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Posted: 3/5/2011 6:55:58 AM EDT
| I've seen the charts that show ejection patterns and while I'm not worried about it am curious. I have two identical Spike's 16" mid-length, same ST-22 buffers, defender O ring on the extractor, same ammo etc. One ejects shells at 5:00 and the other at 1:00. What other variables would there be on two factory built rifles directly from Spike's? |
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The axis of the chamber/bore in relation to the corresponding axis of the upper receiver could definitely vary between barrels/uppers/extensions. Even if they are from the same lot they could have been machined differently.
The bolt carrier/bolt/ejector/extractor/spring strengths could also vary. The buffers or spring could have variations. The ammo also could have a lot of variation... same lot/same box does not mean 100% exactly the same loaded ammo. The real culprit is spikes tactical... when they installed the FSB they must have partially covered the gasport, hence the differences. <sarcasm Don't give it too much thought. 
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what was said is right there could be variances slightly in manufacturing even from the same specd piece.
| Thanks Guys. I wasn't worried just curious about the dynamics involved. In previous posts I've seen advice given that states forward ejection indicates over-gassing and to use a heavier buffer. At other times shooters are told to use a lighter buffer. Just as an experiment, at my next range session, I'll take along a standard carbine buffer and an H buffer to try and also try it with and without the D ring. I've owned a dozen or so AR's over the years and one of my Spike's and a Stag are the only ones that eject forward. In other AR's I've run carbine, H, H2 and 9mm buffers without any change in the ejection pattern. I've always put in extra power extractor springs but have never used the O rings until these two Spike's came with them installed. |
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I've seen the charts that show ejection patterns and while I'm not worried about it am curious. I have two identical Spike's 16" mid-length, same ST-22 buffers, defender O ring on the extractor, same ammo etc. One ejects shells at 5:00 and the other at 1:00. Does spent brass from one that ejects at 1:00 look like this? 
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I've seen the charts that show ejection patterns and while I'm not worried about it am curious. I have two identical Spike's 16" mid-length, same ST-22 buffers, defender O ring on the extractor, same ammo etc. One ejects shells at 5:00 and the other at 1:00. Does spent brass from one that ejects at 1:00 look like this? http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m123/Bulldog257/DSCF0002-5A.jpg Yes, as a matter of fact it does! |
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And if you don't have a brass deflector they all go to basically the 5:00 position. Hmmm, the brass is hitting at the most forward, sharp edge of the brass deflector. Initially I didn't think they were hitting the deflector at all and had to look very closely to see any brass coloration. If if were not for the slightly raised front edge of the deflector I think they'd probably be hitting the rear edge of the ejection port. |
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And if you don't have a brass deflector they all go to basically the 5:00 position. Hmmm, the brass is hitting at the most forward, sharp edge of the brass deflector. Initially I didn't think they were hitting the deflector at all and had to look very closely to see any brass coloration. If if were not for the slightly raised front edge of the deflector I think they'd probably be hitting the rear edge of the ejection port. I had same 1:00 ejection pattern on Noveske and Armalite middy. Brass bouncing off the sharp corner of the deflector. Combination of Wolff extra power action spring and H3 buffer slowed down the carrier enough to allow the brass to deflect off the flat part of the deflector. I haven't tried tweaking the ejector spring, extractor O-ring or the extractor spring as suggested by other members. Definitely I'll try it. If it works, it may be better option than extra power recoil spring. Personally, I do not like when corner of deflector gets peened all the way to hell and brass almost gets cut in two. I prefer my ejection port, deflector and spent brass to look like this: brass from LMT H3 buffer ... original LMT recoil spring ... auto carrier 
LMT port after 850 rounds 
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| Thanks for all the input! The lenght of the springs is the same on both. I'm going to be out of town for a week and will order an H3 buffer and extra power spring when I get back. Since I have a spare caribine and H buffer I may play with them and see if I can take weight from the carbine and add it to the H (replace the steel weight in the H with tungsten from the carbine) |
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Here is a good reference chart....... That stupid chart has caused the sale of more junk springs an un-needed buffer swaps than anything on Earth. Whomever made that idiotic graphic should get kicked in the nuts. I'm new to the AR game and don't know what I don't know, but I thought I understood the ejection pattern dynamics. Could you elaborate on your post and the reasoning behind it? Mully |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Here is a good reference chart....... That stupid chart has caused the sale of more junk springs an un-needed buffer swaps than anything on Earth. Whomever made that idiotic graphic should get kicked in the nuts. I'm new to the AR game and don't know what I don't know, but I thought I understood the ejection pattern dynamics. Could you elaborate on your post and the reasoning behind it? Mully +1, I would love to hear the rational behind that statement myself........  |
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I'm new to the AR game and don't know what I don't know, but I thought I understood the ejection pattern dynamics. Could you elaborate on your post and the reasoning behind it? Mully Rifle or carbine ejection pattern is only a sliver of the diagnostic process. A slam dunk, idiotic MS paint chart that simplifies it to that degree is a joke and dangerous for guys who are newer to the platform. I don't fault new guys for seeing that horse shit and believing it. I'd do the same thing if I was new to the gun too. Ammunition selection, Port size, brass deflector or no brass deflector, and extractor tension, for example ALL play a role in how a piece of brass will fly out of the ejection port. Seeing a pattern at 2 or 3 o'clock does NOT mean your gun need some queer flat wire spring or some nonsense. And recently... there's a school of thought that a slightly (not excessively) over-gassed AR isn't such a bad thing if the gun gets dirt/debris inside it. Running that bolt group a little hard might not be the end of the world when the gun gets gritty and dry. 
