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Posted: 5/25/2026 12:33:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 556Cliff][Edited]
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I was out again yesterday shooting my M16A2 “clone” at water filled milk jugs placed out at 300, 400 and 500 meters and I was once again surprised at how easily I managed to hit them all. And I was shooting supported only at the front while standing (no support other than me on the backside). And it was pretty windy yesterday too… Also, I was shooting M855. That just makes me wonder what others experiences are with A2 irons out at that range? |
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Originally Posted By 13gunbunny: Should be "minute of man" out to 600 or so.. Milk jug being slightly smaller than a torso I'm not surprised you can get good hits out to 5 Yes, easily. Any of the missed shots I had easily would have fit into a torso sized target. I think it’s just surprising to me because I rarely shoot beyond 100 meters and shooting out to 500 isn’t any more difficult. If anyone here hasn’t tried it they have to get out there and do it, it’s really a lot of fun. |
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Originally Posted By GlockPride: Terrible. I have a hard time seeing a target at 250-300 yards, so 500 would be a distance I could not hit without optics. I figure that there are many like me, but most afraid to admit it on the innerwebz. I will have to admit that I do shoot with my prescription glasses (even when using magnification).  20 years ago things were different.Getting out beyond 200/300 is where the fun starts though… Raising the elevation wheel and getting hits out to the range it was calibrated for is really something. |
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Originally Posted By MK19: I run irons on a rig I have as a basic build but sadly I can't go beyond 250Y. It's amazingly accurate tho, so I have no doubt it would do well at 500Y I’m really lucky that I can get out to 500M in the back field. I’d love to shoot to the full range of the dial one day. |
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Originally Posted By GlockPride: Terrible. I have a hard time seeing a target at 250-300 yards, so 500 would be a distance I could not hit without optics. I figure that there are many like me, but most afraid to admit it on the innerwebz. Yeah, my eyesight is shit anymore. 300 is about my limit with rifle irons. |
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Originally Posted By GlockPride: Terrible. I have a hard time seeing a target at 250-300 yards, so 500 would be a distance I could not hit without optics. I figure that there are many like me, but most afraid to admit it on the innerwebz. But this is meters |
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USMC Distinguished Pistol Shot 1997
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"HAVING GUNS AND AMMO IS A BIT LIKE HAVING TANGIBLE STOCKS" Me
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In Highpower, the 600 yard 10 ring is 12". The X ring is six. At that distance it really comes down to a vision contest. I bracket at the entire target frame with a slightly wider front sight. Lots of people can clean that stage. Not me though. Came pretty close a couple times. The only stage I've ever cleaned is sitting rapids. |
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Originally Posted By GlockPride: Terrible. I have a hard time seeing a target at 250-300 yards, so 500 would be a distance I could not hit without optics. I figure that there are many like me, but most afraid to admit it on the innerwebz. I am living proof you do not have to be able to see the target to shoot well. Make sure the front sight is in sharp focus its just 20 inches away. The problem we older folks have is that we cannot flex back and forth from the target to the post and tend to look at the target because we can focus on it but doing so will cause a low shot. A2 accuracy? The commanding general at Ft Benning told the Army Marksmanship Unit commander that they were no longer allowed to use the M14 in national match competition and to 'make the M16 shoot' and win, the offspring of that order is the A2. Stoner remarked in a later interview that he thought the rear sight was too complex, too much like a match rifle, I personally love it. The A2 is the only weapon system ever investigated for being too lethal. In Iraq a spike in headshots was being reported and fears of executions of prisoners was investigated by the IG but it turned out a joint outpost was making the headshots at 525m. Their privately ordered ammo was Blackhills red box w/Sierra 77s (match ammo) which became mk262. It is the ultimate analog battle rifle and as a competition rifle with a floated barrel and precision sight is as good as any and was regularly shot at 1000yrd matches and dominated in its day. I shot it fifteen years in competition, I got my distinguished badge at 50 with irons, love my A2s (emphasis added). |
