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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - army expert qualification (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 3/12/2008 10:28:08 AM EDT
| a friend of mine is always braging about being an expert can you guys tell me what this takes to qualify expert and or how big the targets are thanks dan |
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Its a big deal that he qualified expert, because in the Army marksmanship isn't stressed as much at it should be, IMO. Its not a big deal to qualify expert, because that is the Minimum standard for someone who wants to be an awesome shooter. So, yes its a big deal, and no but its a really good start. Just my .02 ETA: when I see someone shoot in the Master Class (NRA high power) I am quite impressed with their marksmanship. The High Masters are REALLY impressive, and would likely shoot perfect AQT scores all day long. |
Minimum qualification is 36 out of 40 targets on the standard qual. On the Alternate Qual it is 38/40. Fast freddie (25m target) is about the size of the average human head and shoulders when high crawling or firing from the prone. All other are the average man from the head to waist. It's pretty easy to get expert, all you have to do is follow your training. If you ever hear anyone brag about getting expert on the M9 qual just laugh. |
19 year Navy active duty here. The statement above goes for us as well. Just means you're not totally incompetent. Tom |
Its also done in full kit with body armor and helmet..... Shooting with that stuff takes some getting used to, especially if the items are ill fitting..... Nothing like a plate in the back of your head or chokes you, a stock that you cannot adjust "just right", and a helmet buckle that prevents a good cheek weld... On the flipside, you are also allowed to use assigned optics.... A 4x ACOG doesnt exactly make it hard.... |
Haven't done it in a while as I am not in a role that requires me to carry and qual with it, but when I did it we either could use the weaver or isosceles two handed grip and it ranged from targets from IIRC 5-25m pop up ivan targets. I'm no super pistol shot, I fire as much as my budget allows, but it was a joke. After the fam round I got bored and just shot at the head, hit every target but one cause I sneezed.
Prone supported you are using sandbags to steady the weapon, or your ruck, fallen branch, bipods, etc. Prone unsupported means that you are firing using just the prone position, meaning elbows and nothing that the weapon can rest on to aid you. |
Agree. I always thought it was easy, though fun, on Army ranges. And though I am sure it is changed now due to lessons learned fighting the current war etc., the last time I qualified in the 25th I.D. we did twenty rounds "foxhole supported" and twenty rounds prone unsupported. Oh, and with the same min. 36/40 to get expert. |
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I've got a neighbor who used to be the one at the other end pulling the targets down, then registering the holes. He says that every now and then, when they really didn't want to be at the qualifications long for a big group of shooters, they'd use a pen to make the hole, then register it as a shot, lol (if there wasn't a hole there). My father, retired after 24 years in the Army, said that he'd never seen that done, but as the senior range officer, from his end, he couldn't guarantee it didn't happen sometimes. |
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It was always fun to me to shoot over 40 on the Fort Hood pistol ranges. Since you get what are called "alibi" rounds and frames, you can double tap the close ones and still have enough to engage all the targets. The hits are registered with input from the molded green plastic "Ivans". The first shot drops the target, but it takes about half a second to drop fully. The second shot passes through and registers another hit. It must be a design flaw where the drop trigger is attached to the target fixture instead of the fixture base. I really didn't mean to geek out on that one. In short, M9 pistol qualification is kind of a joke. I always found it difficult to qualify with the M16A2. You can't qualify expert without hitting some of the 300-meter targets. I always qualified with 31 or 32. I qualified twice with the M4, hitting 35 and 36. I attribute the better performance solely to the fact that I liked the M4 much better than the M16A2. I remember thinking the shorter sight radius was going to cost me, but maybe it increased my concentration. In my defense, I was an Army tanker, so I had about one hour of training on the rifle. In my opinion, to qualify expert with Army rifle is an achievement about which you can say "At least I shot better than the tankers". To qualify expert with Marine rifle is an achievement worth bragging about. What is your friend's MOS? If he's infantry, it's somewhat expected. If he's a scout, then it is absolutely expected. JP |
Anyone who has shot a service rifle match has basically shot the USMC KD course. FWIW, IIRC, I believe Pat Rogers has said he thinks the Army's course of fire is closer to where it should be than the yellowglassesesque Marine KD course. The Army course is more dynamic and interactive although that might be damming with faint praise as the targets do not attempt to advance, evade or flee, simply move 'up' or 'down'. KD ranges are even nortoriously less so. I say IIRC as I do not want to put words into Gunner Rogers mouth. He is more than capable for speaking for himself. |
