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Posted: 2/18/2010 9:18:33 AM EDT
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These two jackass rangemasters assured me that if I did not thoroughly clean my AR (Bushmaster 1:9 upper) after using my CMMG conversion kit the lead buildup would cause a kaboom next time I shot .223/5.56 NATO through it. I'm pretty sure they are wrong but they got me worried and I want to ask the experts just in case. I'm concerned because I do not have any way to clean the barrel at this time.
I have shot approximately 600 rounds of regular ammo through the upper, and cleaned the bolt/chamber twice. I have never cleaned the barrel. I shot 350 rounds of mixed .22 LR though the kit this morning. I was unable to finish up by firing regular 5.56 to clean out the gas tube as CMMG recommends because the rangemasters were going to make me pay $15 to upgrade my port from pistol to rifle. Thanks in advance. |
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I've dumped two milk cartons (1100 rounds) through a rifle in .22, then finished it off with three rounds of .223 to blow the crud out with no problems. No reason yours should be different.
A kaboom CANNOT result from blocking the gas port - that'll just keep it from functioning semi-auto. Theoretically, sufficient leading in the bore could lead an unsafe high pressure condition when switching back to centerfire ammo, but it would take a LOT more than a few hundred, or even a few thousand rounds of .22LR, with no .223 and no cleaning to even remotely lead the bore that much. |
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I've dumped two milk cartons (1100 rounds) through a rifle in .22, then finished it off with three rounds of .223 to blow the crud out with no problems. No reason yours should be different. A kaboom CANNOT result from blocking the gas port - that'll just keep it from functioning semi-auto. Theoretically, sufficient leading in the bore could lead an unsafe high pressure condition when switching back to centerfire ammo, but it would take a LOT more than a few hundred, or even a few thousand rounds of .22LR, with no .223 and no cleaning to even remotely lead the bore that much. OH, if only that were true! I had some white box Winchester bulk stuff. HAD>>.I threw it out. Three of my .22 firearms got leaded so badly you could not believe. One I had to take a cleaning rod and plastic hammer and knock the ring of lead out of the barrel. This is after only a few hundred rounds, one session at the range. I had noticed the gun had begun to shoot a bit erratic as the day went on. No wonder! Barrels can lead up in a few hundred rounds. Ask me how I know! I am lucky damage didn't get done. I would have never believed it could happen either until it hit on my guns. No more unplated ammo for me. |
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OK guys, this is the deal. Shooting lead ammo through a barrel and not removing it will cause a subsequent reduction in the diameter of the bore diameter. Shooting high power jacketed ammo may cause, depending on the amount of buildup, a dangerous over pressure situation which may result in the firearm blowing up. If you're going to shoot .22lr ammo through a .223 barrel, use the copper plated but if you MUST use lead clean it out after shooting with a dry bronze bore brush. Using a wet bore brush will cause the lubricated bore brush to glide over the lead and NOT remove it. After using the dry bore brush, use a solvent along the lines of Shooters Choice Lead Remover. Follow the instructions on the bottle and keep at it until the patches are no longer gray. If you use a chrome lined bore the clean up will be easier.
Marty |
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OH, if only that were true! I had some white box Winchester bulk stuff. HAD>>.I threw it out. Three of my .22 firearms got leaded so badly you could not believe. One I had to take a cleaning rod and plastic hammer and knock the ring of lead out of the barrel. This is after only a few hundred rounds, one session at the range. I had noticed the gun had begun to shoot a bit erratic as the day went on. No wonder! Barrels can lead up in a few hundred rounds. Ask me how I know! I am lucky damage didn't get done. I would have never believed it could happen either until it hit on my guns. No more unplated ammo for me. #1 glad nothing really bad happened #2 guess it's lucky, or at least serendipitous, that I only shoot plated .22 #3 although I shoot from a dedicated .22lr barrel now, I don't slug or scrape it for lead residue, and it's going strong after 10k+ rounds of plated ammo, with excellent accuracy. This barrel was a 1x12 former 16" barrel I cut to 10.5", plugged the gas port, and contoured down to .5" diameter along its full length (except the chamber/throat area incident to the barrel extension) to reduce weight, given that it is now dedicated to .22. |
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I've gone from .22 cmmg bolt to 5.56 Colt bolt and shot many times. granted i almost always use copper plated .22 rounds
I do not believe there is any really precedence unless. maybe if i put multiple thousand .22 rounds down range before switching. don't think I've gone over 1000 before switching. |
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Two things make this a more difficult thing to happen in conversions. 1. The chamber is part of the conversion is removed from the rifle when switching over to .223/5.56 ammo. 2. The .22lr round is undersized compared to the bore limiting the amount of leading that occurs each time a .22lr bullet travels down the barrel.
