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Posted: 5/10/2008 9:13:08 AM EDT
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I think I read on this site, that some very early XM16E1s used the duckbill flash hider, and possibly the triangular charging handle, but I can't relocate the information. Could one of you knowedgable AR affectionados let me know if this is true or not. I'm starting a XM16E1 build, and was hoping to do a 601 next, then A NDS-32 after that, but thanks to the outstanding condition of the current American economy (that's EXTREME sarcasm) I think I'll only be building the XM16E1 as I'm already committed to that, so I was hoping to add a duckbill, and triangular charging handle to backdate my build to the earliest version of the E1 possible, to compensate for not being able to do a 601 build. I know I can do it, what I'm asking is, would this combination of parts be correct on an early E1 version? This site is cool, and has got me hooked on early ARs, and I'm a dyed in the wool M14 kind of guy! So that should tell you something. I've had several SP1s over the years since 1974, then around 78-79 after getting out of the Marines, I started building my own, both M16A1, and XM177E2 types (you know, back in the good 'ole days!) then selling & trading them. The "Assault" rifle ban took me by surprise as I had no ARs when that went into effect....DOH! Of course ARs doubled, then tripled, in price after that. About a year after the ban went into effect, I found a M16A1 clone on a PWA lower at a gunshow for $550! Now I knew it probably had "issues", but having built several in the past I wasn't scared. (I ain't smart enough to be scared). I had to fix a few things, but once I got it working. It's been flawless in accuracy and reliability. I've kept this one all these years because I knew I could never afford to replace it, and it was an exact clone of the M16A1 I carried in the Marines. Little did I know I was a "retro" guy before it was cool :-) Then last Christmas my son bought me the Tour of Duty boxed set, and I was pretty much hooked on retros after that. I wanted another XM177E2 clone, and had been looking for years on my own, before my son hipped me to this site, but to no avail. Then one day last year while "innocently" cruising Gun Brokers.......BINGO there was my XM177E2, so now I got tht bad boy, and am very happy with it. But I still wanted an earlier type AR/M16 clone, I thought I was going to get one of everything, but financial concerns have changed that plan, and that's why I'm asking about about the early 601 type parts on my XM16E1 build, as it's going to have to bridge the gap, between the 601 I wanted to build, and the E1 I'm currently building. Thanks in advance for your help. Semper Fi Tom Kelly Buckeye, AZ |
Anything is possible with Colt, so there may have been some that got "leftover" parts, but probably not very many if so. |
| Anything is possible with the early stuff. I'm in the process of creating my vision of a hypothetical XM177E1/607. It will have a partial fence lower, triangular carbine handguards, slickside upper with early charging handle, type 2 collapsing stock and duckbill flashhider on a 10" barrell. |
As far as left over 601/602 parts go, I would restrict that to lower parts, such as dimpled takedown pins and selectors from what I've seen. I've seen pics of early XMs with these parts, but never one with a triangular CH, although if you could prove that they did exist, it would give me an excuse to buy an NDS-34 CH!  I highly doubt that the XM16E1 ever used the 'duckbill' FH, since that was an early change and one that the XM16E1 represented IIRC. People who know more than I do (not hard) about this are welcome to chime in. I plan on using a dimpled rear takedown pin on my XM16 build if it matters, but I can't justify the triangular CH or the duckbill. The retro arena has become much more discriminating lately, and for good reason - the bar has just been raised after much research by many interested members. I am constantly amazed at the quality of work I see here. Like any historians, we want to get it right - which I understand is your motivation as well. I planned on building a basic A1 clone - which when I started the project, many people were doing on A2 lowers. The early pics of XM177 clones were not even in the ballpark of what you see now either. It's terrible really, because after buying an early 1966 or earlier XM16E1 upper almost by accident, I consider myself restricted to what I can use on it. I want it to look 'right', but even more than that, I want to KNOW it's right. I will most likely draw the line at an edgewater buffer, but the likelyhood was that my rifle was produced with a regular buffer anyway. Anyway, I've been collecting the right parts for this build for awhile, and I'm really close to having everything, but original grey parts are getting tough to find. Good luck with the build, and welcome to the addiction. |
Umm...Morg...I Think you mean www.retroblackrifle.com...  The 601 is credited there with the duckbill + triangular CH...but the tri-CH's have been found on M16's still in use today (pic here in a thread not too long ago), and there's probably duckbills on rifles *somewhere*... And of course, Air Force M16's use anything that was ever made, in any combination...and let's not even talk about IDF rifles... 
