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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - ballistic tip ammo (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 4/17/2008 5:04:20 AM EDT
| are ballistic tip bullets such as black hills 60 grain v-max good for self defense in a 1 in 9 twist barrel |
As noted in the AMMO FAQ, tacked to the top of the Ammunition Forum most 223 balllistic tip ammo lacks the ability to reach the preferred penetration depths of self-defense ammo - please go there and read the Faq which will cover all your AR15 SD ammunition questions.... mike |
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I would not hesistate to use it. Sure it penetrates only 9 inches in gelatin, but 12 inch metric is there for taking 'bad' shot angles into account. The wound channel created by the explosive projectile is scary... even if is 'only 9 inches', we are talking about a football size cone of shredded tissue. I saw a Bobcat that was hit with one at a weird quartering angle and it looked like it was hit with a mini-grenade. BTs are used by tons of agencies; some on this board are issued them. Through all my discussions I have with as many people as I have who are issued BTs, no one ever complains. |
People are really soft compared to game animals. However, heavy clothig can create a layered affect that theoretically could emulate a game animal's tougher hide. Coupled with the possibility of hitting bone, the V-Max is not an ideal choice for self defense. That's why Hornady makes the A-Max. The odds of a V-Max exploding on the surface and not reaching the vitals is pretty remote, but it's like picking a Colt for self defense over a Vulcan. 90% of the time, the Vulcan will work perfectly. 90% of the time a V-Max will get the job done. What are the consequenses for the other 10%? |
I hear you and your logic is correct, however, in a defensive situation I am not going to fire a single round; if something is worth shooting, it is worth shooting again. ETA: I think the Amax is for other calibers. |
HAAAANNG ON A SECOND. "That's why Hornady makes the AMAX." HUH? Last I checked, Hornady doesn't load any Amax in .223. They make a 75 AMAX for competition but it will not fit in an AR magazine loaded. You may want to check your facts. If you are talking about the larger calibers, I don't know. But we are talking about .223 / 5.56 here. The TAP is loaded with the 75 BTHP. Different bullet completely. That is bullet is recommended for SD. I kind of agree with both sides on this. I've heard people take deer with this round. I bet it would probably work very well in most self defense scenarios. Especially if the intended target wasn't wearing thick clothing. But I also agree that there are better choices for self defense. I also agree with Chewbacca that a lot of agencies use the lighter bullets and say they work. But when I first came on this board I got flamed for this way of thinking from the ammo experts and I will actually admit, they know more than I. It is probably better to pick the heavier BTHP's for SD or something else. Even the 64 Soft points I believe are better. |
A-Max comes in 52, 75 and 80gn, the latter two being very long. My point was they make A-Max in .224 because people still use .224 caliber cartridges to hunt medium game, and V-Max isn't built for that kind of work. They A-Max has a heavier jacket for more controlled expansion. That's the fact. |
Ive shot deer with M193 and M855 (I couldnt tell any difference) I ve shot a Deer with a 22magnum It drop dead on the spot! Sometimes it depends on the DEER Some might take a few hits while others need only 1 hit |
I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure they brand the AMAX as a competition bullet. Not hunting. You'd have to shoot the 75 or 80 1 at a time out of an AR or in a bolt gun. Most .223 bolt guns on the markets twist would probably not be fast enough at least for the 80. A 1/9 may stabalize the 75. And the 52 may be on the light side for deer. Maybe not. But as I said, I don't think that is how they brand it. It doesn't say on their website, but I'm going by my memory from a catalog I have. |
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We use the Fed TRU 55 grain BT as our duty ammo. If you look on the Federal LE page they show the bullet's performance with several barriers from a 14.5" M4. The 55 BT frags well and still has decent penetration. It's a good choice as an anti-personnel round. We had used the 55 grain "Game King" BTHP which is also a good choice. |
"Good" by whose definition? There is ONE pic on the Federal LE website which shows a tiny fragment reaching 12". Several other tests run by Federal showed more like 9" of penetration. |
Usually that tiny fragment is the thick copper base, if it hit ANYTHING, it probably would stop there. Gelatin is not people. I will say though that I have never seen a failure of ballistic tip ammo when used in an OIS unless barriers were involved. On another note, I am going to stoke a PMAG with Federal Tactical 62gr Bonded and call it a day :) |
This is where this always goes. I'm not saying Zhukov your wrong. I'm just pointing this out. It is something that will never end. I would think that in a lot of situations, it is probably "good enough". But I would admit that there are some that it would probably not prove ideal. The question is, do those happen enough to matter, if at all? |
If there is a right or wrong with regard to this subject, I'm w/ Zhuk here and you minimal penetration folks are dead wrong; the prinicpal difference between our side and yours being "ONCE" is one too many times for this to happen in our opinions. Murphy is a real bastard as anyone who has reviewed the after-action report on the 1968 FBI Miami shootout can well attest. Minimal penetration rounds cost lives. mike |
