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Posted: 9/17/2008 6:32:49 AM EDT
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double tap and buffalo bore put out some pretty fast 147gr bullets in the +p+ range. something like 1150fps out of a 5" pistol barrel, so I would think you could tack on another 100-200 fps with a 10.5" barrel and get less flash, muzzle blast, and maybe even reduced noise. |
True. But, I reallllly like hunting with 147 subsonics in a 5.5" 9mm upper, suppressed. Hogs are just DRT from the round. Granted, the 147 TCMC does not expand, doesn't fragment and is not a rifle round, but it would not leave me in doubt as to the impact on a human. Given an (SBR)option, I would want a 5.56 in 11.5" suppressed if I KNEW the flag had gone up. But, if I only had the 9mm, I would not feel under gunned. I did it the Arfcom way, I got both. TRG |
granted, so a .22 round hole (if it does not frag)trumps a 9mm round hole if it does not expand? at rifle length barrel speeds at the same range, I have no doubt, 5.56 wins. but cut that velocity down significantly and does not the higher speed 9mm start to equal out a bit? |
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Well you can do it with either. I am not arguing wounding capability. Either can be effective. But if you are not using a sound suppressor, the noise, blast, flash from a short 5.56 should be a consideration. Inside a dwelling it can be unpleasant. If you fire from a vehicle, make sure the muzzle is outside the window. |
yep, BTDT in training with a 16" from the back of a minivan out through the windsheild. thank god for double ear pro.  |
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shoot an orange or watermelon at a 100 yards with 5.56 to be sure your velocity is about the same as a SBR 5.56 up close. 100 yards should slow your projectile down quite a bit. compare the damage to the unfortunate fruit to the damage of one shot up close with a 9mm. Personally, I think 5.56 wins. I'm pretty sure it'll fragment a good amount. there is a reason the SCAR and other new 5.56 platform rifles are using shorter barrels for CQB. I'm sure its really effective... |
Out of a 10.5, yeah, that'll work for close range stuff. But out of a 7.5, it won't fragment from the get go. |
| 75 grain OTM will yaw in 2" even if it does not fragment. 9mm is a pistol round... its low velocity and it tends to push tissue aside or crush it towrd the center of the round and tissue at the edges is pushed out of the way. I would take a 5.56 75 grain OTM out of a 10.5" barrel at any range over a 9mm every single time. As a projectile speeds up tissue has less of a chance to move out of the way or slide by the projectile, also the temporary cavity increases allowing inelastic tissues like the liver, brain, etc. to be torn or be torn or more extensively damaged. |
I dont know. I know there were a lot of tests done a couple years ago by a group comparing the MP5SD to a Suppressed 7" 5.56. The 5.56 came out ahead in every category, and many MP5s were replaced with new uppers for the M16s. If lethality is the concern, and the option is available, 5.56 is the correct choice. If all you have is a 9mm, it will work. I have an 8" 338 spectre next to my bed at night, so I guess it depends on what options you have available. |
| in a shtf scenario you would also have to take into account the 5.56 muzzle blast from a 7.5-10" brl and also spl of ~165dB+ in a room, so i would think you would be deaf and blind from the first 5.56 rnd, not so much w/ a pistol rnd. this is assuming the 5.56 is not suppressed. |
If you can use expanding 9mm you can use expanding 5.56/.223. even a 5.56 fmj that tumbles should create a wound rivaling the best 9mm hps. Plus you get ap capabilities if that matters to you - for a fighting weapon id choose 5.56. I used to think 9mm would be supperior until reading a few threads here. If you want quietness i would imagine the 9mm with subsonics (or a .45 upper ) would be the way to go.
