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Posted: 12/23/2004 10:26:24 PM EDT
| HI guys does anybody know of someone that rewelds M16 cut up lowers to legal semi the only guy i know gets $500+ for a reweld and im on a budget any ideas .Thanks Rude |
Correct! Only a registered MG lower can be repaired/rewelded. |
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My understanding------------------------ It is not illegal, as proper demilling "destroyed" the receiver. If you reweld it to include the evil hole, you would be building a new machinegun. If you did not include the evil hole in your reweld, or welded it up before you welded up a reciever you are in the clear. It is a VERY fine line. The reason I understand MKS got in hot water was that they improperly demilled those M14s. Kept the reciever halves together instead of grabbing halves out of a drum, so to speak. They might have been demilled with a bandsaw instead of torch cutting (?) |
+1 First, I don't see why you would want to do this unless you are building a machine gun. Second doing so without the correct licensing is a FELONY any way you look at it. Just buy a completed receiver from your FFL or if you really want to build it from scratch, buy a 80% lower and finish it. If you really want a MG, save the dough and buy a registered one. |
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The long, drawn out nasty MKS debacle was over re-welding "de-milled" M-14 receivers, "de-milled" in Israel by carefully cutting them in two, wiring the halfs together, and calling it a day. Those halves, after relocating the lug for the connector, were carefully welded back together, then assembled into rifles using surplus parts. Things went downhill from there. ALL receivers were tracked down and confiscated by or surrendered to BATF. Charges were filed and a court battle ensued. Mike Kelly eventually beat MOST of the charges against him, but some remained. The owners of the seized weapons, as far as I know never got them back. There are other cases pending over improperly demilled kits sold in the US. FALs, for instance. BATF requires a "demilling" to be conducted in such a manner as it is very nearly impossible to reconstruct the receiver. Example is to cut with a torch, completely through the receiver, in such a manner that each cut displaces 1/2 inch of metal in the cut. Helluva lot of effort to redo a receiver demilled in such a manner, AND if the autosear holes are left intact, you just manufactured a machinegun. Oops. Save yourself some grief, time, money and trouble. Buy a semi lower. EDIT: P.S. $10K for a registered receiver plus $200 Transfer tax, is less than you'll hand over to a lawyer, who plea bargains your charge down to where you only lose your right to own a firearm and spend only a short stretch in Club Fed.  Lonny |
According to previous ATF rulings, if the reciever markings are for a select fire weapon, it will be so until hell freezes over, and it does not matter one bit whether or not any select fire parts, are, or can be instelled. Example? When the government released M1 carbines thru the DCM some years back, all that were marked M2 were destroyed, not sold. Many of the M1 marked units had in fact been converted to M2s by parts replacemnt. These were converted back to M1 status, and sold. In fact, one of the pieces I got at the time was just such a piece. It still had an M2 trigger housing, and disconnector in it, and you could tell from wear marks on those pieces that they had been part of an M2 conversion. Welding up the auto sear hole in an M16 lower won't do a thing to legalize it---if it still says M16 on the lower. |
While this is true, it is counter to what the law which says, if it fires more than one round per pull of the trigger, it is a machine gun. ATF has made quite a few rulings that are contrary to the law. Of course they may make an arrest and try to make a case. This would expensive to fight but I wager it is winable. It would be hard to make a case for "constructive intent if you weld up the sear hole making it impossible to accept an M16 sear, especially if you used all AR15 fire control parts. |
John Norrell does not do them anymore. Talk to this guy in Jan. 2005: American Manufacturing. |
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Illegal AFAIK. If you want Hydramatic/Commando/wahtever markings get an 80% lower and finish it yourself, and there is an ad in the NFA EE for a guy that does engraving of lowers. Or see about gettinga sepcial run of lowers with the markings done as a group buy. My two cents Dawg |
