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Thanks, that left photo took some luck. More inspiration, check out this AK feature on an ancient Remington: Attached File I mean the selector is also the dust cover... |
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Originally Posted By gNeal: Is there a story behind the A2 port door? The IMT video and Vicker's Guide mostly talk about the physical differences between it and the earlier A1 port door, but I was curious whether it was a Colt or USMC design, if you knew the designer, how it came up as an item that needed improvement, etc. I was also wondering why the interior detent latch housing became rounded, though that might be a stupid question - the AR-15 platform is all very new to me! And to echo what others have said, thank you for sharing all of this. The drawings for the ejection port cover latch housing, the bump on the inside of the cove that interacts with the bolt carrier, is still "officially" square with beveled corners. The round design is still listed as an alternate design |
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The latch housing was redesigned with an exterior "boss" to cam it out of the way if the door was open and the upper was closing down prior to pushing in the rear takedown pin at final assembly.Attached File You can see her how the back-side of the latch housing was enlarged to accommodate the increase material on the outside for the caming boss. |
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Originally Posted By coldblue: The latch housing was redesigned with an exterior "boss" to cam it out of the way if the door was open and the upper was closing down prior to pushing in the rear takedown pin at final assembly.https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/19411/ejection_doors_JPG-3407851.JPG You can see her how the back-side of the latch housing was enlarged to accommodate the increase material on the outside for the caming boss. Did your team come up with that or was that a proposal from Colt? |
I sell firearms produced by the finest child labor in the world, be it Filipino, Muslim, Mormon, Arizonan, or Texan.
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How the heck did I miss this thread? thanks for the history Colonel! I absolutely love that the “trivia” of history is preserved. I don’t know how many times I looked at old military gear with a question on its development or field use and sadly think that anyone who knew the answer didn’t get it down on paper or that it was lost to time. Fascinating stuff! ETA I don’t even notice the grip. I went through boot in 87 at PI and I don’t think the A2s were there long at all. I want to say I heard that our series was only the third one at PI to get them. I did not take it as gospel though. I got in the guard later and retrograded from M16A2, M60E3 and M9s to M1911s, A1s, and M60s. Granted some of the A1s were upgraded with A2 hand guards or even A2 uppers on A1 lowers. That wasn’t a bad setup in retrospect. They all were equally handy. (well except for any with a m203).  I got a brand new DoD loaner M16a1 as a police officer fresh out of the factory cardboard box. 1971 M16A1 with E type stock iirc, the trapdoor stocked model. We got those around 2009. So 38 years since factory test firing to its first use. The set it and forget it sights were perfectly fine for police use. Really cannot justify long range shots anyhow so a battlesight setting is more than adequate. Prefer A1 length and have swapped one on to my RRA DCM rifle. I am fine with an A2 right up until I put a Creedmoor coat on. Then it just cannot work for me. Would love the CS zytel stocks to be made. |
The only hyphenated names I like are cartridge names......30-06, 30-40, 38-55 etc.
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Originally Posted By backbencher: Did your team come up with that or was that a proposal from Colt? It was one of the improvements we came up with based on discussions with Users. Colt took the issue, designed the solution, and we approved it after we saw it worked. Colt was never proactive coming up with in-house improvements, they were just into pumping out the same old, same old...In that way, they were their own worst enemy. |
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Originally Posted By coldblue: It was one of the improvements we came up with based on discussions with Users. Colt took the issue, designed the solution, and we approved it after we saw it worked. Colt was never proactive coming up with in-house improvements, they were just into pumping out the same old, same old...In that way, they were their own worst enemy. Originally Posted By coldblue: Originally Posted By backbencher: Did your team come up with that or was that a proposal from Colt? It was one of the improvements we came up with based on discussions with Users. Colt took the issue, designed the solution, and we approved it after we saw it worked. Colt was never proactive coming up with in-house improvements, they were just into pumping out the same old, same old...In that way, they were their own worst enemy. Well, they've gone bankrupt how many times? |
I sell firearms produced by the finest child labor in the world, be it Filipino, Muslim, Mormon, Arizonan, or Texan.
