AR Sponsor
Posted: 8/6/2014 10:20:17 AM EDT
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Hello all. I am fairly new to the AR game, just purchased my first AR, a PSA PA-15. I am looking to switch up my optics, right now all I have is a Vortex SPARC red dot. I'm interested in the Trijicon ACOG sights, and so far I've heard good things about the 3.5x and 4x magnification models, specifically the TA11 and the TA31. I would like to know, however, exactly how versatile these optics are. More specifically, can I use either of these models effectively at ranges from 50-400 yards? How easily can i acquire closer range (50-75 yards) targets with these optics? Finally, I understand that all ACOGs are meant to be used while keeping both eyes open. In your experience, how practical/easy are they to be used in this fashion?
Thanks to everyone in advance for your thoughts. TN AR Guy |
| from 50 out the ACOG is awesome. Inside of 5 yards is where I have issues with it and prefer a 1x optic. the BAC(aka, both eyes open) works well but takes some getting used to, I believe it's more advantageous at closer ranges(20 yards and in) I had a TA31F and if I bought another it would be the TA11 for longer eye relief. I don't like to shoot NTCH so the 1.5" of eye relief on the TA31 is not for me. |
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Thanks for the input man. So, as a follow up question, is it possible/practical to use the sights in this magnification range at extremely close ranges such as you might experience in close quarters situations? (i.e. a house) I understand that the BAC shooting style makes it easier to quickly acquire targets with higher magnification optics at closer ranges, but does that really still apply at ranges less than 10 yards?
I know the easiest way to answer these questions would be to try one out for myself, but I don't have that option right now, so thanks everyone for humoring me. |
| If you have a Sparc I honestly would upgrade to a T1 if your looking to upgrade. It wont be a completely different style optic that you have to get used to. I have played around with the idea of ditching my Eotech and going ACOG, but most of my shooting with an AR is going to be within 200 yards, so I can't justify it. |
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Quoted:
Thanks for the input man. So, as a follow up question, is it possible/practical to use the sights in this magnification range at extremely close ranges such as you might experience in close quarters situations? (i.e. a house) I understand that the BAC shooting style makes it easier to quickly acquire targets with higher magnification optics at closer ranges, but does that really still apply at ranges less than 10 yards? I know the easiest way to answer these questions would be to try one out for myself, but I don't have that option right now, so thanks everyone for humoring me. Assuming a 50 yd zero... and a flat-top mount. At ranges less than 10 yards the BAC works just fine. Impact point is ~2-3/4" below sight height at muzzle, and decreases gradually as the bullet comes to intersect line of sight at the 50 yd zero. Been using an TA31 as my primary sight for my patrol rifle for about 8 years. Love it. |
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If you have a Sparc I honestly would upgrade to a T1 if your looking to upgrade. It wont be a completely different style optic that you have to get used to. I have played around with the idea of ditching my Eotech and going ACOG, but most of my shooting with an AR is going to be within 200 yards, so I can't justify it. Well, I considered that, but I am looking for something with a little more magnification so as to extend my range a little bit. |
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Assuming a 50 yd zero... and a flat-top mount. At ranges less than 10 yards the BAC works just fine. Impact point is ~2-3/4" below sight height at muzzle, and decreases gradually as the bullet comes to intersect line of sight at the 50 yd zero. Been using an TA31 as my primary sight for my patrol rifle for about 8 years. Love it. Quoted:
Quoted:
Thanks for the input man. So, as a follow up question, is it possible/practical to use the sights in this magnification range at extremely close ranges such as you might experience in close quarters situations? (i.e. a house) I understand that the BAC shooting style makes it easier to quickly acquire targets with higher magnification optics at closer ranges, but does that really still apply at ranges less than 10 yards? I know the easiest way to answer these questions would be to try one out for myself, but I don't have that option right now, so thanks everyone for humoring me. Assuming a 50 yd zero... and a flat-top mount. At ranges less than 10 yards the BAC works just fine. Impact point is ~2-3/4" below sight height at muzzle, and decreases gradually as the bullet comes to intersect line of sight at the 50 yd zero. Been using an TA31 as my primary sight for my patrol rifle for about 8 years. Love it. Thanks. Can I assume that a 100 yard zero would not allow for effective close range shooting? |
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Thanks. Can I assume that a 100 yard zero would not allow for effective close range shooting? Quoted:
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Thanks for the input man. So, as a follow up question, is it possible/practical to use the sights in this magnification range at extremely close ranges such as you might experience in close quarters situations? (i.e. a house) I understand that the BAC shooting style makes it easier to quickly acquire targets with higher magnification optics at closer ranges, but does that really still apply at ranges less than 10 yards? I know the easiest way to answer these questions would be to try one out for myself, but I don't have that option right now, so thanks everyone for humoring me. Assuming a 50 yd zero... and a flat-top mount. At ranges less than 10 yards the BAC works just fine. Impact point is ~2-3/4" below sight height at muzzle, and decreases gradually as the bullet comes to intersect line of sight at the 50 yd zero. Been using an TA31 as my primary sight for my patrol rifle for about 8 years. Love it. Thanks. Can I assume that a 100 yard zero would not allow for effective close range shooting? Almost identical to the 50 yd zero for close range. the difference becomes more apparent at longer distances where the bullet trajectory really starts falling. it basically "tops out' at 100 yds and then starts dropping. |
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I have nothing but great things to say about the ACOG line. We use the TA 31's at work, and while i am not a big fan of the reticle, it is stupid easy to use.