This is more common in Magnum revolvers where the shooter has been shooting Special rounds. Special rounds are 1/8" shorter than Magnum rounds and will build up a ring in the chamber when fired. The ring will make it harder to chamber the rounds and will cause the drastic rise in pressure that leads to the gun exploding. Marty |
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These two jackass rangemasters. Let's face it, the only reason you think the rangemasters are jackasses is they were enforcing range rules. In other words, doing their job. As you were shooting on a privately owned range, their rules apply. It's their property and their liablility on the line. Both criminally and financially. If they saw you doing an unsafe act, didn't attempt to stop you and you were injured or killed, they are guilty of criminal negligence. In addition, they would be civilly liable. If something had happened, they could have been sued by you or your family and lost their business, their homes and everything they worked for. Quoted:
the rangemasters were going to make me pay $15 to upgrade my port from pistol to rifle. As rifle rounds cause more damage and deteriorate the backstop faster than pistol rounds do, I can understand the higher price for shooting rifles. Rifle shooters should pay for the increased damage they do to indoor ranges. Marty |
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These two jackass rangemasters. Let's face it, the only reason you think the rangemasters are jackasses is they were enforcing range rules. In other words, doing their job. As you were shooting on a privately owned range, their rules apply. It's their property and their liablility on the line. Both criminally and financially. If they saw you doing an unsafe act, didn't attempt to stop you and you were injured or killed, they are guilty of criminal negligence. In addition, they would be civilly liable. If something had happened, they could have been sued by you or your family and lost their business, their homes and everything they worked for. Quoted:
the rangemasters were going to make me pay $15 to upgrade my port from pistol to rifle. As rifle rounds cause more damage and deteriorate the backstop faster than pistol rounds do, I can understand the higher price for shooting rifles. Rifle shooters should pay for the increased damage they do to indoor ranges. I didn't know that. Marty I just want to clarify. I'm not calling them jackasses because they were enforcing the rules. I'm calling them jackasses because they are jackasses. I was wearing electronic earmuffs, and the guys were standing behind my port, so I could hear them talking. No on else could hear them because they were all wearing disposable earplugs. The two of them were standing there making fun of everyone at the range. The were criticizing everything from people's stances to their outfits. There was an elderly guy who appeared to have Parkinson's shooting a revolver in the port adjacent to mine, and they were having a hoot joking about his groups. My friend said that they were discussing my rifle, and one of them disdainfully said "Why would you buy one of those? It's just a .22 on steroids." When the first guy told me about the possible kaboom, I politely thanked him for the info. The second guy said "You didn't know that?" like I was an idiot. I have never seen either of them give a single word of instruction to anyone. I was there one night and an obviously new gunowner came with his wife to shoot their new pistol. He put up a target and rapid fired off a few rounds like an action hero. The rangemaster SCREAMED at him and threw them out without a refund. Would it have killed him to give a beginner three minutes of instruction? He might have made a new regular customer. Besides, if I was being so unsafe why didn't they stop me? I felt like they were just giving me shit, which is why I am checking here. I guess it turns out that they were right, but they need to work on their communication skills. |
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OK guys, this is the deal. Shooting lead ammo through a barrel and not removing it will cause a subsequent reduction in the diameter of the bore diameter. Shooting high power jacketed ammo may cause, depending on the amount of buildup, a dangerous over pressure situation which may result in the firearm blowing up. If you're going to shoot .22lr ammo through a .223 barrel, use the copper plated but if you MUST use lead clean it out after shooting with a dry bronze bore brush. Using a wet bore brush will cause the lubricated bore brush to glide over the lead and NOT remove it. After using the dry bore brush, use a solvent along the lines of Shooters Choice Lead Remover. Follow the instructions on the bottle and keep at it until the patches are no longer gray. If you use a chrome lined bore the clean up will be easier. Marty Do you have any source for this info or did you just make it all up? |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