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BeerBender, it almost sounds like you have some unresolved aggression going on there.
The chart is a good general indicator of a potential issue. IOW, it's better than a sharp stick in the eye. True, it's not a precision diagnostic tool, and seeking the reason for abnormal ejection is another matter entirely, but if a man's AR is cycling properly and ejection is in the "green zone", it's a pretty safe bet his gun is okay. If it's not, he MAY want to delve a little deeper or seek some experienced advice. The bottom line, though, is that if the gun is consistently ejecting brass in any direction and not malfunctioning in any other way, it pretty much doesn't matter what part of the pie chart his brass falls in. . . |
| I'm very new to the AR platform so perhaps my observations are naive. I've noticed that when shooting my rifle that I get more consistent "ejection landings" when I'm more focused and relaxed when firing it. In other words, if I anticipate the weapon firing, then my brass ends up more 1:00 due to my anticipation. I know this will sound stupid, but I've found that if, in my head, I am thinking of what I want on a hamburger (e.g., cheese, lettuce, etc.) when firing that I don't anticipate the firing. So, does minute body movements effect brass ejection? |
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And if you don't have a brass deflector they all go to basically the 5:00 position. Hmmm, the brass is hitting at the most forward, sharp edge of the brass deflector. Initially I didn't think they were hitting the deflector at all and had to look very closely to see any brass coloration. If if were not for the slightly raised front edge of the deflector I think they'd probably be hitting the rear edge of the ejection port. On 14.5" guns I ran with a carbine buffer that edge is completely worn down to naked aluminum withen 1000 rounds. |
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And if you don't have a brass deflector they all go to basically the 5:00 position. Hmmm, the brass is hitting at the most forward, sharp edge of the brass deflector. Initially I didn't think they were hitting the deflector at all and had to look very closely to see any brass coloration. If if were not for the slightly raised front edge of the deflector I think they'd probably be hitting the rear edge of the ejection port. I had same 1:00 ejection pattern on Noveske and Armalite middy. Brass bouncing off the sharp corner of the deflector. Combination of Wolff extra power action spring and H3 buffer slowed down the carrier enough to allow the brass to deflect off the flat part of the deflector. I haven't tried tweaking the ejector spring, extractor O-ring or the extractor spring as suggested by other members. Definitely I'll try it. If it works, it may be better option than extra power recoil spring. Personally, I do not like when corner of deflector gets peened all the way to hell and brass almost gets cut in two. I prefer my ejection port, deflector and spent brass to look like this: brass from LMT H3 buffer ... original LMT recoil spring ... auto carrier http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m123/Bulldog257/DSCF00014A.jpg LMT port after 850 rounds http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m123/Bulldog257/LMT-Armalite-08A.jpg that is one clean gun after 850 rounds, mines always splattered with clp when i go shooting 
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I've been shooting AR's for many years.... Have tens of thousands of rds down range...... and not once.... not ever.... did I ever bother to look and see where the brass is ejecting...... I guess, cause I'm so focused on where I'm trying to put the bullet, I decided not to invest my time worrying on something that is so unimportant....
Way better things to spend your time focusing on..... |
| If you are just worried or don't like the small dents in the brass, then I have a solution for you that I got from an experienced AR guy I know. Cut a small piece of velcro...the soft one not the hook part and clean the front edge of the deflector with alcohol first. Then paste the velcro on that edge and back about 1/2 inch. It will fix the denting but I'm not sure if it will change your ejection pattern. |
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I've been shooting AR's for many years.... Have tens of thousands of rds down range...... and not once.... not ever.... did I ever bother to look and see where the brass is ejecting...... I guess, cause I'm so focused on where I'm trying to put the bullet, I decided not to invest my time worrying on something that is so unimportant.... Way better things to spend your time focusing on..... Reliability is certainly to most important factor. But once you have a relibale accurate carbine then duribility is something you can work on as well. Proper buffer selection can entend the life of the carbine. |
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