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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Warning ***Graphic*** (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 10/29/2009 6:47:26 PM EDT
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Gent's (Mod's please move if needed),
I came across this pdf presentation regarding an LE shooting. I think the results are interesting regarding the 40 S&W (Speer 180 gr. Gold Dots) and .223 (Hornady TAP 55 & 75 gr.) ammunition capabilities. Graphic Your thoughts? Sakic #19 
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| interesting lack of penetration on the .40 S&W, but this is consistent with what I've seen on the street. .40 cal is good if shot placement is good. I think it was Jeff Cooper (I could be wrong on the origin of this) that said that a handgun is what you use to fight your way back to your shotgun. Good shot placement with .223 or 12 ga is prob best choice. |
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interesting lack of penetration on the .40 S&W, but this is consistent with what I've seen on the street. .40 cal is good if shot placement is good. I think it was Jeff Cooper (I could be wrong on the origin of this) that said that a handgun is what you use to fight your way back to your shotgun. Good shot placement with .223 or 12 ga is prob best choice. Cooper wasn't a shotgun man. REad the slides again. 107 rounds fired with 17 hits in a 3.5 minute gunfight..................... 
For the reading comprehension impaired, I quote: "Shot placement is everything in a gunfight and always the key to stopping a threat effectively." |
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What the author of the comment was saying is that a long gun is a better choice, and I was agreeing with their shot placement conclusion, A rifle is only a better choice in the hands of a marksman. Otherwise, rocks are an equally effective "better choice"............. I have personally seen cops who were excellent shots with a pistol: the only safe place when they were shooting a rifle, was standing directly behind them. Ammo makes no difference in the equation. This may be a generalization, however, very few agencies recieve anything close to enough range time or ammo down range to make them effective with a rifle. |
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What the author of the comment was saying is that a long gun is a better choice, and I was agreeing with their shot placement conclusion, A rifle is only a better choice in the hands of a marksman. Otherwise, rocks are an equally effective "better choice"............. I have personally seen cops who were excellent shots with a pistol: the only safe place when they were shooting a rifle, was standing directly behind them. Ammo makes no difference in the equation. This may be a generalization, however, very few agencies recieve anything close to enough range time or ammo down range to make them effective with a rifle. The assumption here should always be that a person, especially an LEO, should only be carrying weapons they are proficient with. If they can't handle their adrenaline, then they should drive an ice cream truck. for instance, every officer in a unit I once worked in qualified with a rating of "expert" with pistols, some shot IPSC on the side. None ever seemed to be able hit a charging pit bull with a handgun. The unit was 100% for pitbulls when the SG was deployed. The right equipment for the job, along with proficiency with the equipment. Any LEO who is unsafe with a rifle shouldn't be carrying one. |
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Shot placement it this situation seems to be the extremities and the very edge of the torso for the most part, along with the ass.
How many rounds in the butt did this guy get? I couldn't look at the ass pic too long to count...
I'm not questioning the marksmanship of the LEO's or their abilities. The penetration/lethality of .40 or most any handgun ammo is dramatically impacted by clothing. The clothing issue was 'why' Hornaday did the research on Critical Defense rounds that won't be 'defeated' by heavy clothing (usually the hollow points 'clog' with fabric and do not expand...looks like that happened here). The .223's were all shot from underneath patrol cars and had to go through the perps ass to kill him as he lay prone from the vicious foot wound. I'd call it a win for .223 and a 'what would you expect' from the .40 verses heavy clothing. |
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Count me as an uninformed civilian... WTF is this about the .40 Gold Dots?
The statements: 1. "All rounds penetrated less than 1". All of the rounds expanded fully but did not cause incapacitation due to the lack of penetration." 2. "Results of Speer 180 gr. Gold Dot satisfy FBI standards for terminal performance." 3. "It is impossible for .40 S&W 180 gr. JHP ammunition to expand with only 1 in. or less penetration in a human body." 4. "The .40 S&W ammunition did not fail in this incident." I am left with the strange conclusion that if the ammunition is up to spec, then the lack of penetration was caused by the down jacket defeating the bullets! Will somebody please clue me in on what ISN'T stated in this report? The author wants me to believe that statements #1 and #3 are both true, even though they appear to contradict each other! |
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Shot placement it this situation seems to be the extremities and the very edge of the torso for the most part, along with the ass. How many rounds in the butt did this guy get? I couldn't look at the ass pic too long to count...