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Doesn't the integrally suppressed MP5 reduce the performance of 9mm to approx. .380 specs? I could be wrong. |
I've heard it from several people (not just random dudes on the internet) but never had any first-hand knowledge to know either way. edit: here's a link. i understand why now. www.hkpro.com/mp5sd.htm
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It brings a 115 gr projectile down to less than 1000 fps, which is more than 380 specs, but not by a lot. |
I have actually been thinking about this very same subject myself. For my use the 9mm SBR might just be the way to go. For home defense a 7.5" spitting 147 grain hp seems to have a few advantages. 1) no fireball 2)not near as loud 3)subsonic and therefore a supressor would be much more effective 3)cheaper for practice. I'll admit that a 5.56 is more powerful, but that's what my 16" barrel is for. If I was still in .mil I might feel different but for my situation it seems like a route worth considering. Damnit, I think I think just talked myself into a 9mm SBR! 
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+1  ... in same situation here debating SBRing my 6520 vs 6450(9mm Colt)...I agree, and am leaning towards 9mm SBR for home defense....Plus there is debate on ARFCOM about gas port needing enlargment when cutting down an existing 5.56 barrel(like my 6520)..9mm blowback escapes that possible issue.
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| I really like my 5" 9mm barrel with suppressor a lot. It is very compact and powerfull and quiet. However I also have a 11.5" 5.56mm upper which is nicer if your enemy has body armor on. For me since most bad guys don't wear armor and I don't sleep with ear plugs I'm a big fan of a suppressed subgun for home defense. |
i am sure they will start....home invasions w/ body armor are on the rise here in az...especially the mid to southern parts. |
while I am sure that there are some good reasons for that, one I think that was key to the decision was the bad guys use of body armor and that 9mm is not effective against that as well as 5.56 is. |
And because HK didn't treat the USMC right. |
well said... all in all, 5.56 is all around a more powerful round than a nine. bullet to powder load ratio is just so different between the two rounds. If its a 10.5" barrel like was stated and all your looking for is power, go with the 5.56. Not that the 9mm wont do the job for the most part. My next rifle is going to be a 9mm SBR just for cheap ammo and simply because its fun to shoot, and I like the round when suppressed... |
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The only advantage a 9x19 SMG has over a 5.56 sub-carbine is when using a suppressor. A Colt SMG or H&K UMP 9x19 using a can and subsonic ammo will be much quieter than a suppressed 5.56. Subsonic 5.56 ammo that can cycle the action is essentially vaporware... Then again, if you needed to make a super-stealth shot or series of super-stealth shots, why not use a suppressed handgun? 5.56x45 trumps 9x19 period. A rifle is a rifle, a pistol is a pistol... Neither a SMG or subcarbine is designed to be a 100 yard+ weapon. Over its intended range, ammo like Mk262 will fragment just fine. Fragment or not, you could still make a 200+yard shot with a Mk18. Good luck trying the same with a SMG... 5.56x45 is better in every way, with the exception of super-stealth...Otherwise, a sub-carbine trumps a SMG every time. |
I don't know what the velocity is but I was pinging plates with my 9mm sub gun out to 400 yards with regularity last week. ping'd em pretty good, and the misses kicked up significant amount of dirt. I wouldn't want to get hit by it even at that range, 
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My home Defense gun is a Suppressed 10.5-11.5 5.56 AR. it just works. look at it anyway you want. but 90% of either is going to be shot placement... surely none of you plan on just spraying the area with rounds in an attempt to hit the tango... I mean. I have a MP5k/PDW with a can and 3 30rd mags for of 147gr. Sub sonics... if I had to grab it, I don't think I would worry. hell for that matter a 22lr with a (maybe 2) WELL PLACED shots is going to do the job also. SHOT PLACEMENT SHOT PLACEMENT SHOT PLACEMENT!!!! on a side note here... if you don't have a can on the 5.56SBR i would HIGHLY go against using it indoors. I've shot them inside before with no hearing protection.... F flashbangs. 3 M855 rounds inside a 12x14 room will just about deafen you... |
yea mate, I've taken my M92fs and rung the steel at 98 meters before... now it way only 50% or so accuracy wise.. it can be done with enough practice. |
well it helped that it was a 10.5" barrel in a carbine platform and I had it on a rest. I had to walk the rounds in, but once I had the eotech sighted in, hitting the steel was about as easy as any other rifle type gun.(at 400 yards) I think most of the misses came from ammo differences and inconsistancies. plus the wind had picked up to a 15-20mph from the 1 o'clock direction. |
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