I only have one definition. It was the medical examiner who received the body of our last guy shot with that ammo. He described it like this. "The wound was so bad that you could've put him on the operating table and then shot him. There was nothing they could have done to save him". The guy was hit in the liver and went down instantly. I know only one anecdotal story is minimal but I've killed a few of these small Texas deer with that round and it seemed to work well for a .223. I though we wanted some decent fragmentation???? We are using a 16" barrel and get more velocity...maybe. In any case, I HAVE to use THAT round!!! |
Mick: A shot to the liver with a fragmenting bullet - even with a low-penetrating round - will be absolutely devastating and I have no problems believing what your M.E. said. But how many other sub-standard wounds would have been just as devastating? First and foremost, it's SHOT PLACEMENT. Since this is the ammo forum, I usually concentrate more on the performance of the ammo, but the latter is a MUCH smaller component of a successful shoot and it's important to keep that in mind. You're limited to this round, and the decision has been made by someone in your line of command without adequate knowledge of wound ballistics. That's a damn shame in my opinion. Just to reiterate one other point: Wound ballistics isn't a black-and-white area. Just because one bullet penetrates to 11.9" doesn't make it useless. In the shades of gray that encompass bullet performance, the 55gr BST is good, but there's better. It doesn't mean that I'd want to get shot with the BST, but if your life depends on it, you'd want to stick with a bullet that you can count on to perform even in less than ideal conditions. |
This answer is much more pallatable than Mr.Wilson. Mr.Wilson, I did not hear that in the North Hollywood shootout that any of the .223 rounds were the problem. The problem was with all the pistol packing units and shotguns with lack of patrol rifles until swat showed up. I wonder what swat was using for their round then? I don't know. Maybe it was surplus. But your point is a red herring. It's not addressing .223 bullets. If you notice I said "IF ANY". Meaning, has there been an instance in any action somewhere that the ballistic tip bullets have found to be lacking. Maybe there has. I don't know. Yes, pick the best thing. For me, having anything is better than nothing. I even use FMJ in most of my pistols. Why? Because #1 I don't believe that HP's are always everything they claim to be. #2 they have a tenancy to feed more reliably, even though the pistols I have seem to do OK with HP's. But I don't shoot them as much. #3, Up in the north, people wear alot of clothing in the winter. You say, well your #3 proves you should use a better .223 bullet. Again, I'm talking pistols. I have yet to hear of an instance where a ballistic tip didn't do something really bad to somebody and work pretty quickly. I'm not an expert though, admittedly, and if Fackler and Zhukov and all those guys have that kind of info, I'll have to bow to there experience. I just don't remember reading any info on it from any of those guys. But there is probably a reason why they came up with the lists they have. ETA: The Miami shoot out I think is the same deal. Pistols and shotguns were the problem, not .223's. Didn't the bad guys have .223 in that one? |
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JJREA: Here's another way of thinking about it. Let's say that the success rate (sounds more palatable than "one shot stop" ) with 55gr BST is X, then I'm claiming that using, say, a 75gr OTM is X+Y. Now the question is obviously, what it "Y"? I don't know, and I don't know if it'll ever be known. But the predicted performance of the 75gr OTM is such that Y > 0, and even if miniscule, it's worth using. In regards to your statement of using FMJ in pistol ammo - be aware that it will grossly over-penetrate, making it much more likely that a bullet might hit an innocent bystander. While you do have to deal with heavy clothing up North, today's premier hollowpoints do work extremely well - they expand reliably to almost twice their initial diameter, and that expansion also limits their penetration to a reasonable level. |
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JJREA - Read my post above w/ regard to the FBI standard for bullet penetration and hear this clearly - minimum penetration rounds (those that don't meet the FBI specification of 12-18") costs lives - makes no never mind what caliber or firearm we are speaking of at all here. The FBI Miami shootout would have been stopped and agents that got killed that day would have went home to their wives and children had ALL of the FBI shooters been using rounds that day that met the 12-18 minumum penetration depth requirement. Extensive study and testing proved this and the FBI changed to the 10mm caliber because of it. These facts are not in dispute. You stated (as appears you forgot) basically "so what does it matter IF the BTs don't make the minimum" which is a primary and fundamental difference in philosophy between us here in this thread. You are wrong - it does matter and if you don't think so, just ask the wives of those that died that day in 1968. mike |