We do a lot of CQB style stuff, room clearing, shooting in towns and such, and with a little practice, and with a fully illuminated reticle, i dont see how getting rounds on target inside of a room is any slower then with a red dot. It might not be as precise as a red dot can be, but you certainly can get hits on your ivan quite quickly. If that becomes an issue, you can throw a set of the offset iron sights on there, and speed things up, even just a front sight will get you there. As for longer stuff, at like 50 and in, if you aim with the 400 meter stadia line, you will be pretty darn close to where you are aiming, or you can always eye ball it and just aim a little high 
I dont ever shoot both eyes open, and never incur any issues with the optic at 15-100 yards. The reticle is set up so easily, it makes shooting distances almost laughable. If you decide to get one, and you should, treat yourself to shooting some steel out to 5 or 600 meters. the relative ease you will get hits is almost laughable. The TA31 is my favorite optic out there for a do it all option, they are built like tanks, (smashed in an MRAP door countless times, dropped from a variety of distance, and other things that optics should not have to endure, still held zero and performed flawlessly!) We zero ours at 33 meters, BTW, and it lines everyting up, but im sure the manual it will come with can help you some as well. The only downside for me is the lack of eye relief, but to be honest, once you drill with it a little bit it goes away, Or maybe that is just because we have to use it 
If you have any other questions, i would be more than happy to help as much as i can. |
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not covered by the excellent replies above is the use of the stadia lines that subtend 19" at the indicated distances (on the 31F chevron the bottom width of the chevron is the stadia line)... with approximately 10" of wind drift on each side of the vertical line, hold offs are pretty easy...I use mine for 3 gun, with a knockoff Dueck offset, though if you push the scope slightly out of the eye box, and ghost the sides, the chevron works like a dot... just takes practice
at Ft Benning 3 gun in 2010, I had to hold approximately 15" of holdoff at 415m on a 10" MGM flash target.... 3 shots (edge, 1/2 stadia line, full stadia line) |
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Quoted: I have nothing but great things to say about the ACOG line. We use the TA 31's at work, and while i am not a big fan of the reticle, it is stupid easy to use. We do a lot of CQB style stuff, room clearing, shooting in towns and such, and with a little practice, and with a fully illuminated reticle, i dont see how getting rounds on target inside of a room is any slower then with a red dot. It might not be as precise as a red dot can be, but you certainly can get hits on your ivan quite quickly. If that becomes an issue, you can throw a set of the offset iron sights on there, and speed things up, even just a front sight will get you there. As for longer stuff, at like 50 and in, if you aim with the 400 meter stadia line, you will be pretty darn close to where you are aiming, or you can always eye ball it and just aim a little high I dont ever shoot both eyes open, and never incur any issues with the optic at 15-100 yards. The reticle is set up so easily, it makes shooting distances almost laughable. If you decide to get one, and you should, treat yourself to shooting some steel out to 5 or 600 meters. the relative ease you will get hits is almost laughable. The TA31 is my favorite optic out there for a do it all option, they are built like tanks, (smashed in an MRAP door countless times, dropped from a variety of distance, and other things that optics should not have to endure, still held zero and performed flawlessly!) We zero ours at 33 meters, BTW, and it lines everyting up, but im sure the manual it will come with can help you some as well. The only downside for me is the lack of eye relief, but to be honest, once you drill with it a little bit it goes away, Or maybe that is just because we have to use it If you have any other questions, i would be more than happy to help as much as i can. Thanks
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Would you pick an ACOG over a red dot if you do CQB stuff 75% of the time and out to 300 25% of the time? Thanks Quoted:
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I have nothing but great things to say about the ACOG line. We use the TA 31's at work, and while i am not a big fan of the reticle, it is stupid easy to use. We do a lot of CQB style stuff, room clearing, shooting in towns and such, and with a little practice, and with a fully illuminated reticle, i dont see how getting rounds on target inside of a room is any slower then with a red dot. It might not be as precise as a red dot can be, but you certainly can get hits on your ivan quite quickly. If that becomes an issue, you can throw a set of the offset iron sights on there, and speed things up, even just a front sight will get you there. As for longer stuff, at like 50 and in, if you aim with the 400 meter stadia line, you will be pretty darn close to where you are aiming, or you can always eye ball it and just aim a little high