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Originally Posted By GSPatton: In Highpower, the 600 yard 10 ring is 12". The X ring is six. At that distance it really comes down to a vision contest. I bracket at the entire target frame with a slightly wider front sight. Lots of people can clean that stage. Not me though. Came pretty close a couple times. The only stage I've ever cleaned is sitting rapids. I didn’t know they had wider front sight posts, but I never looked for wider ones. Seems like everyone was always looking to get even thinner front sight posts for longer range shooting. |
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Originally Posted By Carbinekid: A2 accuracy? The commanding general at Ft Benning told the Army Marksmanship Unit commander that they were no longer allowed to use the M14 in national match competition and to 'make the M16 shoot' and win, the offspring of that order is the A2. Stoner remarked in a later interview that he thought the rear sight was too complex, too much like a match rifle, I personally love it. The A2 is the only weapon system ever investigated for being too lethal. In Iraq a spike in headshots was being reported and fears of executions of prisoners was investigated by the IG but it turned out a joint outpost was making the headshots at 525m. Their privately ordered ammo was Blackhills red box w/Sierra 77s (match ammo) which became mk262. It is the ultimate analog battle rifle and as a competition rifle with a floated barrel and precision sight is as good as any and was regularly shot at 1000yrd matches and dominated in its day. I shot it fifteen years in competition, I got my distinguished badge at 50 with irons, love my A2s (emphasis added). 0.070" post and aperture, 7.5lb overall weight, 5+lb single stage trigger. Shoot for record. |
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I watched that one a while back, was pretty awesome... I do think he probably would've done even better if their range was in meters instead of yards and if he was using M855 instead of M193. |
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I haven't shot out to 500 in over 20 years. Its hard to find up here. I recently found a 300 yard clear-cut ive been shooting at this year. Maybe next time ill bring my A2  Shooting drills at 300 yards on an 8x12 steel target |
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Originally Posted By 556Cliff: I watched that one a while back, was pretty awesome... I do think he probably would've done even better if their range was in meters instead of yards and if he was using M855 instead of M193. |
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Originally Posted By mcantu: It's one of those "a difference that makes no difference is no difference" things. If you zero w/yards for a range in yards, you'll be fine. The USMC ranges are in yards and their A2/A4 irons worked just fine there Originally Posted By mcantu: Originally Posted By 556Cliff: I watched that one a while back, was pretty awesome... I do think he probably would've done even better if their range was in meters instead of yards and if he was using M855 instead of M193. I suppose that's true enough. And I have no idea how he zeroed the rifle he was using, but it did work out pretty good on that range. My thought (as it is with the BDCs on ACOGs) is that it's best to stick with what the sights were designed around to get the most precise results. In the case of the A2 sights, that would be M855 out of a 20" barrel with the sights zeroed at 25 meters. Though I didn't even follow that perfectly as I set mine up for the 50 yard zero and the range scale still worked out to 400M and 500M like I was shooting a laser. 
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| My eyes aren't what they were when I was a young man. At 19 I had no problem shooting Expert with a ratty M16A1 out to 300 meters. Ten years ago I was still able to see pretty well but optics definitely help with the handicap of aging eyes. In 2017 I went to a shooting event at Fort Gordon and was shooting a 12 to 18 inch group at one mile with a Barrett .50 BMG, using glass of course. In 2022 I put three rounds into a group measuring 1.2 inches at 600 yards with my FN SPR sniper rifle at the CMP range. So I can still shoot well, but I have a hard time seeing past 200 yards with the old MKI eyeball. I think it was around 2017 that I attended a class and had to shoot out to 300 meters with iron sights on an AR. I managed to hit a pepper popper at 300 meters with my first shot but could barely make out what looked like a fuzzy q-tip. I mostly shoot at 100 yards and can still hit a paper plate size target with a pistol with reasonable frequency. Double that distance and you're probably safe, unless I have a scope. |