Not true. AMAX was developed to be as accurate as HPBT Match bullets, but with better termninal performance. It is built like the VMAX with a thicker jacket for more controlled expansion and deeper penetration. It was developed in the larger calibers first, then they added .224 later to give hunters and Tactical teams that use .223 bolt guns a better choice. HPBT Match is notorious for not penetrating ridged barriers liek glass reliably, or having the tip "collapse" and not expanding at all on soft targets. |
In my limited 28 years of Police work with 20 years in firearms training I have heard most of the stories about the "Miami Incident". The pistol rounds fired were the scapegoat for the bad tactics & I have heard this repeatedly for years. the shooter with The .223 rifle was hit with a 9mm Silvertip that did it's job as intended. It hit an artery and worked as designed. The shot placement could have been better BUT I don't think I will even try to armchair quarterback someone who has returned fire in a firefight! Do the best you can with what you have... A27257 |
Maybe you're right. I still disagree but I will admit I could be wrong. But my last post is my reasoning behind it and seems sound. But again I admit, maybe you know something I don't. |
As I said before, in both of those shootings, .223's weren't the culprit on not working properly. From what I understand. I see what you're saying, but what I'm saying is that I wonder if there really ever has been a time when a lighter than optimal ballistic tip .223 bullet fired in an action has ever not done what it was supposed to. You don't seem to be addressing that issue. Yes, the FBI minimum is a good thing. But that requirement came about after that shooting, when as I said, the .223 wasn't the failure. Whatever bullet was used. |
I don't think I've ever heard that about AMAX. HPBT was never INTENDED to be used for self-defense, but the fragmenting properties make it so. The tip collapsing and the bullets not expanding in soft targets is incorrect. HPBT rounds FRAGMENT instead of expanding. But none of these rounds are good for barrier penetration. You'll have to use a bonded core bullet or quality SP for that role in .223. |
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Zhukov Man looking at the WIN ranger HANDGUN AMMO gel testing those BONDED Bullets can pentrate very very deep! Man the Steel/Metal Plate penetration was alot deeper than I would of thought Do you think like the 147gr boned 9mm can penetrate more than a 115gr FMJ like WIN USA LOAD sorry off topic 
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While I agree for the most part with gel testing, there are gray areas. These gray areas become more profound when there are people that have actually shot people with these rounds and claim absolutely devastating effects. A few years back, I had the luxury of working at Gunsite for 4 months as an intern. There, not only did I get to train with a diverse group of different types of professionals, but I had countless discussions with as many as I could who have actually been in a shooting(s). One course where I was a role player, was a Tac-Med course; the instructor was a SWAT medic from a major metropolitan area (don't remember). His team is issued ballistic tip ammo, though he did not mention the specific load. He commented on the many shootings he has seen over his career and he claimed that the lethality of the BTs was the best he has ever seen, with very nasty wound channels. One thing that stuck out in my mind specifically, is when he said that a bad guy got hit with two rounds in the chest at close range and he said the rounds made a soccer ball size wound channel; he said the chest cavity was ground beef. Granted, everything is all anecdotal, but it is interesting nonetheless to hear about it first hand. |
But the question still stands, do the agencies find that it is lacking in the not so front on shots? I'm sure there is info and stats on this, but I'm not privy to it. I think that Roberts and Fackler have probably been through that and maybe found it to be true. Which is probably why they recommend the more penetrating stuff. But this argument has always came down to this. Is "y" as Zhukov puts it, really necessary. Or will X just do fine, all the time. Then again, it seems that there are times when even the heavier bthp rounds aren't the best either. Like say through car windows and barriers. Then you're better with the bonded bullets but they don't do as much damage when it's just the soft target. There is always a trade off. DocGKR always said a .308 155 amax or 150 NBT was better at all of it any day than any of the AR rounds. But because the AR and probably even the mini are more popular, not too many .308's are carried as patrol rifles and the point is moot. So supposedly even they are a compromise. But then again, the less penetration of the .223 is sometimes a good thing. Personally, I don't see any perfect answer. Which is why I've never always felt I've had to have the "best". Shot placement trumps all. IMHO. FWIW, when I have a carbine by my bed, it's stoked with the 68's. But I would not feel weird with M193 or M855. Or probably most anything else I have in that caliber. |
| We can argue about this until we're blue in the face, but the fact remains that 12-18" is the recommended ideal penetration. Since most of us have plenty of time and opportunity to select a round which meets that criteria, it would make sense to pick one that does, and not one that might be "good enough". |
I myself am buying 40 rounds of LE223T3 and loading it in my SHTF mag. I would rather know that NO MATTER WHAT! I am putting a .35-.5" hole through whatever I am aiming at. |
How do you view that? |
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rapidshare.com/files/109701422/FBI_Defensive_Systems_Unit_Ballistic_Research_Facility_FBIAcademy.pdf.html Click Free Wait for the count down put in the funny letters download the pdf |
