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Posted: 4/6/2005 8:00:27 PM EDT
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Just pick up a 55gr .223 value pack that said made in Israel on the back. is this stuff loaded to the same specs a M193? I looked on Winchesters website and it showed USA223R1 at 3240fps and Q3131A at 3270 there in not much of a difference between the two except on my box it says USA223R1VP I dont know if that means anything. |
So if the components are the same, then the fragmentation qualities should be the same. That is to say, above 2700 fps, it can be counted on to do what Q3131A does when it encounters tissue. If it runs about 100 fps slower than Q3131A, then it will not be reliable out to the same distance. So if that is all true, then it does not add up to "don't use for self-defense" as some have said. What that means is "use for self-defense at closer distances." All of that is assuming that the bullet will fragment in the same manner as Q3131A or M193. Would like to have an authoritative answer on that; been wondering about the same thing. |
Yes, a long time ago there was a thread where someone had chronoed this stuff. I don't remember the numbers though, sorry. There were also discussions about the bullet, althought not proven it was believed the bullet was the same as Q3131A. The primers are crimped and sealed and the bullets have sealant on them too. Basically it looks like the stuff is Mil spec except for the velocity. |
Some chrono results at AR15.com > Ammunition Forum > Ammunition Review and Reference > Winchester .223. |
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Outdoor marksman claims that their 50 round Value packs are the same thing as Q3131A but just packaged differently.. Thats what I was thinking about this ammo. www.outdoormarksman.com/product_info.php?cPath=65_63_33&products_id=8179 |
| the usa223 is chronoed from a 24" and the q3131a is chronoed from a 20". That what there literature shows now, last year, the year before that. The q is m193 and hotter than the usa223. If you look, even the bullet shape is a hair different. The q is more Pointy I believe. |
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Shouldn't it be IMI223 instead of USA brand. A little misleading isn't it. My boxes also say Made in Israel and is headstamped 223. I shot some the other day and it was 1" groups at 100 using bipod and 3x9x40 Nikon. Don't know about velocity. I have one rifle that doesn't consistently lock back with the USA223 but is fine with Q3131A and Q3131. Will have to take that rifle to the range next time and try it with this new stuff. M4-AK |
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"So if that is all true, then it does not add up to "don't use for self-defense" as some have said. What that means is "use for self-defense at closer distances." All of that is assuming that the bullet will fragment in the same manner as Q3131A or M193. Would like to have an authoritative answer on that; been wondering about the same thing." You'd have a hard time proving "self defense" at more than about 15 feet. 100fps difference between the two should be a non issue for most of us. |
You are talking about the statistically probably social encounter. For the sort of thing that is most likely to occur, you are correct. I am talking about the whole range of possible encounters. If you can't imagine having to defend yourself at more than 15 feet (5yds), you need to get out of the city more. Even on the little 2 acre place I used to own, a 100yd shot would not have been out of the question. It is not hard to imagine several scenarios in that setting, which are not ridiculous at all. At five yards, I'd rather have my shotgun anyway. |
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" It is not hard to imagine several scenarios in that setting, which are not ridiculous at all." Actually, I do live in the country..on the same 10 acres I've owned for the past 12 years. PLease understand that I don't mean to argue with you, but I honestly can't think of a "self defense" scenario at 100yds or more. I'm going on the assumption that you were referring to defending yourself from another human being, not a raging animal. Can you elaborate? |
Not without further information about your particular circumstances. Otherwise, it's just speculation, not worth much. Just to give one obvious situation, though, the Tueller drill pre-supposes a distance of 21ft. That's more than your 5yd limit, yet it is a well-accepted standard for self-defense training. In my current locale, which is an apartment complex in a small town, the most recent encounters I've had have been at 3 ft, 5 ft and 20yds. The first two were handled with quick thinking and command voice. The officer who arrived in time to keep the last one from getting bloody, and it was abou to, said that from what he could see as he approached, I was exercising great restraint and would have been well-justified if I had defended myself. The guy was obviously on drugs and not amenable to reason. 20yds is a really small distance at a time like that. I'm not saying the longer distances are likely. I have spent most of my training time over the years in preparation for encounters from contact distance out to 15yds, with most of it 10yds and under. But I also spend some time, even with a hand-gun, training for encounters out to 100yds. If you think it can't happen, then your first thought when it does happen will be, "This can't be happening." That hesitation will cost you. I just want to suggest that you do some deeper tactical thinking about your situation and don't be overly influenced by the urban tactics gurus. If you are only thinking about the up-to-5yds scenarios, you will have to wing it on anything else. |
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