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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Why the laser hate? (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 3/25/2010 5:56:19 PM EDT
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When i first bought an AR I thought a laser would be a handy tool to have for home defense. Since I live in an apartment I figured a laser would provide quick target acquisition in low light conditions without the need to look through a sight in tight quarters.
After reading this board for awhile I have noticed that a lot of people are anti-laser. What are the reasons to not mount one? |
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When i first bought an AR I thought a laser would be a handy tool to have for home defense. Since I live in an apartment I figured a laser would provide quick target acquisition in low light conditions without the need to look through a sight in tight quarters. After reading this board for awhile I have noticed that a lot of people are anti-laser. What are the reasons to not mount one? it works both ways. like a flashlight. but your home invader will not be worried about accurate target acquisition and just mag dump your general direction. thats just one thing that comes to mind. I am sure others who have discussed this topic before will lay out some more. |
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It seems to me, that with a rifle you would want to have it shouldered to fire...you don't want to fire from the hip, that shit is only done in the movies. Now, if you're rifle is shouldered, why would you NOT want to just look through your red dot or holographic sight? |
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It seems to me, that with a rifle you would want to have it shouldered to fire...you don't want to fire from the hip, that shit is only done in the movies. Now, if you're rifle is shouldered, why would you NOT want to just look through your red dot or holographic sight? I guess what I stated above goes along with this. I do have one on a pistol... but thats a pistol. |
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It seems to me, that with a rifle you would want to have it shouldered to fire...you don't want to fire from the hip, that shit is only done in the movies. Now, if you're rifle is shouldered, why would you NOT want to just look through your red dot or holographic sight? I actually tried that for the first time a few weeks ago and at 50 yards, I didn't hit my IDPA target once with 30 rounds fired..It was all over the berm and not even close.. |
| I like lasers. I use one on my 9mm AR pistol. I think the problem alot of guys here have with them is that alot of newb AR owners get or want a laser before they ever really learn to use their guns without them. It also doesn't help that the majority of lasers are cheap pieces of shit and a waste of money. A quality laser with a well trained shooter can have some benefits. |
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It seems to me, that with a rifle you would want to have it shouldered to fire...you don't want to fire from the hip, that shit is only done in the movies. Now, if you're rifle is shouldered, why would you NOT want to just look through your red dot or holographic sight? I actually tried that for the first time a few weeks ago and at 50 yards, I didn't hit my IDPA target once with 30 rounds fired..It was all over the berm and not even close.. Seems like it would be a bit easier to hit a man sized target at 10-20 yards though. |
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Quoted: Quoted: It seems to me, that with a rifle you would want to have it shouldered to fire...you don't want to fire from the hip, that shit is only done in the movies. Now, if you're rifle is shouldered, why would you NOT want to just look through your red dot or holographic sight? I guess what I stated above goes along with this. I do have one on a pistol... but thats a pistol. Right, you can still hold a pistol properly even if it's not at eye level. I don't personally use lasers at all, but I would be much more inclined to use on on a pistol than a rifle. |
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When i first bought an AR I thought a laser would be a handy tool to have for home defense. Since I live in an apartment I figured a laser would provide quick target acquisition in low light conditions without the need to look through a sight in tight quarters. After reading this board for awhile I have noticed that a lot of people are anti-laser. What are the reasons to not mount one? it works both ways. like a flashlight. but your home invader will not be worried about accurate target acquisition and just mag dump your general direction. thats just one thing that comes to mind. I am sure others who have discussed this topic before will lay out some more. That's what has me confused. A flashlight makes you just as much of a target and I don't see many people saying it's a bad idea to use one. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: It seems to me, that with a rifle you would want to have it shouldered to fire...you don't want to fire from the hip, that shit is only done in the movies. Now, if you're rifle is shouldered, why would you NOT want to just look through your red dot or holographic sight? I actually tried that for the first time a few weeks ago and at 50 yards, I didn't hit my IDPA target once with 30 rounds fired..It was all over the berm and not even close.. Seems like it would be a bit easier to hit a man sized target at 10-20 yards though. Easier than with sights???? NO it would not be. 1. You would not be holding the rifle properly, it would be "loose" 2. No stock weld 3. Certainly little trigger control a shouldered rifle with sights for me thanks. |
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Quoted: You don't aim with a flashlight. You use it to identify potential targets- that's why people don't say it's a bad idea....you need to know what you're shooting at. Quoted: Quoted: When i first bought an AR I thought a laser would be a handy tool to have for home defense. Since I live in an apartment I figured a laser would provide quick target acquisition in low light conditions without the need to look through a sight in tight quarters. After reading this board for awhile I have noticed that a lot of people are anti-laser. What are the reasons to not mount one? it works both ways. like a flashlight. but your home invader will not be worried about accurate target acquisition and just mag dump your general direction. thats just one thing that comes to mind. I am sure others who have discussed this topic before will lay out some more. That's what has me confused. A flashlight makes you just as much of a target and I don't see many people saying it's a bad idea to use one. |
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You don't aim with a flashlight. You use it to identify potential targets- that's why people don't say it's a bad idea....you need to know what you're shooting at.