But on the flipside of that, a 4MOA dot M68 does raise the challenge a little bit for those 300 meter targets. |
On the 'regular' course, the targets are man-sized/shaped pop-ups at varying ranges from 50 to 300m... You must hit 36 or more out of 40 On the 'alternate' paper-target course, the paper target is placed at 25m, and you must hit 38 out of 40 targets. which are 'scaled' to represent the size of the pop-ups on the 'real' range... Position changes are involved. Magazine changes during shooting are not (2 stages,. 20 rds per stage, change position & reload between stages... |
They are shot 2-handed (proper 'combat' pistol stance) But the farthest target is only 10 or 15m away, and the targets are man-sized pop-up silhouettes... Round-count and reloading is still modeled after the M1911... |
Wow, if you can't punch a good head-sized group at 10-15m that is pretty bad assuming you have shot a pistol before. |
Its only 4 MOA on full blast... Adjust the dot down to a click or two above off... Good to go... 90% of the pain of trying to qualify with all that crap on is getting a good sight picture with irons..... |
Well that wins the most Ignorant statement of the week award. Obviously spoken by someone who has never qualified expert. The Army's course of fire is meant to add the stress of knowing the targets are only exposed for a few seconds each time they come up. Add in the IOTV or IBA, Brain bucket and whatever else mother nature throws at you it IS NOT easy. Even the best marksman have trouble time to time. I trained hundreds of soldiers while part of the USARMTU and I can tell you that most people in the Army and Marine Corp for that matter have some difficulty qualifying expert. If the Army would give soldiers more ammo than 18 rounds for zero and 40 for qual, I think many could do better more often. But they dont. The best training is normal during Mobe, when you get plenty of range time, or at least we did. I am sorry but your statement is misleading and belittling of the course of fire. From what I understand the Marine Corp. Has adopted the Pop-up range style and added it to their standard course of fire. If the Army would now adopt the Marine Copr standard of KD quals and merge them into to course qualifications I would be as happy as a pig in ...... well you know. I think to be a well rounded and experianced shooter you should do more KD and pop-ups and shoot shoot shoot. BTW after 17 years of Service, Those who brag usually cant do it or havent done it. JMHO cp |
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The Army course is not as easy as it sounds. If it were, the vast majority of soldiers would shoot expert. Add in body armor, helmet, shitty weather usually and it becomes difficult. I've only seen one company size element, (about 100 soldiers), with 100% of their soldiers qualified as expert and they took 12 hours and 54,000 rounds to do it. That averages out to 5400 rds per soldier and a day at the range. M9 expert qual on a pop up target range is a fucking joke. You shoot from the syanding/walking position only, get a rediculous amount of time for a reload and the target will fall if you nick the edge of the target but in real life, the bad guy is still in the fight. Expert M9 qual on the 25 meter stationary target is tough as you shoot from 4 different positions and most of the rounds have to be in the 4/5 ring to get enough points to qualify expert. That means, no shit, center of mass hits. |
+1 I have a whole drawer full of expert tabs for weapons. Rifle is one of the easiest. Bayonet is actually the easiest, followed closely by grenade. TOW can be tricky, damn launch incursions! Your buddy is no Tom Berenger 
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No idea about the Army but the Marine KD course is fairly easy to shoot expert on. The KD course isn't designed to be some huge challenge, it is simply to test your ability to apply the fundamentals of marksmanship. Qualifying expert on the KD range does not mean your a great shooter. |
I was a 3rd award expert in the Marines and had the 8530 MOS. Shooting expert on the KD course is NOT hard. IMO, the Army popup range is actually a little more difficult because there is less margin for error. |
As I said in my last post, I think the Army course of fire is actually harder than the USMC one, but I don't think either of them are truly "hard", or that shooting expert is a great achievement. My USMC KD scores were in the 50s, my last Army score was 39. I'm not saying this to make myself look good, because like I said, I don't consider it a great achievement. It is what it is and nothing more. |
That's funny... The USMC KD rifle course has a max score of 250. A score in the "50's" would be UNQ. |
The course I shot in the FMF went from 0-65. The only time I shot the 250 point course was at SOI. I got out in 2005. Have they gone back to the 250 point course for everything now? |
I always thought Machinegun qualification was the hardest, and most satisfying to get expert in.