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Originally Posted By 556Cliff: I suppose that's true enough. And I have no idea how he zeroed the rifle he was using, but it did work out pretty good on that range. My thought (as it is with the BDCs on ACOGs) is that it's best to stick with what the sights were designed around to get the most precise results. In the case of the A2 sights, that would be M855 out of a 20" barrel with the sights zeroed at 25 meters. Though I didn't even follow that perfectly as I set mine up for the 50 yard zero and the range scale still worked out to 400M and 500M like I was shooting a laser. Originally Posted By 556Cliff: Originally Posted By mcantu: Originally Posted By 556Cliff: I watched that one a while back, was pretty awesome... I do think he probably would've done even better if their range was in meters instead of yards and if he was using M855 instead of M193. I suppose that's true enough. And I have no idea how he zeroed the rifle he was using, but it did work out pretty good on that range. My thought (as it is with the BDCs on ACOGs) is that it's best to stick with what the sights were designed around to get the most precise results. In the case of the A2 sights, that would be M855 out of a 20" barrel with the sights zeroed at 25 meters. Though I didn't even follow that perfectly as I set mine up for the 50 yard zero and the range scale still worked out to 400M and 500M like I was shooting a laser. Sir: Great shooting! As others have mentioned US (CMP) Service Rifle matches are shot out to 600yds, and until 2015? were shot with iron sighted 20" rifles. The rifles were accurized though. After that, just so you know, as others have mentioned if you want to shoot in meters go ahead, if you shoot in yards, go ahead. But pick one is the key, though FYI, you seem the only one that shoots in meters. The sights adjust the same. Also, if your sight (distance) markings actually "lined up" - either the irons or ACOG- it's a stroke of luck. Your elevation, air pressure, current temp, ammo etc etc all make that a crap shoot. I know this from experience. Where I shoot usually is around 5000ft elevation, which means around 300yds (sorry meters) + the markings are off and at 600yds not even close. |
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Originally Posted By GSPatton: In Highpower, the 600 yard 10 ring is 12". The X ring is six. At that distance it really comes down to a vision contest. I bracket at the entire target frame with a slightly wider front sight. Lots of people can clean that stage. Not me though. Came pretty close a couple times. The only stage I've ever cleaned is sitting rapids. I'm not sure I would say lots of people can clean it with irons. There certainly have been a lot of 200s fired at 600 yards, but I tend to think it was a rather exclusive group of shooters that have done it with an iron sighted service rifle. |
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Originally Posted By TGH456E: Sir: Great shooting! As others have mentioned US (CMP) Service Rifle matches are shot out to 600yds, and until 2015? were shot with iron sighted 20" rifles. The rifles were accurized though. After that, just so you know, as others have mentioned if you want to shoot in meters go ahead, if you shoot in yards, go ahead. But pick one is the key, though FYI, you seem the only one that shoots in meters. The sights adjust the same. Also, if your sight (distance) markings actually "lined up" - either the irons or ACOG- it's a stroke of luck. Your elevation, air pressure, current temp, ammo etc etc all make that a crap shoot. I know this from experience. Where I shoot usually is around 5000ft elevation, which means around 300yds (sorry meters) + the markings are off and at 600yds not even close. Originally Posted By TGH456E: Originally Posted By 556Cliff: Originally Posted By mcantu: Originally Posted By 556Cliff: I watched that one a while back, was pretty awesome... I do think he probably would've done even better if their range was in meters instead of yards and if he was using M855 instead of M193. I suppose that's true enough. And I have no idea how he zeroed the rifle he was using, but it did work out pretty good on that range. My thought (as it is with the BDCs on ACOGs) is that it's best to stick with what the sights were designed around to get the most precise results. In the case of the A2 sights, that would be M855 out of a 20" barrel with the sights zeroed at 25 meters. Though I didn't even follow that perfectly as I set mine up for the 50 yard zero and the range scale still worked out to 400M and 500M like I was shooting a laser. Sir: Great shooting! As others have mentioned US (CMP) Service Rifle matches are shot out to 600yds, and until 2015? were shot with iron sighted 20" rifles. The rifles were accurized though. After that, just so you know, as others have mentioned if you want to shoot in meters go ahead, if you shoot in yards, go ahead. But pick one is the key, though FYI, you seem the only one that shoots in meters. The sights adjust the same. Also, if your sight (distance) markings actually "lined up" - either the irons or ACOG- it's a stroke of luck. Your elevation, air pressure, current temp, ammo etc etc all make that a crap shoot. I know this from experience. Where I shoot usually is around 5000ft elevation, which means around 300yds (sorry meters) + the markings are off and at 600yds not even close. Oddly, I seemed to have a harder time hitting the jugs at 300M than at 400M/500M, though I did eventually hit them and all the misses were very close... So that's interesting. I can't go to 600M where I'm at (unless I did a lot of mowing in an area I really don't want to mow ), so I can't say how my luck would be at that range.
