convenient for them, I already have a small fortune spent on triggers... Hope my wife's understanding hold out and she doesn't suddenly acquire an interest of her in triggers. Okay then, so I posted this comment in the other trigger thread ... "Then might I suggest you keep your finger on the trigger next week of two ..." 
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That's one of the only gun rags worth buying. I think it's only an annual publication. Every article is full of meat and potatoes, not a shameless advertising fluff piece by some fudd who knows jack and squat about these things.
In that magazine, you get authors who have at least 20 years each of experience in their relevant field, who actually know what they are talking about, and pick products for review that are well vetted. That article on PIV was excellent, and it affects bolt guns as well with striker drag inside the striker channel. |
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So I was using a LaRue MBT trigger last time at the range and didn't even know it.
Helping a buddy with a 6.5 Grendel build, and he has that trigger in his Seekins lower. Feels nice, 2nd stage is very crisp. Maybe I can do a side-by-side with the same upper on two different lowers. |
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