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When i first bought an AR I thought a laser would be a handy tool to have for home defense. Since I live in an apartment I figured a laser would provide quick target acquisition in low light conditions without the need to look through a sight in tight quarters. After reading this board for awhile I have noticed that a lot of people are anti-laser. What are the reasons to not mount one? it works both ways. like a flashlight. but your home invader will not be worried about accurate target acquisition and just mag dump your general direction. thats just one thing that comes to mind. I am sure others who have discussed this topic before will lay out some more. That's what has me confused. A flashlight makes you just as much of a target and I don't see many people saying it's a bad idea to use one. I didn't say you aim with a flashlight. I said using one is going to make you just as much of a target as a laser. If you're already using a flashlight a laser isn't going to make you MORE of a target. |
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It seems to me, that with a rifle you would want to have it shouldered to fire...you don't want to fire from the hip, that shit is only done in the movies. Now, if you're rifle is shouldered, why would you NOT want to just look through your red dot or holographic sight? I actually tried that for the first time a few weeks ago and at 50 yards, I didn't hit my IDPA target once with 30 rounds fired..It was all over the berm and not even close.. Seems like it would be a bit easier to hit a man sized target at 10-20 yards though. Easier than with sights???? NO it would not be. 1. You would not be holding the rifle properly, it would be "loose" 2. No stock weld 3. Certainly little trigger control a shouldered rifle with sights for me thanks. No, easier then at 50 yards. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: It seems to me, that with a rifle you would want to have it shouldered to fire...you don't want to fire from the hip, that shit is only done in the movies. Now, if you're rifle is shouldered, why would you NOT want to just look through your red dot or holographic sight? I actually tried that for the first time a few weeks ago and at 50 yards, I didn't hit my IDPA target once with 30 rounds fired..It was all over the berm and not even close.. Seems like it would be a bit easier to hit a man sized target at 10-20 yards though. Easier than with sights???? NO it would not be. 1. You would not be holding the rifle properly, it would be "loose" 2. No stock weld 3. Certainly little trigger control a shouldered rifle with sights for me thanks. No, easier then at 50 yards. Yeah, and I can shut my eyes and shoot a target easier at 20 yards than at 50, but that doesn't mean I want to do it. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: You don't aim with a flashlight. You use it to identify potential targets- that's why people don't say it's a bad idea....you need to know what you're shooting at. Quoted: Quoted: When i first bought an AR I thought a laser would be a handy tool to have for home defense. Since I live in an apartment I figured a laser would provide quick target acquisition in low light conditions without the need to look through a sight in tight quarters. After reading this board for awhile I have noticed that a lot of people are anti-laser. What are the reasons to not mount one? it works both ways. like a flashlight. but your home invader will not be worried about accurate target acquisition and just mag dump your general direction. thats just one thing that comes to mind. I am sure others who have discussed this topic before will lay out some more. That's what has me confused. A flashlight makes you just as much of a target and I don't see many people saying it's a bad idea to use one. I didn't say you aim with a flashlight. I said using one is going to make you just as much of a target as a laser. If you're already using a flashlight a laser isn't going to make you MORE of a target. I realize that, I'm explaining why the flashlight and a laser are completely different. The risk of giving your position away is worth it for most people because accidentally shooting a family member isn't worth the risk of not having a light. A laser gives what advantage now? Remember, in order to hit anything, you would need to have the rifle shouldered anyways...and right in front of your face is either sights, and Aimpoint or an Eotech... |
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I like watching people with lasers on thier pistols shoot at the range, it brings much entertainment.
It's usually people who don't shoot a lot, target at 10 yards or less, red dot dancing across the paper, random bangs with holes appearing all over the place if they hit the paper at all. 
