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Posted: 7/3/2014 1:25:10 PM EDT
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I'm not new to guns but new to AR's
I got my first recently. A palmetto m4 carbine. At the time the only ammo I could find was Tul. I ran two boxes through the rifle and it functioned flawlessly. So, I wound up buying a BUNCH more. So, I went and "messed up" the rifle. I swapped the stock out for an A2 stock, tube, buffer and spring, all were new take offs from a bushmaster. I also replaced the barrel with a stag 24 inch stainless bull. So, now my rifle is short stroking with the Tul. No fte's no problems chambering. Strictly short stroking and not picking up the next round or locking the bolt back on an empty magazine. I'm guessing the gas port being further away from the chamber is not allowing the lower powered ammo to fully cycle the bolt? The only other ammo I had was some Hornady Zombie rounds that my son got me as a joke. No short stroking. So, obviously, my rifle doesn't like Tul I know its junk and most people say don't use it. But I've got enough of it that I'd be out a LOT of money if I just threw it away. So, two questions. Is there anything I can do to allow my rifle to function better with the Tul? From what I've read, I THINK I have it adequately lubed. The bcg was clean, the barrel was brand new. Is it going to do any damage to the rifle pulling the charging handle for every shot? (just to use up the ammo I have) Thanks everyone. I won't be buying any more of this ammo, but I'd really like to get some use out of it now that I have it. |
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Common issue with low profile gas blocks is installing them butted up against the barrel shoulder without a handguard ring which causes a partial gas port obstruction. Without a photo or specific info don't know if that applies to your setup.
Tula is not good ammo and frequently causes problems in ARs due to its odd pressure curve. Seems strange you would take the trouble to install a 24" bull barrel and then shoot the absolute worst quality ammo you can put in it, particularly ammo well known to accelerate bore erosion/wear. |
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Thanks everybody, especially 789.
As for all the obvious answers... I already said I knew it was ammo related and knew it was crap ammo. Shouldn't be at all confusing why I'd go through the trouble of installing a 24 inch barrel and using crap ammo because I said why. For those in the cheap seats..... I already had a BUNCH of cheap ammo BEFORE I changed the barrel. I don't want to just throw it away. But seriously, to those that actually took the time to read my post and actually offer suggestions, I appreciate it. 789, do you think I could modify a carbine buffer instead? Just a little nervous about destroying my buffer and I've got a spare carbine buffer |
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Quoted:
Thanks everybody, especially 789. As for all the obvious answers... I already said I knew it was ammo related and knew it was crap ammo. Shouldn't be at all confusing why I'd go through the trouble of installing a 24 inch barrel and using crap ammo because I said why. For those in the cheap seats..... I already had a BUNCH of cheap ammo BEFORE I changed the barrel. I don't want to just throw it away. But seriously, to those that actually took the time to read my post and actually offer suggestions, I appreciate it. 789, do you think I could modify a carbine buffer instead? Just a little nervous about destroying my buffer and I've got a spare carbine buffer No, it's still confusing. I wouldn't get too defensive in light of the situation you presented. It appears you were trying to create a precision AR yet you are using arguably the crappiest ammo available for precision and reliability. I think everyone gets why you would use it in your previous configured rifle. Current setup...not so much. Results, not too surprising. Have you done what Gamma suggested and ruled out gasblock alignment issues? If so, and all is good and you are still set on running the low quality, underpowered, steel case ammo through your precision rifle, you have a couple options. One of the easiest to try would be a lighter (weaker) buffer spring like a Wolff reduced power buffer spring. $15 at Brownells. Then when you switch back to better ammo you can put your original spring back in. |
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Buffer weight (mass) has more effect than lighter springs.