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I KNEW I shouldn't have posted after having a  I didn't know there were still triangular Chs out there, and I know 'anything is possible', but he was asking what would be right for an XM16E1, and both the improved three prong and the charging handle style we all use today were improvements which that model had. Are you telling me that Colt may have shipped early XM16s with duckbills, and/or triangular CH? I just don't quite believe that, although I know Colt is famous for stuff like that, like calling existing stock A1 lowers A2 lowers and so on. I can see anything being built as an IDF or AF 'mongrel' but not as a standard, Army 603. Man my head hurts...  |
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Hey Postino - just want you to know I'm not trying to be argumentative - I would love to find out that I'm wrong so I could justify a triangular CH on my build! Seriously, if you have a link or reference, please post it. Ever post something, then reread it and it just doesn't sound right? All I can say is we had a GREAT barbecue last night...
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Hey, thanks for all the input, that helped. I have a slightly different agenda on my retro rifles, I hope I don't offend anybody by this, as that is NOT my intention. I'm 52 years old, and have been collecting miitary weapons since I was 14 (understanding parents:-) I was a Garand and FAL "collector" back in the early 80s to the early 90s. Then with the ban, everything went ballistic price wise. Unfortunately my wages didn't go ballistic as well. So I couldn't really afford to be a collector anymore, and some of the things I owned I couldn't really enjoy shooting as it could ruin their collectability. At that point I realized at least for me, that collections were for wealthier people than me, and I was happy with nice shooters that looked correct. So here's my take on my XM16E1 build, the lower internals will be current prodution stuff, that I will have a machinest friend add the "divots" to, and reparkerize, I will buy and use a NoDak triangular CH, and a duckbill (from 45Bravo?). I have the correct improved 3-prong FH, and later style CH already, I'll just keep them in the "parts box" in case I need the rifle to look "perfect" for a historical display or some such thing. My thinking is that I can have a representation of an early XM16, that won't break the bank, will make the average AR shooter realize he's looking at something differet/early, and more importantly, not ultilize any collectable parts, thus saving them for you who care about that stuff (which there is NOTHING wrong with, it's just not my "thing" anymore). Yet on the outside my rifle will appear "old school" and hopefully, without you guys picking it up and studying it, upon first glance you would think you're looking at a "real" retro rifle. My XM16E1/601 clone, is ultilizing a Colt M16A1 upper, w/chromed lined 1-12 barrel. A nice solid buttplate, but stock, and a A1 pistol grip, all of which is setting on my work bench:-) I will buy a chromed serrated bolt carrier group, as soon as I find out who has the cheapest current production version. The lower of course is a NoDak XM16E1 type, that I ordered last week. My intent is hopefully to have a rifle that appears to be a collectable early XM16 type, but in reality is just a good shooter, that is accurate & reliable, and that I don't have to worry about any nicks or scrapes damaging it's "collectability" (since it doesn't have any collectaility) when I jump out of my Deuce-and-a-half, while chasing jackrabbits in the AZ desert. I realize now, with the duckbill & Tri-CH, the XM16E1 won't be "factory" correct, but damaged battlefield "pick-ups" were probably disassembled, and similiar parts thrown in boxes, or 55 gal barrels, then rebuilt with the armorers using the first part that they pulled out of the box, not careing whether it was the "correct" part or not, as long as it was servicable. At least this was done during WWII as there are pictures documenting it. So conceivably, my XM16E1/601 clone "could" have been assembled "back in the day", at a unit, or divisional armory level. At least until I know better......"That's my story, and I'm sticking to it!" Thanks for all your input - Keep your powder dry! Semper Fi Tom Kelly Buckeye, AZ |
| Have fun with your build and post pics when your done. Your going to find that in the retro community, there are those who are purists and those that just like the old look. I personally fall somewhere in between and it's a lot of fun. Anything you make will be unique in a big way so enjoy. |
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I didn't know that some Colt 601 rifles used A2 sights and 3 round burst... Just about anything is possible with the AR, since most of the parts interchange. You can "make" a real bastard child if you want to, or in the case of the USAF, if you don't care about being "pattern correct". I completely understand the desire to make a clone be as close as possible to the original issued rifle. There are certain accepted configurations for the various rifle models we discuss and collect. There will always be aberrations or exceptions to the rule. However, when setting out to build a "clone", it would seem that one would strive to duplicate the features of the recognized standard issue rifle. |
No shit, you have a surplus Deuce&1/2??? I was a mechanic in 9th Motors at Camp Hansen back in '71; we had 62+ 5-tonners, and only 2 deuces (wrecker & fueler). But except for the turbo & axles, the same truck.