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You don't aim with a flashlight. You use it to identify potential targets- that's why people don't say it's a bad idea....you need to know what you're shooting at.
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When i first bought an AR I thought a laser would be a handy tool to have for home defense. Since I live in an apartment I figured a laser would provide quick target acquisition in low light conditions without the need to look through a sight in tight quarters. After reading this board for awhile I have noticed that a lot of people are anti-laser. What are the reasons to not mount one? it works both ways. like a flashlight. but your home invader will not be worried about accurate target acquisition and just mag dump your general direction. thats just one thing that comes to mind. I am sure others who have discussed this topic before will lay out some more. That's what has me confused. A flashlight makes you just as much of a target and I don't see many people saying it's a bad idea to use one. I didn't say you aim with a flashlight. I said using one is going to make you just as much of a target as a laser. If you're already using a flashlight a laser isn't going to make you MORE of a target. I realize that, I'm explaining why the flashlight and a laser are completely different. The risk of giving your position away is worth it for most people because accidentally shooting a family member isn't worth the risk of not having a light. A laser gives what advantage now? Remember, in order to hit anything, you would need to have the rifle shouldered anyways...and right in front of your face is either sights, and Aimpoint or an Eotech... Because a laser is a lot cheaper then an Aimpoint or EOTech? What DISADVANTAGES does a laser give now? |
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It seems to me, that with a rifle you would want to have it shouldered to fire...you don't want to fire from the hip, that shit is only done in the movies. Now, if you're rifle is shouldered, why would you NOT want to just look through your red dot or holographic sight? I actually tried that for the first time a few weeks ago and at 50 yards, I didn't hit my IDPA target once with 30 rounds fired..It was all over the berm and not even close.. Seems like it would be a bit easier to hit a man sized target at 10-20 yards though. Easier than with sights???? NO it would not be. 1. You would not be holding the rifle properly, it would be "loose" 2. No stock weld 3. Certainly little trigger control a shouldered rifle with sights for me thanks. No, easier then at 50 yards. Yeah, and I can shut my eyes and shoot a target easier at 20 yards than at 50, but that doesn't mean I want to do it. Yea and I can do a handstand with my eyes closed. What does any of this have to do with the question I asked? |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: You don't aim with a flashlight. You use it to identify potential targets- that's why people don't say it's a bad idea....you need to know what you're shooting at. Quoted: Quoted: When i first bought an AR I thought a laser would be a handy tool to have for home defense. Since I live in an apartment I figured a laser would provide quick target acquisition in low light conditions without the need to look through a sight in tight quarters. After reading this board for awhile I have noticed that a lot of people are anti-laser. What are the reasons to not mount one? it works both ways. like a flashlight. but your home invader will not be worried about accurate target acquisition and just mag dump your general direction. thats just one thing that comes to mind. I am sure others who have discussed this topic before will lay out some more. That's what has me confused. A flashlight makes you just as much of a target and I don't see many people saying it's a bad idea to use one. I didn't say you aim with a flashlight. I said using one is going to make you just as much of a target as a laser. If you're already using a flashlight a laser isn't going to make you MORE of a target. I realize that, I'm explaining why the flashlight and a laser are completely different. The risk of giving your position away is worth it for most people because accidentally shooting a family member isn't worth the risk of not having a light. A laser gives what advantage now? Remember, in order to hit anything, you would need to have the rifle shouldered anyways...and right in front of your face is either sights, and Aimpoint or an Eotech... Because a laser is a lot cheaper then an Aimpoint or EOTech? What DISADVANTAGES does a laser give now? Holy shit. I don't think you're reading anything I'm typing. If cheap is your #1 priority, go for it. You asked why people don't like lasers, I explained my viewpoint. Cheap lasers are shit anyways, good lasers are expensive and only good at short range. Good RDS work at much farther ranges in addition to close range. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Yeah, and I can shut my eyes and shoot a target easier at 20 yards than at 50, but that doesn't mean I want to do it. Yea and I can do a handstand with my eyes closed. What does any of this have to do with the question I asked? Lol, one guy said he couldn't hit shit at 50 yards....you said it would be easier if it were at 20 yards....I said basically, "no shit sherlock, or course it would be easier at 20 yards than at 50 yards, but that still doesn't mean a laser gives you any advantages" |