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Originally Posted By coldblue: It was one of the improvements we came up with based on discussions with Users. Colt took the issue, designed the solution, and we approved it after we saw it worked. Colt was never proactive coming up with in-house improvements, they were just into pumping out the same old, same old...In that way, they were their own worst enemy. Originally Posted By coldblue: Originally Posted By backbencher: Did your team come up with that or was that a proposal from Colt? It was one of the improvements we came up with based on discussions with Users. Colt took the issue, designed the solution, and we approved it after we saw it worked. Colt was never proactive coming up with in-house improvements, they were just into pumping out the same old, same old...In that way, they were their own worst enemy. There were updates/upgrades/improvements that were offered and refused (like hammer forged barrels, which both Colt and FN offered), so it's not terribly surprising they mostly stuck with same old. Most of the M4 changes were just stuff to get patent protection on. |
This is...a clue - Pat_Rogers
I'm not adequately aluminumized for this thread. - gonzo_beyondo
CO, MI, OR - Please lobby your legislators to end discrimination against non-resident CCW permit holders
I'm not adequately aluminumized for this thread. - gonzo_beyondo
CO, MI, OR - Please lobby your legislators to end discrimination against non-resident CCW permit holders
| Good move Jhud! That ease of modification was always part of the plan. I mean GI's have always (and continue) to find ways to modify their equipment for specific needs. Like during the Korean War, 1911 Pistol trigger guards were hacksawed off for use with thick cold weather mittens... |
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| The A2 grip was slightly larger, with a more pronounced contour and a steeper angle to accommodate for both aiming and recoil control. It was, in theory, designed to be more comfortable for soldiers who would be using their rifles for longer periods. The A2 grip also featured a more pronounced finger groove and a wider base compared to the A1, intending to improve overall control, especially in the prone position or during longer engagements. The idea was that the larger, more ergonomic shape would help soldiers handle the rifle more comfortably during operations, especially when wearing gloves, which was a major consideration in the military context. However, as you've noted, the A2's design doesn’t seem to work as well for many civilian shooters, and this is where modern grips like the MIAD or MOE shine. The A2 grip has a noticeable ridge that can feel uncomfortable for shooters, especially where the middle finger wraps around, which is why grips like the A1 or MOE have gained popularity. The A1 grip is more rounded and lacks that aggressive finger groove, making it more adaptable to a wide variety of hand sizes. It’s also much thinner and easier to control for those who prefer a more “minimalist” feel without compromising too much on comfort. One of the most critical factors in grips like the MIAD and MOE gaining popularity is their flexibility in customization. You can change backstraps and front straps to suit your specific needs, whether it’s a wider grip or one with a different angle, which makes them significantly more adjustable than the A2. These grips take into account a greater variety of hand sizes and shooting styles. |
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Originally Posted By mark_salvano: The A2 grip was slightly larger, with a more pronounced contour and a steeper angle to accommodate for both aiming and recoil control. It was, in theory, designed to be more comfortable for soldiers who would be using their rifles for longer periods. The A2 grip also featured a more pronounced finger groove and a wider base compared to the A1, intending to improve overall control, especially in the prone position or during longer engagements. The idea was that the larger, more ergonomic shape would help soldiers handle the rifle more comfortably during operations, especially when wearing gloves, which was a major consideration in the military context. However, as you've noted, the A2's design doesn’t seem to work as well for many civilian shooters, and this is where modern grips like the MIAD or MOE shine. The A2 grip has a noticeable ridge that can feel uncomfortable for shooters, especially where the middle finger wraps around, which is why grips like the A1 or MOE have gained popularity. The A1 grip is more rounded and lacks that aggressive finger groove, making it more adaptable to a wide variety of hand sizes. It’s also much thinner and easier to control for those who prefer a more “minimalist” feel without compromising too much on comfort. One of the most critical factors in grips like the MIAD and MOE gaining popularity is their flexibility in customization. You can change backstraps and front straps to suit your specific needs, whether it’s a wider grip or one with a different angle, which makes them significantly more adjustable than the A2. These grips take into account a greater variety of hand sizes and shooting styles. Welcome to ARFCOM. Do you understand who you just posted after? |
I sell firearms produced by the finest child labor in the world, be it Filipino, Muslim, Mormon, Arizonan, or Texan.