+1 Rewelding would be a lot of work just to get the reciever markings. The demilled M16 lower is less complete than a new 80% lower so why make more work for yourself? Any decent engraver should be able to replicate the markings. A properly demilled receiver is just a paper weight, even if you have all the pieces from the same gun. The torch cut is supposed remove ~1/2" of metal (IIRC) so the parts can't just be lined back together & rewelded. You'd have to find a front & rear section that had been cut slightly differently so as to have enuff material to make up the missing 1/2". Weld up the sear pin hole on the rear section (it's no longer a machinegun, just a hunk of AL) first, then trim the parts to fit, align the 2 parts, TIG them together & refinish. The "US Property", "M16A1/A2 <etc>", & "Full" selector markings don't mean jackshit in re to it's legallity if everything else is legit. There's no legal prohibition on stamping a completed virgin 80% lower with the exact same markings. I wouldn't suggest marking one like that, why draw attention from clueless Barney Fife types (the ones who think that you can file the firing pin to get fullauto, etc). The "M16" & "Full" markings will insure you getting arrested & it confiscated while they "straighten things out" down at the station. Sure, you'll (maybe, eventually...) get out & get it back but why risk the hassle. |
A guy on the FALFILES was rewelding Bren receivers and even submitted one to the BATFE for approval. He made modifications so that it could not operate as an MG. BATFE approved. It appears that since the original receiver was "destroyed", this is simply manufacturing a new receiver using some "parts". Key point is destruction of the original received using an approved method that assures BATFE compliance with the destruction. Some FAL receivers were not cut properly, thus were still considered MG receivers by BATFE. Rewelding these would have be a repair, not manufacture of semi-auto receiver. FWIW. |
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I had not thought of that idea until mentioned here, but if you had a SP1 rear half, and say a Colt's Model 601 front half, then that would not be a machine gun, nor a firearm. If you had a guy weld the two together (with new serial number and MFG info) it would be a new semiauto firearm. That would be darn cool, in that it would be a slab side with a small hole front pivot pin, would be marked Colt's ArmaLite AR-15 Model 01, and the selector setting would be SAFE and FIRE. Nothing on it would give Barney the cop anything to worry about anymore then a regular SP1. So, where do you get front ends at? I know they are out there, John use to weld them up all the time, but I only know where to get back ends. |
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Hmm, well if you are going to weld on it, might as well just weld the front pivot hole on a SP1, and redrill it for a small hole, would be the same thing, less the markings (in regards to making a slab side 601 clone) But, if you had a Model 603/XM16E1 front end, and a SP1 rear end, those two together would have features that I know of no other way to get legally in a semiauto. |
| Thats right i have an xm16,xm16e1,Harrington Richardson and a GM hydramatic among others id like to reweld. i picked up 10 semi 80% lowers a few years ago that i can use for the back ends and just need the welder to start doin them like i said before .I saw an Xm16e1 that john had rewelded and it even had a circle milled where the sear pin would be located but didnot go all the way through so from the out side it looked like it had a sear .what he did was put his info on the right side of the mag well but all the original markings were still on thr left side verry cool indeed especially if you have registerd DIAS Ill keep info comming on this project as i get it Thanks for the info |
Like the guys are saying ex452, don't think this is a very good idea, tell you what, I will do you a favor, just sell that stuff to me |
| I know the burden is great but mine to bear ;) Actually the halfs i have look like new in fact a couple still have the painted ordinance eagle on the right side of the mag well id love to save it but a refinish job will remove it .I have an issue of firepower magazine from the 80's that has an article by John Norell That showes how to go about the reweld process even has a pic of the jig he used .Its a good starting place any way .Lets see how many old timers are here do you remember the American Firepower Association ? and Firepower Magazine ? I was a member and subscriber .Please keep the info comming guys and thanks Rude |
I wouldn't go that far, I have friends who shall remain nameless in states that shall remain nameless that still have their receivers, they have been stripped down and they are waiting for the ATF, no sign of them yet...... Stupid tax agents....... 
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