I didn't see any...any .223's into the center of the torso and that's why this guy lived to be cuffed. I'm not questioning the marksmanship of the LEO's or their abilities, I'm just sayin the shots are everywhere but center and head (a bad idea if you're looking for high percentage hits) but I think there must have been a barrier of some sort to create this wound pattern. He had to have had protection to his midsection and head w/100+ shots fired at him. Just to be clear, I was making no judgment about the officers involved in the incident that is the basis of this thread-just to the comment that was quoted in my previous comment. The guys in the incident that was studied took care of business, regardless of ammo effectiveness. |
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Count me as an uninformed civilian... WTF is this about the .40 Gold Dots? The statements: 1. "All rounds penetrated less than 1". All of the rounds expanded fully but did not cause incapacitation due to the lack of penetration." 2. "Results of Speer 180 gr. Gold Dot satisfy FBI standards for terminal performance." 3. "It is impossible for .40 S&W 180 gr. JHP ammunition to expand with only 1 in. or less penetration in a human body." 4. "The .40 S&W ammunition did not fail in this incident." I am left with the strange conclusion that if the ammunition is up to spec, then the lack of penetration was caused by the down jacket defeating the bullets! Will somebody please clue me in on what ISN'T stated in this report? The author wants me to believe that statements #1 and #3 are both true, even though they appear to contradict each other! I for one do not believe that there would only be 1" of penetration each from multiple 180 gold dots. |
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Shot placement it this situation seems to be the extremities and the very edge of the torso for the most part, along with the ass. How many rounds in the butt did this guy get? I couldn't look at the ass pic too long to count...
I didn't see any...any .223's into the center of the torso and that's why this guy lived to be cuffed. I'm not questioning the marksmanship of the LEO's or their abilities, I'm just sayin the shots are everywhere but center and head (a bad idea if you're looking for high percentage hits) but I think there must have been a barrier of some sort to create this wound pattern. He had to have had protection to his midsection and head w/100+ shots fired at him. Just to be clear, I was making no judgment about the officers involved in the incident that is the basis of this thread-just to the comment that was quoted in my previous comment. The guys in the incident that was studied took care of business, regardless of ammo effectiveness. I actually re-read the bullet points (no pun) and edited my comments...sorry! |
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Count me as an uninformed civilian... WTF is this about the .40 Gold Dots? The statements: 1. "All rounds penetrated less than 1". All of the rounds expanded fully but did not cause incapacitation due to the lack of penetration." 2. "Results of Speer 180 gr. Gold Dot satisfy FBI standards for terminal performance." 3. "It is impossible for .40 S&W 180 gr. JHP ammunition to expand with only 1 in. or less penetration in a human body." 4. "The .40 S&W ammunition did not fail in this incident." I am left with the strange conclusion that if the ammunition is up to spec, then the lack of penetration was caused by the down jacket defeating the bullets! Will somebody please clue me in on what ISN'T stated in this report? The author wants me to believe that statements #1 and #3 are both true, even though they appear to contradict each other! I for one do not believe that there would only be 1" of penetration each from multiple 180 gold dots. This slide show was made to address the bad intel that circulated the web about this shootout. Read through the slides. |
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Count me as an uninformed civilian... WTF is this about the .40 Gold Dots? The statements: 1. "All rounds penetrated less than 1". All of the rounds expanded fully but did not cause incapacitation due to the lack of penetration." 2. "Results of Speer 180 gr. Gold Dot satisfy FBI standards for terminal performance." 3. "It is impossible for .40 S&W 180 gr. JHP ammunition to expand with only 1 in. or less penetration in a human body." 4. "The .40 S&W ammunition did not fail in this incident." I am left with the strange conclusion that if the ammunition is up to spec, then the lack of penetration was caused by the down jacket defeating the bullets! Will somebody please clue me in on what ISN'T stated in this report? The author wants me to believe that statements #1 and #3 are both true, even though they appear to contradict each other! Read the last slides. The first slides, which statement 1 comes from, are copied from an "LEO blog" to demonstrate how misinformation is disseminated by blogs. The .40 performed as advertised. • There is plenty of inaccurate information regarding ballistics/terminal performance disseminated on web forums, even those which are dedicated as LE only. • The .40 S&W ammunition did not fail in this incident. Later discussion and examination determined the 1" penetration was an improper conclusion. Rounds went through and though extremities then lodged ~1" deep in the chest, travelling through ~12-16" of tissue. The initial Coroner made a mistake. |
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You hit a big ole buck dead center in the vitals with your 30 06 superduper powerpoint expandomatic and you are not surprised when it runs off, and you find it after 25 to 100 yards or more...