That sounds like fun!  My ex-wife emailed me last year from AZ; she wanted to get out of my mortgage loan so she could move out of "this Hell-hole!" (her words)... I was stationed at Pendleton in '70; I liked the desert Southwest...(which SoCal technically isn't, but on the bus runs to Norton, we passed through many small towns on the edge of the Mojave...)
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I never get tired of looking at the pictures of this mutt. Its like that ugly puppy in the corner that is begging to be taken home. (or in this case "build me )
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Postino: My other hobby is collecting/restoring military vehicles (MV). Over the last 35+ years, I've owned/restored several MVs in that time period, started out with a rode-hard-and-put-up-wet Dodge M37, I learned most of my "not what to do" mistakes on that truck. I think M37s are the perfect American MV for a beginner, parts are reletively easy to get & afford, and they are GREAT off-road. My shooting partner and I would drag so much gear out into the desert that we out grew the M37, so I bought an early "gasser" M35 Deuce (gas engine). That was a GREAT truck, should have never sold it, but I had a friend into 5-tons, and being an American with that "bigger is better notion", he helped covince me I needed a 5-ton.....BIG mistake, as far as our desert expeditions were concerned (too long of a story for here), but I thought the 5-ton would be a better prime mover for my WWII M3A1 halftrack. (yeah.....I sold the halftrack too, ......DOH!) Not liking the 5-ton, I managed to trade into a nice M35A2 with the "C" turboed Multi-Fuel engine. This truck has the airshift transfer case, and one day will have a winch. I am VERY happy with the Deuce. For what me and my buddy like to do, this is our perfect desert cruising truck. I'm a "little" wiser now, and I have NO plans on getting rid of this Deuce, just occasionally upgrade her, and hopefully keep her forever. I've owned a couple other M37s over the years, and just drug another M37 project home about 8 months ago. It runs, so hopefully I can get my strength up (recovering from chemo), and get her road wrthy, and painted. I used to own a nice Interational M2-4, it's the WWII USMC 1-ton cargo truck, like you see with rocket launchers in the back on Iwo Jima, yeah...I sold it too! :-( My daily driver is a M1009 CUCV (Chevy Blazer), bought from a county auction, after the Sheriff Dept abused her, at least they added Air-Conditioning, which comes in handy in AZ! Fortunately at this point in my life, while I do have financial constraints to contend with, and my priorities have changed since the near-death cancer incident, my main focus now being on my wife, and friends, the Lord has blessed me enough that I've now been able to recover examples of some of the cool stuff I used to own, except now they're just "cool to have", as opposed to being an obsession. I'd like to build one of each a NDS-32 and a 601, but I can't really justify it financially, and I'm a 308/M14 kind of guy, 3 AR types (M16A1/XM16E1/XM177E2) is enough for me (I hope, retro builds are addicting though, don't you know? :-) so that's why I'm going to backdate the XM16E1 clone with a tri-CH & Duckbill, it's going to be my "compromise clone", I'll have the correct CH & updated 3-proned FH for when I do a Vietnam display with my vehicles, so it looks correct. But for range and/or desert use it'll wear the early stuff. That's why I'd rather use repro parts than originals, as I don't want to hoarde the original stuff, for a non-original clone, when I know there's people on this site who really want/need/desire and would appreciate the original parts. This way I get good functional clone, and the collectors can have at the original parts. That seems like a win-win to me. Semper Fi Tom |
Same here; two regimens of chemo & a radical dissection/resection...14 years ago...Had to sell everything I owned...but I'm slowly getting most of it back...or a reasonable facsimile...
I'd rather use new repros as well. Or just make my own. I wish I still had my M1A...  Post a pic of your Deuce if you get a chance! "Postino" H&S, 9th MT 3rdMarDiv FMF-Pac 1970-71 |
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