if you put the carbine buffer back in that rifle tube YOU MUST USE A SPACER BEHIND THAT CARBINE BUFFER (spring really). Well you should try it (with out live ammo). Take the upper off and remove buffer spring. Place rifle buffer in tube and place BCG on top of it. You will notice that it slides down to about 1/4" passed were the bolt stop is. Now try that with your carbine buffer. You will notice that the gas key strikes the rear receiver ring before it bottoms out. Now imagine that happening at 160 inches per second (yea... that would not be good). A military standard M16A2 has a rearward BCG velocity of 160 inches per second. The M4 has a rearward BCG velocity of 240 inches per second The carbine is a little more temperamental to ammo changes (to run at optimum). But in your case you have a set-up that is designed for hotter ammo and have choked it off with the cheap stuff. I have found that the rifle buffers seem to be easer to take apart than the carbines. It is just a roll pin holding that rubber end in place. Of course I have found rifle buffers that also glued that dammed end on. Since you just have too throw out that ammo now I will dispose of it at no cost. |
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Quoted:
How is it confusing. I ALREADY have the ammo and don't want to throw it out. I don't have another AR. Should I just throw several hundred rounds of ammo in the trash? Not saying throw your ammo away. Can't ever have too much IMO. Lol! It just sounded like you made an effort at assembling a more accurate upper. I would want to feed it something that might let me experience the benefits of those efforts. Maybe take your leftover barrel and put it on This and $20 of parts to complete... along with This to shoot up the Tula. Less "confusing". It's totally your business what you shoot in your rifle. The "logic" of what your doing now is what was confusing to me at least. Not trying to be a dick. Like I said, do whatever you like. Just doesn't make much sense to go to the trouble of building what sounds like something capable of considerably more accuracy than the original config only to handicap your efforts with dirt ammo. But maybe you want to see how accurate Tula can be. That's cool. It's your rifle. 
Out of curiosity, how did the gasblock look? |
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Quoted:
Buffer weight (mass) has more effect than lighter springs. if you put the carbine buffer back in that rifle tube YOU MUST USE A SPACER BEHIND THAT CARBINE BUFFER (spring really). Well you should try it (with out live ammo). Take the upper off and remove buffer spring. Place rifle buffer in tube and place BCG on top of it. You will notice that it slides down to about 1/4" passed were the bolt stop is. Now try that with your carbine buffer. You will notice that the gas key strikes the rear receiver ring before it bottoms out. Now imagine that happening at 160 inches per second (yea... that would not be good). Um, why would he put the carbine buffer in a rifle tube? He has the correct rifle parts. The spring change will be just as effective and easier to swap vs. removing or reinstalling buffer weights if he chooses to switch back and forth between the lower impulse ammunition. |
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Quoted:
Not saying throw your ammo away. Can't ever have too much IMO. Lol! It just sounded like you made an effort at assembling a more accurate upper. I would want to feed it something that might let me experience the benefits of those efforts. Maybe take your leftover barrel and put it on This and $20 of parts to complete... along with This to shoot up the Tula. Less "confusing". It's totally your business what you shoot in your rifle. The "logic" of what your doing now is what was confusing to me at least. Not trying to be a dick. Like I said, do whatever you like. Just doesn't make much sense to go to the trouble of building what sounds like something capable of considerably more accuracy than the original config only to handicap your efforts with dirt ammo. But maybe you want to see how accurate Tula can be. That's cool. It's your rifle.
Out of curiosity, how did the gasblock look? Quoted:
Quoted:
How is it confusing. I ALREADY have the ammo and don't want to throw it out. I don't have another AR. Should I just throw several hundred rounds of ammo in the trash? Not saying throw your ammo away. Can't ever have too much IMO. Lol! It just sounded like you made an effort at assembling a more accurate upper. I would want to feed it something that might let me experience the benefits of those efforts. Maybe take your leftover barrel and put it on This and $20 of parts to complete... along with This to shoot up the Tula. Less "confusing". It's totally your business what you shoot in your rifle. The "logic" of what your doing now is what was confusing to me at least. Not trying to be a dick. Like I said, do whatever you like. Just doesn't make much sense to go to the trouble of building what sounds like something capable of considerably more accuracy than the original config only to handicap your efforts with dirt ammo. But maybe you want to see how accurate Tula can be. That's cool. It's your rifle.