OK guys, this is the deal. Shooting lead ammo through a barrel and not removing it will cause a subsequent reduction in the diameter of the bore diameter. Shooting high power jacketed ammo may cause, depending on the amount of buildup, a dangerous over pressure situation which may result in the firearm blowing up. If you're going to shoot .22lr ammo through a .223 barrel, use the copper plated but if you MUST use lead clean it out after shooting with a dry bronze bore brush. Using a wet bore brush will cause the lubricated bore brush to glide over the lead and NOT remove it. After using the dry bore brush, use a solvent along the lines of Shooters Choice Lead Remover. Follow the instructions on the bottle and keep at it until the patches are no longer gray. If you use a chrome lined bore the clean up will be easier. Marty Do you have any source for this info or did you just make it all up? No, I didn't make up ANY of it. The cleaning process is the one I use on my competion revolvers which exclusively use lead ammunition. The wet bore brush not removing lead was told to me by higher ranking competitors that I confirmed through my own experience. As far as blown up firearms caused by shooting lead low pressure ammo followed jacketed high pressure ammunition, I have seen the results. Additionally, I have cleaned the lead out of heavily leaded firearms. If you check the owner's manual of semi-auto firearms you will find warnings and one manufacturer specifically prohibits it to the point they will void your warranty. Btw, I also inform my students of the dangers we're discussing. Here's the prohibtion from Front Sight: http://www.frontsightproshop.com/ammoreq.html Here's an article from Shooting Times: http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammunition/ST_lowdownleadfoul_201002/index.html Marty BTW, that little handgun under my screen name indicates I am a Firearms Instructor. Striker and Goatboy don't give those icons to just anyone. You have to prove to them you are one to get it. |
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I just want to clarify. I'm not calling them jackasses because they were enforcing the rules. I'm calling them jackasses because they are jackasses. I was wearing electronic earmuffs, and the guys were standing behind my port, so I could hear them talking. No on else could hear them because they were all wearing disposable earplugs. The two of them were standing there making fun of everyone at the range. The were criticizing everything from people's stances to their outfits. There was an elderly guy who appeared to have Parkinson's shooting a revolver in the port adjacent to mine, and they were having a hoot joking about his groups. My friend said that they were discussing my rifle, and one of them disdainfully said "Why would you buy one of those? It's just a .22 on steroids." When the first guy told me about the possible kaboom, I politely thanked him for the info. The second guy said "You didn't know that?" like I was an idiot. I have never seen either of them give a single word of instruction to anyone. I was there one night and an obviously new gunowner came with his wife to shoot their new pistol. He put up a target and rapid fired off a few rounds like an action hero. The rangemaster SCREAMED at him and threw them out without a refund. Would it have killed him to give a beginner three minutes of instruction? He might have made a new regular customer.. Well, this does make it different. If you had explained this originally, I wouldn't have said anything. As a Firearms Instructor, I treat everyone like I want to be treated. In addition, making fun of people and treating them like they are stupid just causes a barrier to good communication which is important for learning to occur. I turned down an applicant to be an instructor for just this reason. He made fun of other officers and showed contempt towards them. There is no way they would have been in a class given by him with an open mind. This is why I explained the danger including the why and how it happens. Quoted:
Besides, if I was being so unsafe why didn't they stop me? I felt like they were just giving me shit, which is why I am checking here. I guess it turns out that they were right, but they need to work on their communication skills. You weren't being unsafe using the .22lr adapter. The danger was when you went to change to .223 or 5.56mm. They stopped you. One instructor explained the danger and the other treated you with contempt. Also, he probably was the one making fun of your AR. Next time take a rod, bore brush, jag and patches with you and clean the barrel before you switch over. It will only take you a couple of minutes. I'm glad we could clear up the misunderstanding. If you've got any questions, feel free to send me a pm or email. Marty |
| 10 1/2 SBR I put close to 500 rounds of 22lr just wiped it down. Next day took same rifle to a NRA Women on Target fun shoot, the ladies put over 1200 rounds that afternoon. That evening I ran a brush and a couple patches, put the 5.56 bolt in, first round FTE, 2rd round same, 3rd round ejected but bolt didn't move back enough to load another round, 4 round worked fine. Cleaned bolt and gas tube. I don't think I would shoot over 500 rounds without putting a couple of 5.56 to blow gas port out. Oh, the more than 1200 rounds only 2 FTE, I was there loading the mags, with no loader, I wouldn't do that again |
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