But when a man is hit with a pistol bullet he is supposed to fall down dead! Hello... ...then hit that man with a number of peripheral hits missing vitals with each shot... you are shocked the adrenalin pumped guy has to be fought to be handcuffed! double hello!! |
blading is required at a 45o angle. |
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I know those cops hada "massive adrenaline dump", but maybe they shot so shitty because they weren't "bladed at 30 degrees"? And you would have shot better under those same circumstances? Call a timeout perhaps? DISCLAIMER: That's a joke for arfcommers who get it. |
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Count me as an uninformed civilian... WTF is this about the .40 Gold Dots? The statements: 1. "All rounds penetrated less than 1". All of the rounds expanded fully but did not cause incapacitation due to the lack of penetration." 2. "Results of Speer 180 gr. Gold Dot satisfy FBI standards for terminal performance." 3. "It is impossible for .40 S&W 180 gr. JHP ammunition to expand with only 1 in. or less penetration in a human body." 4. "The .40 S&W ammunition did not fail in this incident." I am left with the strange conclusion that if the ammunition is up to spec, then the lack of penetration was caused by the down jacket defeating the bullets! Will somebody please clue me in on what ISN'T stated in this report? The author wants me to believe that statements #1 and #3 are both true, even though they appear to contradict each other! I for one do not believe that there would only be 1" of penetration each from multiple 180 gold dots. I agree with your assessment. If you look at the neck wound you can see that bullet is the only one not to deform. All of the rest have some degree of expansion. If the one that shattered his right arm is a pistol bullet it still left bullet fragments befor exiting. That hip shot would not have made him immobile and but that foot wound would certainly make him alter his plans about being swift and mobile in my unprofessional opinion. |
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I learned "shoot him in the head(at most twice) problem solved. GREAT idea. It's funny though... most will not stand still and stop shooting at you long enough so you can get that good shot! Yea it works better with zombies! ETA: Zombies load mags from a box faster. |
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Shot placement is key......Especially when it hits the dome. Everything stops. Trust me, 1098cya Have you read the story of the cop who got attacked by a man with a knife and .38? He was inducted into the surviving officers' hall of fame or whatever it's called. He shot the perp in the head with a .40. It ricocheted off his forehead and travelled under his scalp and out the back. A shot too the butt killed him - traveled all the way up to his neck. I'm not really disagreeing with you, just pointing out that strange things can happen. I guess this is why silhouette targets have less points for hitting the outer edge of the head. |
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So... a inch of penetration is *not* FAIL, according to the FBI?
I understand LEOs problem with overpenetration with .223, but it seems like it was the 223 that took the guy down and did the most damage. I CCW with 165gr Gold Dots and I'm kinda starting to question them now. I love the tattoo.... IRONY. 
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(I am not sure where this post should go. If it need be moved please do so with my apology)
That is friggin Horrible! I have to wonder, why would that kid ambush the police? He had to know that was suicide. What would motivate him to do something like that? Anyway, from the reading it sounds like the kid was still alive and fighting when they handcuffed him. That's scary! I keep one of two guns within arms reach when I am at home, a .38 Special 5-shot revolver with 3 inch barrel loaded with 110gr Win. Silver Tip or a CZ 75 SPO1 in 9mm loaded with 16 rounds 124gr. Speer Gold Dot. Usually the CZ unless it being cleaned after a day at the range. I keep the 18 round mags loaded with only 16 rounds because I'm thinking they would be more reliable during the first few shots. I bought the CZ new and once I put in a slightly reduced power recoil spring there hasn't been a single stoppage even with my handloads. I am almost a senior citizen and just a little shit who lives alone with a little shit dog. If 6'6" 240 lb. guy who just spent the last decade pumping iron in a grayrock facility who is full of rage were to kick my door down I don't think 2 even 3 rounds to the torso of .38 or 9mm GD would stop him before he snapped my neck! Maybe i should keep one of the 1911 .45 autos at the ready? I also have a S&W 686 .357 mag with a big-O 6 inch barrel. I could also handload FULL power maximum loads topped with Gold Dots for the above guns. What forum in ar15.com is best suited for the above self defense type questions? Thanks EveryOne -VonBarky- |
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So... a inch of penetration is *not* FAIL, according to the FBI? I understand LEOs problem with overpenetration with .223, but it seems like it was the 223 that took the guy down and did the most damage. I CCW with 165gr Gold Dots and I'm kinda starting to question them now. For crying out loud! RIF! They DID NOT penetrate only 1"! The blog page quoted was WRONG! Read the entire presentation and this thread. |
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I learned "shoot him in the head(at most twice) problem solved. GREAT idea. It's funny though... most will not stand still and stop shooting at you long enough so you can get that good shot! Yea it works better with zombies! ETA: Zombies load mags from a box faster.