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I have a green laser, it doesn't live on the AR I use it one, but it does have it's uses. It's just another option that I use once in a while. There are good points along with some bad for using one. I like it on one of my AR's for use as a "home defense" gun. There's also a white light on it but inside in darkness I like it better than the flashlight. The flashlite ruins my night eyes and I can't see after I use it. With the green laser I can momentarily turn it on see what's there and see after it's off again. And it's a sight all at the same time. If a flashlight is just fine with most here...I don't understand the laser hate either. And if the bad guy gets that bright green laser in the eyes he is blind for a while, what's so bad about that? Is a laser for everyone and does one belong on every AR? No. |
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It seems to me, that with a rifle you would want to have it shouldered to fire...you don't want to fire from the hip, that shit is only done in the movies. Now, if you're rifle is shouldered, why would you NOT want to just look through your red dot or holographic sight? I actually tried that for the first time a few weeks ago and at 50 yards, I didn't hit my IDPA target once with 30 rounds fired..It was all over the berm and not even close.. Next time instead of from the hip just point the barrel at the target (extend rifle towards the target w/o using the sights) and walk it in. After a bit of practice the "point and shoot" method can get to be eerily accurate and works just fine on minute of man. It's a good method for when on the move too. |
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when someone sees a laser, they will know you are coming with the gun. might not be the case with the flashlight. it will make the threat think twice because he/she will know you aren't going to miss... Terrible way of thinking. Very true, but that doesn't stop people from believing it. Example The local cops here MANDATE Crimson trace grips on their handguns because they see it as a 'deterrent' 
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Just like everything else, it's a personal preference. Training and proficiency with any piece of equipment makes the difference. We did a LOT of "point and shoot" and so-called "hip" shooting training. Sometimes you simply CANNOT immediately shoulder a weapon, at least in the real world, on "2-way" ranges. With proper training and practice, lasers definitely have their place.
Forget the cheap gun show crap. Nothing but junk to impress you're Tactifool pals. I have OTAL's on several of my Carbines. Rugged, light-weight and reasonably priced. Don't forget the psychological impact of that red dot either. Although I never had the pleasure to paste a dot on a scumbag with a rifle, I have with a pistol/tazer. You'd be surprised how the "compliance factor" immediately rises 
As long as you understand their proper application, limitations, properly train and buy a quality "weapon-grade" product, it can be a valuable tool. |
| I honestly do not see mysefd aiming down the sites when someone is shooting back at me, realistically im going to want to fire at him as quickly as i can. Do you really think with the adrenaline pumping and a threat staring at you, you are going to take the time to line him up in your sights? I think a laser is great, if you know what your doing. Also just because your using a laser doesnt mean you're firing from the hip. |
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Quoted: I honestly do not see mysefd aiming down the sites when someone is shooting back at me, realistically im going to want to fire at him as quickly as i can. Do you really think with the adrenaline pumping and a threat staring at you, you are going to take the time to line him up in your sights? I think a laser is great, if you know what your doing. Also just because your using a laser doesnt mean you're firing from the hip. You missed my point. No, it doesn't mean you're firing from the hip. So if you have your rifle shouldered, why NOT use the sights? And yes, if you train enough and shoot enough, you WILL use the sights or the RDS. How do you think anybody ever gets shot past 3 feet if they don't use the sights? |
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when someone sees a laser, they will know you are coming with the gun. might not be the case with the flashlight. And that is bad...how? I do not want them knowing I am armed until they are looking up the barrel at the loaded chamber. Its the same as the "when they hear the pump shotgun rack one in the chamber" thought. I am not anti laser, it is a tool with a place, but just not on a rifle in home defense IMO. Hunting pigs, I can see the usefulness hitting multiple scurrying targets. I share the opinion above in the thread that it is mostly an offensive tool. |
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What "laser hate?" Personally, I consider lasers nothing but TactiKewl toys for 99.9% of AR owners, but that's their business. If someone wants to put a laser –– or a flame thrower, for that matter –– on their rifle, that's fine with me. They're fellow gun owners, and I sure don't "hate" them or their weapons.
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The "hate" is a lack of understanding that it is just another tool in the tool box. I've used lasers for years, both IR and Visable on Carbines. Here's a pic of my M4 with a CT VFG with laser. Holstered SIG 226 also had CT grips on them.