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Sep 26 2005 by Lance Cpl. Alec Kleinsmith MARINE CORPS BASE CAMP PENDLETON, CA -- Military technology and training must seek new and unique avenues of approach in their teachings as the face of modern warfare continues to evolve Beginning Oct. 1, the Marine Corps will follow this ideal by introducing two changes to the rifle qualification Marines are required to complete annually, making the program tougher, longer and more rewarding. Though the program is an improvement, it’s only temporary. The Marine Corps is still working to create an even broader and more diverse marksmanship program. “The new course is an interim program, but the Marine Corps is headed in the right direction, and the basic combat shooting skills offers the type of target engagements Marines would most likely use in a hostile environment,” said Chief Warrant Officer 3 Leonard S. Garcia, the officer-in-charge for the marksmanship training branch. The first change is the scoring system, which has been completely revamped. Rather than go by the current “hit or miss” approach, which awards Marines one point for hitting the black of the target and zero for missing, the Corps has adopted the same point system that Marine Corps entry-level recruits go by. Instead of the current maximum of 65 points, the new scoring system allows for a maximum score of 250. To qualify as marksman, Marines will need to score between a 190 to 209, a 210 to 219 for sharpshooter and an expert needs 220 or more. In addition to the new scoring system, Marines will be required to complete an alternate course of fire that more closely resembles a combat-oriented environment. The new course of fire, which will take up the last two days of firing, tests the accuracy and dexterity of Marines by having them fire short, controlled bursts in time limits ranging from three to eight seconds. The most intimidating part of the new course of fire may be the requirements for passing. “If a Marine shoots a high expert on Wednesday but fails the basic combat shooting portion of the qualification on Friday, then that Marine is not qualified,” said Garcia. Once the Marine passes the basic combat shooting portion, he or she will only qualify as a marksman rather than an expert, said Garcia. There are four tables that are used in the new marksmanship program. Table one is fundamental marksmanship, which has Marines practicing using iron sights on the known-distance range. Table two includes three hours of classroom training, followed by practical application drills. Table three includes two to three days of classroom and live-fire training in close combat shooting. All basic Marines will be required to pass tables one through three in order to qualify. Table four, which is the advanced course, will be a requirement for all infantry Marines. The table has the Marines firing more than 500 rounds and requires more classroom training. While the new course doesn’t supply Marines with a completely accurate combat situation, it is a vast improvement from the standard rifle qualification, which allows Marines the luxury to take their time and execute proper firing fundamentals in a relatively stress-free environment. One of the other aspects of the new program may not be a welcome addition to some Marines. Marines who shoot expert for two consecutive years don’t have to go back to the range, but with the new changes that exemption will be more difficult to attain. For instance, if a Marine shoots a low expert score of 220, the Marine’s commander has more authority to order the Marine out to the range again. The new additions seem to be garnering positive attention from many Marines, including range officials. “I really like the new changes to the rifle qualification because it places Marines in a more realistic situation and it’s much more combat oriented,” said Staff Sgt. James D. Groves, the Camp Horno range staff noncommissioned officer-in-charge. “Fundamental marksmanship training will be more challenging because we have increased the standards and we are giving Marines one less day to qualify,” said Garcia. Once implemented, the new changes for rifle qualification will aim to provide Marines with the necessary skills to combat enemy threats in every clime and place. |
I shot expert seven times on the "old" KD course. Guess I wasn't too incompetent.