Are you implying the BG loaded magazines from boxed ammo without using cover and this is when the officers could have taken the head shot??? But they were incapable due to lack of basic marksmanship skills? My guess is the post shooting investigation revealed this tidbit, and the BG did not openly stand there and do so within clear sight of the officers! I have responded to more than a few shooting scenes, and even officers who score well in qualifications don't often do well in actual shoot outs. The paper does not shoot back, and when bullets are incoming, calmly hitting the X ring is not so easy (or in your suggestion the head). I hope you are not implying anything by your comments. It is not like TV, and when you are trying not to get shot, it is not unusual for even the best scorer to not have CM hits on a BG. I think the point of this original post is: A. there are no magic bullets B. shot placement is a key ...and it is not meant to be an indictment on the skill level of the officers. What are your observations (if any) from officer involved shootings? |
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(I am not sure where this post should go. If it need be moved please do so with my apology) Maybe i should keep one of the 1911 .45 autos at the ready? I also have a S&W 686 .357 mag with a big-O 6 inch barrel. I could also handload FULL power maximum loads topped with Gold Dots for the above guns. What forum in ar15.com is best suited for the above self defense type questions? Thanks EveryOne -VonBarky- i appreciate ur questions. i feel pretty comfortable that the way i train my wife and daughter to shoot would work, if necessary. 1st step - aim the gun. 2nd step - pull the trigger. 3rd step - repeat steps 1 & 2 until gun is empty. we would rely on our 9mm and 40 S&W glocks. btw, we practice at 30 feet. 10 yards. another issue is ur capability to keep your act together in this event. it's easy to shoot the target at the range - but if mr. 'live by the gun die by the gun" enters your home - it's different. some people can't do it. make up your mind what you want to do. i get pretty calmly enraged from experience in these situations - i've been "attempted" attacked a couple of times when i lived in the inner city in my single days. see the AMMO tackies about defense ammo - i trust it. of course, i don;t live where people wear 4 layers of clothing in the normal course of the day. and ... i live in an area where everyone is not in this situation. if i felt like i was even slightly threatened with a home invasion, i would move. simple. good luck. |
| I don't get it. The FBI review criticizes .223 per their general test data but say nothing about its terminal effects in this situation, leaving the original blog comments to implicitly stand. Based on that, while the .40 performed largely to spec, the .223 still did the more ultimately fatal damage due to deeper penetration (whether inherent or by flight path) and internal wound area. Am I missing something here? And on what grounds do they criticize the .223 in the first place, this isn't familiar to me? |
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Shot placement is key......Especially when it hits the dome. Everything stops. Trust me, 1098cya Have you read the story of the cop who got attacked by a man with a knife and .38? He was inducted into the surviving officers' hall of fame or whatever it's called. He shot the perp in the head with a .40. It ricocheted off his forehead and travelled under his scalp and out the back. A shot too the butt killed him - traveled all the way up to his neck. I'm not really disagreeing with you, just pointing out that strange things can happen. I guess this is why silhouette targets have less points for hitting the outer edge of the head. Yes, you are correct that strange things can happen....So I will correct myself...."Especially when it hits the dome right." "Everything stops" |
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Shot placement is key......Especially when it hits the dome. Everything stops. Trust me, 1098cya Have you read the story of the cop who got attacked by a man with a knife and .38? He was inducted into the surviving officers' hall of fame or whatever it's called. He shot the perp in the head with a .40. It ricocheted off his forehead and travelled under his scalp and out the back. A shot too the butt killed him - traveled all the way up to his neck. I'm not really disagreeing with you, just pointing out that strange things can happen. I guess this is why silhouette targets have less points for hitting the outer edge of the head. Yes, you are correct that strange things can happen....So I will correct myself...."Especially when it hits the dome right." "Everything stops" Head shots are a good "off switch", but making a good one while taking incoming fire has a high degree of difficulty! And face reality... most cops are not gun