Out of curiosity, how did the gasblock look? Doesn't sound like you are trying to be a dick. I TOTALLY understand that the ammo doesn't live up to the rifle. Like I said, I won't be buying any more of it, I just want to get some use out of it. I'm not expecting any type of performance out of it, like I said, I just want to use it. thank you for the links and the suggestions. I measured the location of the gas port on the gas block and its location on the barrel. If i'm reading my calipers right, it SHOULD be lines up |
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Quoted:
Assure gas block is tight and not leaking, Go up 1 size gas port. Lighter spring, semi auto carrier. In that order Gee that sounds simple... Just take the upper apart and drill a larger hole in the gas port. I hope you are set-up with a rather good quality drill press, table vice, and numbered drills so you can bump up this gas port .002" (that's two thousands of an inch) at time. Oh yea... don't drill too deep. Now really what sounds simpler: detailed disassembly, resizing gas ports (might not want to go too big, real hard to put that stuff back). Buying a set of specialty springs, and a rather costly BCG for all this prototype work. Which will take multiple tries to get perfect (you had better take small steps in this process). or: Knocking out a roll pin and removing a weight from that rifle buffer. To be a real perfectionist you could replace weight with small spring for same slosh feel. BTW what is the first course of action if some guy or gal does or is suggested to do when their carbine is under gassed and not locking back? (it's try a lighter buffer... when already using "good" ammo) |
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There is a spring out there I would advise you to get:
That Tubbs (as in David Tubbs) Flat wire buffer spring. That way you can use it in your rifle or carbine buffer tube and does a great job preventing carrier bounce. So if you go back to the carbine style stock for the shooter adjustability and all the different weights available you can still use that Tubbs flat wire spring in both set-ups. |
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Thanks again for all the replies.
Am I going to do any damage by using it "single shot" until this ammo is gone? Premature wear on the charging handle rails inside the receiver perhaps? While I love the idea of building another carbine for the cheap ammo, I can't afford it. It would cost me a LOT more to build another rifle than what I've got into the Tula ammo. Given the option I think I'd rather take a totall loss on the Tula and put the money I would have spent on building another rifle into good ammo for my rig. That of course was IF I coudl afford that option. Right now I'm broke :P |
| Why are you intent on throwing ammo in the trash? Even if it won't cycle in your firearm, join a local gun club, 2A forum, etc., that probably has a classified section and put it up for sale. You might take a hit but it wouldn't be a total loss at least. You could even sell it on the EE here, just read the shipping FAQ first. |
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Quoted:
Thanks again for all the replies. Am I going to do any damage by using it "single shot" until this ammo is gone? Premature wear on the charging handle rails inside the receiver perhaps? While I love the idea of building another carbine for the cheap ammo, I can't afford it. It would cost me a LOT more to build another rifle than what I've got into the Tula ammo. Given the option I think I'd rather take a totall loss on the Tula and put the money I would have spent on building another rifle into good ammo for my rig. That of course was IF I coudl afford that option. Right now I'm broke :P No damage. Oil everything up, and just keep stroking that charging handle if it is not picking up the next round. After a couple of mags, the damn thing may loosen up. |
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Quoted:
Why are you intent on throwing ammo in the trash? Even if it won't cycle in your firearm, join a local gun club, 2A forum, etc., that probably has a classified section and put it up for sale. You might take a hit but it wouldn't be a total loss at least. You could even sell it on the EE here, just read the shipping FAQ first. How am I intent on throwing ammo in the trash? I specifically said I don't want to throw it away |
| I have a PSA middy hbar and an RGuns 20in gov profile and havent had an issue with tulammo. I ran about 300rds of xm193 through the PSA before i tried tula. With the RGuns upper, the 2nd mag i ran through it was tula and had 1 ftf and one fte. I since have put 300rds of steel and 150 brass through that upper with no issues. I use an A2 stock lower with standard rifle buffer btw |
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Quoted:
Thanks everybody, especially 789. As for all the obvious answers... I already said I knew it was ammo related and knew it was crap ammo. Shouldn't be at all confusing why I'd go through the trouble of installing a 24 inch barrel and using crap ammo because I said why. For those in the cheap seats..... I already had a BUNCH of cheap ammo BEFORE I changed the barrel. I don't want to just throw it away. But seriously, to those that actually took the time to read my post and actually offer suggestions, I appreciate it. 789, do you think I could modify a carbine buffer instead? Just a little nervous about destroying my buffer and I've got a spare carbine buffer Not for nothing, but quotes like these are off putting and generally don't get you very far. There are no wrong questions, so don't take it personally. Nobody was born an ar master! The interwebs bring all kinds of people, some help, some don't! |
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I'm sorry if you found that off putting.
I was being sincere. I'm not taking anything personally. I truly appreciate the people that really tried to help. And it really drives me nuts when people post without reading. The original post specifically says that the ammo is the problem. Yet people feel the need to chime in to say that the ammo is the problem. Ya think??? just restating what the original poster already said and acting like it's an answer just clutters up the thread So, nothing personal, its just annoying. I was however, genuinely thankful for the advice and suggestions offered. I even appreciated the posts of those that disagreed with my logic. So I wanted them to know. |
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