I side with STG77, if you can't make expert on BRM then in no uncertain terms you suck. |
Present day Army qual is automated for the 'full course'.... We don't have target-pits like the Marines or NRA HP competition... The pop-ups 'know' when they are hit, and fall down.... You could try that when doing alternate (25m) qual, but it would be pretty obvious to the RSOs.... |
Yes and no.. The full kit aspect changes everything...... From 1995-2007, I shot a 39 or a 40 everytime, on the 25m Alt course.. We got to shoot pop ups once.... Kind of hard not to shoot expert; You have sandbags, and all the targets are at the same distance, so you can use the same point of aim...We never used body armor or even a helmet, as the logic was that you were shooting for a score (normally for promotion points, etc)... With the M4, you can adjust everything perfect... This year, I fired on a pop up range, with helmet and interceptor body armor ; In between the body armor jabbing me in the back of the head or chocking me, MOLLE vest jamming in my sack, helmet buckle in the way, having to remember to aim lower for close targets, and actually trying to see the green target against green grass, it took some getting used to....Not to mention the wonderful wind blowing you around, and the M4 stock that was either too short, or too long... I felt bad for the guys with full stocked rifles...... My first score: 8.....Finally peaked at 37... Took a few tries... |
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Sounds like the Army course hasn't changed since I shot it back in 85. I failed my first attempt. he I bet there are GI's today who still get stuck on the overgrown shadowed out lanes making Marksman and Sharpshooter while others shoot expert in bright lanes with shot up clay dirt backgrounds behind every target. Who ever said life was fair. |
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my first go at the course at Ft Benning I got sharpshooter. My lane was pretty clear but where i was prone there was gravel and i could not seat my elbows properly. I got 20/20 from the fox hole and I messed up the prone. Later on at Ft Hood I was able to upgrade that to expert.  |
| I never shot less than a 38 on Army ranges but I fudged. I always picked up unspent rounds around the firing positions that were left over from other troops doing SPORTS, etc. Those extra rounds gave me a buffer when I screwed up a target or had a malfunction. I hated the 300 meter targets that were against a wood line. They were hard to see when they popped up. The course of fire wasn't hard, the environment you were in made it challanging. |
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It is a great accomplishment for someone who never target fired weapons. However, one can expect to qualify expert on everything. My Hummer Scout platoon at Fort Drum had you qualify on everything. Since our Troop signed for the range, you had all the time in the world to qualify expert since we didn't have to support any other units. In short, your ass shot until you fired expert. The plus to this is more range time. Most of us kept shooting until the ammo ran out anyway. Everyone had to shoot expert and be technically proficient with the M16, 9mm, 50cal, M60, MK19, M203, and TOW. When I was PCSing, they started to shoot the 240c off the Blackhawks since we used the piss out of these birds in our squadron. Shoot what is in your inventory and off the platforms you use, mounted and dismounted, because you just never know. 
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with the A1's, it was almost impossible, with the a2's , it got easier, but still you had to work for it. shooting at the targets, prone unsupported, between 200 and 300 meters, was double tough; the targets were mighty small on those irons. Also , when they popped up two targets at a time- you usually had between 5 and 10 seconds to hit them, and you may get 1 target, on the left side, at 100, and the next target on the right, at 250. There were times when I completely did not even see the second pop up target until it was too late. So , I think you should be feeling allright about yourself if you did fire expert, 'cuz there was no guarantee you were going to do it every time, once you pulled it off once. |
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I have shot both the Army 300M pop-up course and KD in service rifle competition. The KD is more an execise in how to shoot and the pop-up is more an execise of when to shoot if your zero is good and your basic fundamentals are in place. IMHO all US ground forces should do both types along with CQB type shooting. CS |
You ended up shooting expert, and I am confident you don’t hold that moment up as one of your great achievements. Were you not instructed on the pop up BRM course in basic training? |
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Back 10 or 20 years ago or more you could "pencil whip" a pistol or rifle classification. I had the opportunity to shoot the qual course at Fort Benning in 2003. The whole system is computerized and prints out a report at the end of the firing. I'm sure they have problems with THAT as well, but overall I think most cheating has been eliminated.
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this is how it was with the M16A1 in 1993 at basic training when I was in the chair force, except you only needed 36 out of 40 "scaled" targets for expert. I got 35 |
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Qualification scores only tell part of the story, and heres why... The army qual is only moderately difficult to shoot expert, people who can shoot "good" to "gooder" to "goodest" will usually shoot expert. So I can hit a 300m target consistently ("good"). With irons, with a CCO, (and DUH) with an ACOG. My 25m groups are still the size of a half dollar. My TCs groups are much smaller, with all three holes touching each other, and his 100m ACOG groups are slightly smaller than my 25m groups (much "gooder"). Shooting the same score as him means little. some of the computerized ranges have issues. Ive shot targets on the "proper" 300m range that wouldnt go down. whether looking through my 4x ACOG shooting, or 12x binos as a safety, it is observable that it happens. rare im sure, and at "better" posts on ranges that are used by the real army (malone ranges at Ft. Benning for example) probably much rarer than Mississippi National Guard (Camp Shelby) facilities. some people can be great at shooting, but lousy at doing anything under any sort of time preassure. Im pretty good at shooting, but the first time i ever qualed I missed the 50 rights and the 100 (The Drill Seargent decided right there that I was the dumbest private to ever shoot expert). I got better with experience, most do. but that shows an element that has less to do with marksmanship and more to do with working under preassure. shooting with all my gear on, I cant seen to get my corrective eyewear between me and my irons. I somehow still manage to shoot expert with uncorrected 20/50 vision. This is inexplicable. some peoples body armor and kevlar fit better than others. being comfortable makes a huge difference. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - army expert qualification (Page 1 of 2)
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