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Originally Posted By bdgfate: Any chance you're closer to Moscow/Pullman? I'm in Moscow and looking for some distance. Originally Posted By bdgfate: Originally Posted By 556Cliff: Eastern WA… So close to Idaho that it hurts. Lots of farm fields around the area. Any chance you're closer to Moscow/Pullman? I'm in Moscow and looking for some distance. Nope, way north of that. |
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Your target matters. NRA/CMP tournaments are held at 600 yards for the slow fire stage. The black bullseye is 36" in diameter, which is roughly the same width as your front sight which helps immensely for alignment purposes. The black bullseye on a buff (off white) paper background is easy to see. The X-ring on the 600-yard target is roughly 6" in diameter, or 1 MOA. The ten ring is roughly 12" in diameter, or 2 MOA. Up until around ten years ago all matches were iron sights only. Great shooters could hold the ten-ring with good x-count. They were not shooting ball ammo, ever. Custom handloads using Sierra 80 grain Match King's seated around 2.500" +/- was that standard load. Every round was loaded one at a time. They couldn't be fired from a magazine because they were too long, even if the rules were changed to allow it. People are pretty much obsessed and impressed with long range accuracy. The truth is tournaments create conditions that never occur in the real world. It's almost impossible to see a target that isn't exposing itself at 600 yards (549 meters). Using ball ammo at distance makes it a matter of luck if you happen to hit what you are aiming at. If you want a chance at hitting targets at range, and still have the ammo fit and feed from a magazine, 77 grain match bullets or something similar is the way to go. M193/M855 has been a disappointment for me as far as accuracy is concerned. |
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I remember in the first Gulf War reading reports of Marines successfully engaging targets out to 800 yards(?) since the A2 was all they had on hand. is everyone dialing the rear sight? Is it proper to call the rear sight a BDC? How accurate is the BDC with the 62 grain bullet? |
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Originally Posted By TennesseeRat: I remember in the first Gulf War reading reports of Marines successfully engaging targets out to 800 yards(?) since the A2 was all they had on hand. is everyone dialing the rear sight? Is it proper to call the rear sight a BDC? How accurate is the BDC with the 62 grain bullet? The rear sight is calibrated for 62 grain M855, the problem is M855 sucks on target. 3 moa is typical, sometimes worse. The elevation can be dialed up to 800 meters if memory serves me right, 600 meters on a M4. If you don't dial the rear sight, your chances are even worse. Misjudging distance also effects wind compensation. Most misses at extended range are because the shooter got the range wrong, which hurt their wind dope too. An accurate assessment of the range and a good wind call is a requirement. 3 moa ammo at 500 meters results in 15" groups not counting wind deflection, shooter error, poor sight picture of the target, field expedient shooting positions, less than ideal light and a half-dozen other factors that complicate the process. |
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Originally Posted By GlockPride:
Terrible. I have a hard time seeing a target at 250-300 yards, so 500 would be a distance I could not hit without optics. I figure that there are many like me, but most afraid to admit it on the innerwebz. For instance, this was when I was shooting my PSA SBR at 100 yards unsupported standing. That 3/4 scale IDPA target ain't very big. 
I hit it almost every time, so I think I would easily fail your test. Believe it or not, the three holes just below the steel were already in the wood when I set it up - I try to get the most I can out of my wood! 
So, while I don't have a range that stretches out to 500 yards, I am willing to bet I probably wouldn't be able to do much but scare them. Maybe. Edit to add, I am an ex-squid who only qualified with the M14. |
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This is my accuracy: Attached File 
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Originally Posted By bradpierson26:
So I know you're a SF whore . . . . .
So I know you're a SF whore . . . . .
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Originally Posted By TheTacticalCoyote: This is my accuracy: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/202402/2177700_600x600_crop_center_webp-3774782.JPG Ditto. 4/4 times 
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Originally Posted By TennesseeRat: I remember in the first Gulf War reading reports of Marines successfully engaging targets out to 800 yards(?) since the A2 was all they had on hand. is everyone dialing the rear sight? Is it proper to call the rear sight a BDC? How accurate is the BDC with the 62 grain bullet? There's always "stories" from any source and time. So this one, was it one lone Marine getting lucky after a few shots or a team volley firing, etc. |
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Originally Posted By TheTacticalCoyote:
This is my accuracy: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/202402/2177700_600x600_crop_center_webp-3774782.JPG I will never be an expert at anything except pain in the butt. |
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Originally Posted By GlockPride: Terrible. I have a hard time seeing a target at 250-300 yards, so 500 would be a distance I could not hit without optics. I figure that there are many like me, but most afraid to admit it on the innerwebz. Same. Im in my 50s and I dont want to shoot without magnification beyond 100yds. |
 This is at 300 yard with irons and a sling. 10 rounds with a mag change shooting at the CMP range in Talladega, AL at the inaugural match’s at the range. It’s 77smk from a company that was sponsoring me at the time. I’ve cleaned 200 several time though. I haven’t cleaned 600 yet but life has gotten in the way. That’s my next goal. Daniel |
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Slung up prone with my younger eyes ……500 yards on a Baker target was usually all fives, maybe 4 once in a while. X (5V) count was probably 50% or better. That was with an issue rack grade A2 rifle. 5 ring was 20”, the 5V ring was 10”. That yard line was my gravy yard line on points. Now with a cataract in my dominant eye, I’m not sure. Likely be using a god damned blind man’s frame hold at 500. I’m pretty sure I’m muddling my target memories. Mixing the x and v from DCM with my ancient recall of the USMC quals. |
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