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Attached File Attached File |
I sell firearms produced by the finest child labor in the world, be it Filipino, Muslim, Mormon, Arizonan, or Texan.
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Col. Lutz, Thank you for the extensive time invested in this thread. Fascinating read and well worth the sticky. I grew up at MCB Lejeune, had no idea that a group of Marines there ended up having a say on a prototyped grip that would end up as a defining part of the M16 / M4 program. Cheers. |
"Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing" - John Stuart Mill
| Yes, that Squad from Camp Lejeune was tough and perhaps the most important element in all the testing we did! For example, during testing on the resistance to barrel bending during bayonet training, although they failed at bending any barrels, they bent and/or destroyed a number of bayonets when thrusting and slashing against telephone poles. |
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Does anyone have info on the thickness of the original A2 grip? As far as I understand Prudent American Technologies is the OEM supplier of the A2 grips to FN and Colt. So far what I understand the grips have a number 1,2,3 to explain generations and a F on the front to indicate “fat” grip as opposed to the thin grip. Not to be confused with an F and a circle for FN grips. Is that the correct assumption to make? Also knowing who Prudent supplies to would be helpful. So far I believe they supply to CMMG and Luth-Ar but I’m not sure. |
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Originally Posted By GSL: I'm all for enhancing your issued weapon, so long as you don't go full retard and return it to as issued when it's time to return it to the Arms Room. The retards up higher have heart attacks if their BN's or BDE's has an M4 or an A4 out of uniform while being inspected during a CIP periodically. Originally Posted By GSL: Originally Posted By 556NAT0: Originally Posted By GSL: As a user who went too Basic with an A1, entered active with an A2, A4, then the M4, I'm still failing to see the problem. In 21 years, no one has ever complained about the grip. Now I've been in many units, two MOS's, and had even been sent to talk with DA civy's who asked what we wanted changed and out of a theatre packed, not one cried about the grip. It was always the compensator, the stock on the M4 having a shitty cheek weld, and the magazine. Now with all that being said, I have four AR's and only one of them has the A2 grip, because I like a variety of what works and ditch what suck's ass. That surprises me. IMO the pistol grip is the worst. The A2 fh is extremely outdated, but I could live with it. And the stock, it again something I could live with. But my hands and fingers actually get a little sore shooting with the stock grips. If was told I had to go back to a standard stock, A2 flash hider and an a2 grip but I could change one later on the grip would definitely be there first thing changed. Decades ago, I worked in a Battalion that decided to 'convert' twenty or so of its M16A2's to M4s without authorization so the O's and upper enlisted wouldnt have to lug that terribly heavy full size rifle around. They were still on the property books as M16A2s. Division about had a heart attack when they inspected my arms room. IMHO, no one ever complained about the A2 grip because we didn't have options. Black boots, black rifles....the cool stuff was just emerging then. |
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Reduced angle M16 A1 grip This one looks pretty interesting, pricey though |
| the a1 to a2 grip swap along with other a2 modifications were an effort to make the military more gay friendly in preparation for the dont ask/ dont tell policy. its goal was to turn away real men from enlisting while throwing out a giant welcoming mat for pauly shore types to join and feel right at home. |
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Personally, I have shot both in the service while on active duty and reserves. Neither one bothered me nor did it really matter to me. Now on my civilian AR I have used the more ergonomic Hogue grips and I like those, but again, it isn't a deal killer for me. I see many A and A2 grips in the parts bin at just about every gun store lol. Do what feels best to you. Life is too short to be irritated by what you don't like. |
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