You don't always have time or position to shoulder a weapon. Have you ever cleared a closet, under a bed, behind a couch? Kind of hard to do it with a shoulderd long gun or looking at the sights on a handgun. Lasers give you that option to extend away from your body and you'll still know where your rounds would be if you had to shoot. I've also used CT grips on M1911s and M9s down range and can highly recommend them. CD |
| My coyote calling partner uses one on his AR. Scoping the fields at 10X at night with a spot light we will spot most dogs 100-250 yards out. Then again, sometimes when you flip on the light after calling you'll suddenly find a dog staring at you from 20 feet away. You wont find it quick enough thru your scope at 10X and dropping the magnification takes critical time that the dog could run. So he just tilts his gun 45 degrees, activates the laser (sighted in at 25 yards) and pop, drop the coyote just like that. I haven't bought one yet, becuase I know the cheap ones are crap and aren't quite ready to drop $250 on a laser. But it certainly gives him the advantage when we call coyotes in close. |
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Before the advent of red dots and two eyes open aiming when all there was to aim with is iron sights I can see the use for short range zeroed lasers. My PEQ2 is zeroed at 100 yds (buts thats IR and a different story) It all comes down to training. If you train to use the laser then its just another tool in the tool box and you will know when to use it. Otherwise its just an acessory. I think that they are great for range training. If we have students that we are working on putting a laser on thier gun will give us an idea of what their problem is. Just watching the laser move will tell us if they are breathing wrong, jerking or pushing the trigger etc etc.
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Quoted: there is no way to use a laser to tactically blind someone. Unless you have 2 lasers 1 for each eye  I don't agree. If you have a good green laser aimed at your face in the darkness you don't see anything for a while but a bright green spot. Far worse than a bright camera flash. I know this because I accidentally used myself as a guinea pig. I saw that spot for hours, eye doc checked me a few days later, lucky for me there was no permanent damage. |
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A lot of what I'm seeing in this thread shows lack of training with lights & lasers.
Get into a low-light course to learn how use the equipment without making yourself a target. or....check out the Lights & Lasers forum for some basic pointers to at least get you started in their proper use. |
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The "hate" is a lack of understanding that it is just another tool in the tool box. I've used lasers for years, both IR and Visable on Carbines. Here's a pic of my M4 with a CT VFG with laser. Holstered SIG 226 also had CT grips on them. http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/P6050008_night_patrol_blacked_out.JPG You don't always have time or position to shoulder a weapon. Have you ever cleared a closet, under a bed, behind a couch? Kind of hard to do it with a shoulderd long gun or looking at the sights on a handgun. Lasers give you that option to extend away from your body and you'll still know where your rounds would be if you had to shoot. I've also used CT grips on M1911s and M9s down range and can highly recommend them. CD Finally someone with a clue. While I would never consider a laser to be a primary aiming source it can potentially provide great benefits nonetheless. Like you said there are many instances in which you must take a shot from an unorthodox position and getting a good cheek weld is out of the question. But for the average civilian who isnt kicking down doors and smokin dude's a laser might not necessarily be beneficial. |
my bad.
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i have a question... how can you realisticly hit someone in the eyes with one? at 50 yds isnt the dot still dime size or smaller? Im sitting here picturing someone at 10 ft in your bedroom, with a red dot bouncing all over their face.... "hold still, DAMNIT!!"....
seriously how or why would you ever even think about doing that at cqb ranges? |
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Quoted: Quoted: The "hate" is a lack of understanding that it is just another tool in the tool box. I've used lasers for years, both IR and Visable on Carbines. Here's a pic of my M4 with a CT VFG with laser. Holstered SIG 226 also had CT grips on them. http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/P6050008_night_patrol_blacked_out.JPG You don't always have time or position to shoulder a weapon. Have you ever cleared a closet, under a bed, behind a couch? Kind of hard to do it with a shoulderd long gun or looking at the sights on a handgun. Lasers give you that option to extend away from your body and you'll still know where your rounds would be if you had to shoot. I've also used CT grips on M1911s and M9s down range and can highly recommend them. CD Finally someone with a clue. While I would never consider a laser to be a primary aiming source it can potentially provide great benefits nonetheless. Like you said there are many instances in which you must take a shot from an unorthodox position and getting a good cheek weld is out of the question. But for the average civilian who isnt kicking down doors and smokin dude's a laser might not necessarily be beneficial. Combat Diver has some great points, and I wouldn't argue with them at all...my point of view was that of a civilian application of lasers. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Why the laser hate? (Page 1 of 2)
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