guys/gals. They shoot only for quals and mandatory range days and no more. The cop that shoots on his/her own time is not as common as most think. The gun is a tool on their belt and other than that many have no interest in guns personally. If you have one (a head shot) and you can make it work... go for it. Personally, I'd rather a quick center mass hit than a shot at the head that missed when incoming rounds are moving my direction. There is a reason the order fired when training is two center mass and one to the head. Having run such drills in training for more "trainees" and in service qualifications than I can count in a 20 year career as a firearms instructor/rangemaster... I saw a countless number of paper head shots that were technically in the score ring, but I'd hate to count on if they had been fired at a real head on someone trying to kill the officer. I saw even more clear misses because the shooter did not slow slightly to get a good trigger press. That paper was not shooting back and was a mere 21 feet away. LOTS of dropped points on the head shots in qualification. If it were just as easy in real life as on TV and in the movies!!!!! |
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I don't get it. The FBI review criticizes .223 per their general test data but say nothing about its terminal effects in this situation, leaving the original blog comments to implicitly stand. Based on that, while the .40 performed largely to spec, the .223 still did the more ultimately fatal damage due to deeper penetration (whether inherent or by flight path) and internal wound area. Am I missing something here? And on what grounds do they criticize the .223 in the first place, this isn't familiar to me? IIRC, the Police expected an instant terminal effect from the .223. Since they had to handcuff the suspect to take him into custody, he wasn't terminal. So this is why the brief states it didn;t perform as expected. The brief notes the .223 performed as advertised by the manufacturer, but not to the expectations of the Police. Both the blog and the after notes mention the fact that many of the .223 passed completely through the suspect. |
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I have to wonder, why would that kid ambush the police? He had to know that was suicide. What would motivate him to do something like that? I wouldn't call him a kid; he was 18, and therefore an adult. Not only that, he was a thug, and fortunately taxpayers don't have to pay to reconstruct his bullet-riddled body so he can spend the rest of his worthless life in prison. As to why...maybe the cops made him pour out his beer on the side of the road earlier in the day, and he decided he wanted payback? Maybe one of his equally worthless homies got hauled off to the clink for violating some law? At the same time, however, this is a good lesson in never underestimating your opponent. On Cops, I saw a similar thug get a minor gunshot wound to the leg, and he was screaming like a little girl. This guy did anything but... |
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it must have been the traces of marijuana in his system... I fail to see what this has to do with the shooting. Marijuana doesn't make one the Hulk like PCP or something more hard core would... I'm not a medical examiner, though. Dude, I believe that was a joke. 
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Determined individuals can sustain many gunshot wounds in areas that produce great pain and continue to fight a long time, even without the aid of drugs or alcohol.
Shot placement is everything in a gunfight and always the key to stopping a threat effectively. Every round worked AT LEAST as well as the FBI expected it to. Being shot in the hip hurts like hell but it is NOT incapacitating, nor is having your foot or elbow destroyed by gunfire. An aorta, on the other hand, is a "10 second" target-he'll bleed out in far less than that, even with a small hole. Placement, placement, placement...even the guy that said "shoot him in the head, at most twice" is right-that's PLACEMENT. And the assailant could have been taken down with a .22LR with two shots to the head-if they were placed so the 22 could work properly. It's not appropriate to apply military combat aiming tactics to police (or civil) shootings, because the participants are completely different. A determined soldier can continue fighting with many wounds (read most Medal of Honor citations), but a UNIT with multiple wounded loses effectiveness, and if you wound enough members of a unit it ceases to be effective. A determined MAN, on the other hand, can continue to fight with many wounds, and probably has plenty of motivation to keep fighting. |
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What about shots to the pelvic region to (attempt to) cause the skeletal system to fail. If you shatter the pevis, you loose all skeletal integrity.