I dont ever shoot both eyes open, and never incur any issues with the optic at 15-100 yards. The reticle is set up so easily, it makes shooting distances almost laughable. If you decide to get one, and you should, treat yourself to shooting some steel out to 5 or 600 meters. the relative ease you will get hits is almost laughable. The TA31 is my favorite optic out there for a do it all option, they are built like tanks, (smashed in an MRAP door countless times, dropped from a variety of distance, and other things that optics should not have to endure, still held zero and performed flawlessly!) We zero ours at 33 meters, BTW, and it lines everyting up, but im sure the manual it will come with can help you some as well. The only downside for me is the lack of eye relief, but to be honest, once you drill with it a little bit it goes away, Or maybe that is just because we have to use it
If you have any other questions, i would be more than happy to help as much as i can. Thanks I think I would probably stick with a red dot in those circumstances. As a matter of fact, I've qualified with an M4 with only iron sights at 300 meters and had absolutely no troubles, so I think a red dot will get the job done for you. |
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Quoted:
Would you pick an ACOG over a red dot if you do CQB stuff 75% of the time and out to 300 25% of the time? Thanks Quoted:
Quoted:
I have nothing but great things to say about the ACOG line. We use the TA 31's at work, and while i am not a big fan of the reticle, it is stupid easy to use. We do a lot of CQB style stuff, room clearing, shooting in towns and such, and with a little practice, and with a fully illuminated reticle, i dont see how getting rounds on target inside of a room is any slower then with a red dot. It might not be as precise as a red dot can be, but you certainly can get hits on your ivan quite quickly. If that becomes an issue, you can throw a set of the offset iron sights on there, and speed things up, even just a front sight will get you there. As for longer stuff, at like 50 and in, if you aim with the 400 meter stadia line, you will be pretty darn close to where you are aiming, or you can always eye ball it and just aim a little high
I dont ever shoot both eyes open, and never incur any issues with the optic at 15-100 yards. The reticle is set up so easily, it makes shooting distances almost laughable. If you decide to get one, and you should, treat yourself to shooting some steel out to 5 or 600 meters. the relative ease you will get hits is almost laughable. The TA31 is my favorite optic out there for a do it all option, they are built like tanks, (smashed in an MRAP door countless times, dropped from a variety of distance, and other things that optics should not have to endure, still held zero and performed flawlessly!) We zero ours at 33 meters, BTW, and it lines everyting up, but im sure the manual it will come with can help you some as well. The only downside for me is the lack of eye relief, but to be honest, once you drill with it a little bit it goes away, Or maybe that is just because we have to use it
If you have any other questions, i would be more than happy to help as much as i can. Thanks Here, I'd seriously consider the 1.5X TA-44 |
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Thanks. Can I assume that a 100 yard zero would not allow for effective close range shooting? Quoted:
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Thanks for the input man. So, as a follow up question, is it possible/practical to use the sights in this magnification range at extremely close ranges such as you might experience in close quarters situations? (i.e. a house) I understand that the BAC shooting style makes it easier to quickly acquire targets with higher magnification optics at closer ranges, but does that really still apply at ranges less than 10 yards? I know the easiest way to answer these questions would be to try one out for myself, but I don't have that option right now, so thanks everyone for humoring me. Assuming a 50 yd zero... and a flat-top mount. At ranges less than 10 yards the BAC works just fine. Impact point is ~2-3/4" below sight height at muzzle, and decreases gradually as the bullet comes to intersect line of sight at the 50 yd zero. Been using an TA31 as my primary sight for my patrol rifle for about 8 years. Love it. Thanks. Can I assume that a 100 yard zero would not allow for effective close range shooting? I know my ACOG (TA33) instructs me to set a 100m zero, as the range indicators are set for that. I shoot with it just find doing 3-5m drills. |
| You can always shoot occluded. Just know, for my eyes, when I shoot an ACOG occluded, I have to aim left of where I want to hit. At about 20m, I have the chevron/ghorseshoe/whatever on the targets right shoulder (left from my vantage point) to get solid COM hits. |
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You can always shoot occluded. Just know, for my eyes, when I shoot an ACOG occluded, I have to aim left of where I want to hit. At about 20m, I have the chevron/ghorseshoe/whatever on the targets right shoulder (left from my vantage point) to get solid COM hits. you are cross eye dominant then. shoulder to your opposite rifle and your hits are dead on. don't know why it is that way, but it is. Same for me |
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Quoted:
Would you pick an ACOG over a red dot if you do CQB stuff 75% of the time and out to 300 25% of the time? Thanks Quoted:
Quoted:
I have nothing but great things to say about the ACOG line. We use the TA 31's at work, and while i am not a big fan of the reticle, it is stupid easy to use. We do a lot of CQB style stuff, room clearing, shooting in towns and such, and with a little practice, and with a fully illuminated reticle, i dont see how getting rounds on target inside of a room is any slower then with a red dot. It might not be as precise as a red dot can be, but you certainly can get hits on your ivan quite quickly. If that becomes an issue, you can throw a set of the offset iron sights on there, and speed things up, even just a front sight will get you there. As for longer stuff, at like 50 and in, if you aim with the 400 meter stadia line, you will be pretty darn close to where you are aiming, or you can always eye ball it and just aim a little high
I dont ever shoot both eyes open, and never incur any issues with the optic at 15-100 yards. The reticle is set up so easily, it makes shooting distances almost laughable. If you decide to get one, and you should, treat yourself to shooting some steel out to 5 or 600 meters. the relative ease you will get hits is almost laughable. The TA31 is my favorite optic out there for a do it all option, they are built like tanks, (smashed in an MRAP door countless times, dropped from a variety of distance, and other things that optics should not have to endure, still held zero and performed flawlessly!) We zero ours at 33 meters, BTW, and it lines everyting up, but im sure the manual it will come with can help you some as well. The only downside for me is the lack of eye relief, but to be honest, once you drill with it a little bit it goes away, Or maybe that is just because we have to use it
If you have any other questions, i would be more than happy to help as much as i can. Thanks I have never personally been in a position where 4X was too much magnification, but i have been in a few where i was very glad i had more than just a red dot. CQB stuff changes rapidly, and you can go from shooting inside of a room, to trying to find a target inside a window, on the third floor, 200 meters away. a red dot will get you around where you think the target could be, ACOG can find you a target. |
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ACOGs are awesome and versatile. Not as good as a red dot for targets inside 20 meters, or multiple targets inside 100...But so much better for everything beyond 100.
If you are that worried about speed up close, get one with the irons or the docter on top of it. Or get an offset mount for your sparc and use that as a secondary. |
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ACOGs are awesome and versatile. Not as good as a red dot for targets inside 20 meters, or multiple targets inside 100...But so much better for everything beyond 100. If you are that worried about speed up close, get one with the irons or the docter on top of it. Or get an offset mount for your sparc and use that as a secondary. Agreed! but i would shy away from the RMR/Docter style attatchment ontop... Everyone I know uses the SDO instead of the RMR, simply because of how high it is... a 45 degree SPARC would be ideal.. You will soon find yourself not needing anything but the ACOG, as you become more comfortable with it. |
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you are cross eye dominant then. shoulder to your opposite rifle and your hits are dead on. don't know why it is that way, but it is. Same for me Quoted:
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You can always shoot occluded. Just know, for my eyes, when I shoot an ACOG occluded, I have to aim left of where I want to hit. At about 20m, I have the chevron/ghorseshoe/whatever on the targets right shoulder (left from my vantage point) to get solid COM hits. you are cross eye dominant then. shoulder to your opposite rifle and your hits are dead on. don't know why it is that way, but it is. Same for me Almost cross eye dominate. Both of my eyes are dominate if that makes sense. When I am shouldering my rifle on my left side, I draw info from my left eye and when it is on my right side, I draw from my right eye. I did the finger test with both my left and right hand and it is always on the side that I am using at the time. When it is occluded though, the only information coming from my right eye is the dot/chevron/whatever and I am getting target information from my left eye. I shoot as if focused on my target so at that particular time, I am drawing info from my left eye. When shooting occluded with my left/weak side, I have to hold the chevron on the right side/shoulder. |
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The 4x models are meant to be zeroed at 100m. From there each line below that corresponds to roughly the width of a human chest at that distant. For example, the 3 line corresponds to the approximate width of a human chest at 300m. From 100-600m, the optic is king. Using standard 62gr ammunition, you should be very accurate.
Less than that, you can still hit targets rather easily with both eyes open. The BAC will superimpose the reticle with what you're looking at. From my experience, keeping both eyes open is not ideal if you're shooting targets at 100m. The BAC is only good for close range. The cool thing is you can get a TA31 with an RMR. That helps with targets less than 100 m. Biggest issue with the ACOG 4x models? The eye relief is horrible. You'll likely need the optics as far back on the rifle as you can. Depending on how you shoot, you'll have to keep your nose on the charger to really get a good sight picture. Some folks don't like that. If you can't get the acog far back as you can, I recommend the Larue RCO mount. I got that for my m1a that I have a ta31ecos. I have a ta01nsn on my ar15 spare model. I have the larue mount on both of them. I really love the acog. |
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