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Shot placement is key......Especially when it hits the dome. Everything stops. Trust me, 1098cya Have you read the story of the cop who got attacked by a man with a knife and .38? He was inducted into the surviving officers' hall of fame or whatever it's called. He shot the perp in the head with a .40. It ricocheted off his forehead and travelled under his scalp and out the back. A shot too the butt killed him - traveled all the way up to his neck. I'm not really disagreeing with you, just pointing out that strange things can happen. I guess this is why silhouette targets have less points for hitting the outer edge of the head. Yes, you are correct that strange things can happen....So I will correct myself...."Especially when it hits the dome right." "Everything stops" Head shots are a good "off switch", but making a good one while taking incoming fire has a high degree of difficulty! And face reality... most cops are not gun guys/gals. They shoot only for quals and mandatory range days and no more. The cop that shoots on his/her own time is not as common as most think. The gun is a tool on their belt and other than that many have no interest in guns personally. If you have one (a head shot) and you can make it work... go for it. Personally, I'd rather a quick center mass hit than a shot at the head that missed when incoming rounds are moving my direction. There is a reason the order fired when training is two center mass and one to the head. Having run such drills in training for more "trainees" and in service qualifications than I can count in a 20 year career as a firearms instructor/rangemaster... I saw a countless number of paper head shots that were technically in the score ring, but I'd hate to count on if they had been fired at a real head on someone trying to kill the officer. I saw even more clear misses because the shooter did not slow slightly to get a good trigger press. That paper was not shooting back and was a mere 21 feet away. LOTS of dropped points on the head shots in qualification. If it were just as easy in real life as on TV and in the movies!!!!! |
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Shot placement is key......Especially when it hits the dome. Everything stops. Trust me, 1098cya Have you read the story of the cop who got attacked by a man with a knife and .38? He was inducted into the surviving officers' hall of fame or whatever it's called. He shot the perp in the head with a .40. It ricocheted off his forehead and travelled under his scalp and out the back. A shot too the butt killed him - traveled all the way up to his neck. I'm not really disagreeing with you, just pointing out that strange things can happen. I guess this is why silhouette targets have less points for hitting the outer edge of the head. I have seen the results of this....A call we responded to of a shots heard....arrive on scene, female is standing there with a small amount of blood trickling down her forehead and a guy laying next to his truck with a gunshot wound to the head and the weapon lying next to him.....after the investigation it turns out he shoots his girlfriend in the head, then turns the gun on himself...only she doesnt die, bullet hits her in the head and rides her scalp, right out the back of her head....some minor blood loss and thats it. Murder/suicide=FAIL Theres a very small portion on the human body that will cause reliable instant incapacitation and thats the small triangle starting at the top of the nose to the lower mouth or from the back, to the lower portion of the brain stem....a solid shot to the brain stem will cause reliable incapacitation....There is no magic bullet, shot placement is key and bad guys, unlike paper targets move...ALOT. Watch most shootings and you will find untrained shooters tend to dance around, spraying bullets wildly....Cover is key, sure you may be able to shoot bad guy before he shoots you, but unlike in the movies, hes not gonna die instantly and he will return fire. Even if he is on borrowed time and only minutes from death, do you wanna get hit by a dead man walking's bullets? |
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Not really. The perp in the linked presentation WAS shot in the pelvis-his hip was shattered. Not the hip joint, the hip BONE. VERY painful, but he wasn't standing or running, so it wasn't a stopper for him.
What about shots to the pelvic region to (attempt to) cause the skeletal system to fail. If you shatter the pevis, you loose all skeletal integrity. |
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What about shots to the pelvic region to (attempt to) cause the skeletal system to fail. If you shatter the pevis, you loose all skeletal integrity. If you look at the radiograph you can see that the fracture is to the ala (upper section of the hip bone) that didn't affect a fracture to make the pelvis compromised enough to totally impede his mobility. If you look at the inside ring of the pelvis (the pelvic brim) you can see that it is intact so there is still a continuous area of support through the pelvic bone. Even with the damaged right ala, structural integrity hasn't been compromised enough to guarantee his immobility. He might be able to, possibly kinda painfully, move upright on just his two feet. Both acetabulums and both femurs are intact. The compromised skeletal integrity of which you speak and seek, I believe, is generally concerned with a femoral fracture, especially with the neck of the femoral bone that compromises the hip, or a fractured acetabulum or the head of the femur that meets the pelvis to form the hip. Fracture those and skeletal integrity is compromised to where he won't be making an escape in an upright position outa sheer will power. Unqualified opinion of course. I ain't no Dr but I sure seen lots of pictures of shot people. 
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