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Guys, one more thing about the 1986 FBI Miami gun battle: I have seen arguments going back and forth regarding bullets that penetrate less than 12" and discussion of how a rifle bullet that fails to penetrate 12" will still be much more effective than a handgun round that fails to penetrate 12". Folks, 12" of penetration is still 12", regardless of whether you are using a rifle, a pistol or a shotgun. The 9mm STHP bullet one of the FBI agents fired into one of the bad guys penetrated roughly 10", going by memory of the AAR. That bullet, had it gone just a couple of inches farther before stopping would have ruptured the bad guy's Aorta. If that had happened, he would have been down in a matter of seconds. He would not have been up walking around, going on the offensive and maneuvering against the FBI agents. And there would have been at least 1 agent who went home to his family that day rather than taking a trip to the morgue in a plastic bag. The question I have here is what difference does it make if it is a rifle bullet, a pistol bullet or a ball of buck shot? If it doesn't penetrate deeply enough in some circumstances to reach the vitals, then it is going to fail to quickly stop some of these bad guys who have the will to continue fighting. If a .223 bullet had taken the exact same path as the FBI agent's Silver Tip Hollow Point 9mm slug had taken and stopped at the same exact spot, then there is nothing suggesting it would have taken him out of the fight any better or any faster. There was simply nothing in the path of that STHP in the 10" of travel that would have caused the guy to immediately cease function (CNS hit) or rapidly bleed out. However, had that been a Speer 124 gr +P Gold Dot, a Winchester Ranger 147 gr or some of the other modern JHPs on the market that meet the minimum FBI penetration standards, that guy would have had a ruptured Aorta and gone down almost instantaneously due to quick and massive blood loss. This simply can't be disputed. That is why the FBI came out with those new standards, to make sure that their ammo was capable of penetrating deep enough to hit critical structures regardless of the angle of the shot. So knowing this, why would any reasonable, thinking adult who has a choice in the matter elect to carry bullets that may penetrate deep enough 90% of the time (55 gr BTHP's, 55 gr ballistic tips, etc) when they can just as easily and just as cost effectively obtain 68 or 75 gr OTM match loads that fragment with the same devastating effect in humans, but will reach minimum penetration standards nearly 100% of the time? Folks, if you THINK, the answer should be apparent. Don't buy ammo with the best possible scenarios as your guide (straight in frontal shot to the chest) because the bad guy likely isn't going to just stand around and present himself as a nice silhouette target for you. If he is smart, he'll be moving and using cover. Therefore you need a bullet that will also work in the less than ideal scenarios. Stay safe. -CH |
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After hearing Chewbacca's anecdotal story from Gunsite and dealing with our own history about BTs, I started asking other agencies about their choice of ammo selection. The BTs are fairly popular with the LE community because of that fragmentation. One agency was using 40 grain TAP because their chief feared overpenetration but the COLT guy who works them kept swearing by 55 grain bullets. So they showed the Chief a test with 1 gallon jugs of water in front of paper targets. The 55 BTs failed to get to the target after destroying the water jug where their pistol ammo went through both. They got their 55 BTs but will NOT get anything heavier. For a better penetrating round they got the Fed TRU 55 grain bonded bullet BUT only when they know they are up against a barrier. We could argue this point all day and apparently have already. The bottom line here is that some of us work in densly populated areas and are not going to get anything with decent penetration according to the FBI stats. The few anecdotal stories I have heard give the BTs a good reputation with LE agencies. If you don't have to worry about politics, you can carry what you want but will have to deal with any civil litigation for overpenetration or whatever.... There won't be any ZOMBIES to shoot any time soon and when the SHTF like it did in Louisiana during Katrina, they will be coming to confiscate your guns. |
Overpenetration concerns pale in comparison to "missed all-togather" concerns in my book. |
It seems so simple Buy the better ammo my mag are Loaded with a 75gr OTM I got Soft points in my STASH but I DOUGHT I WILL BE SHOOTING GLASS,CAR DOORS I'm a Civi  |
Everyone who skimmed over this should read it... a latteral shot through the upper arm and into the chest cavity needs 12" of penetration and is why the FBI has a 12" minimum penetration standard. Failure to penetrate 12" cost a life and gave the suspect time to reload, make a charge with the Mini 14, shoot the agents, and get into the driver's seat of their car. |
That is a very conflicting report. So how many 223 rounds ACTUALLY hit the victim and where? One in the ankle, one in the hip, but ehn where? If it is impossible for 40cal rounds to fully expand and only penetrate 1", what the hell happened? Bottom line, that ppt presentation does not make any sense. Unless I TOTALLY missed something, which is possible cause I have been reading ALL day long today. ETA: At the end of the ppt is says the 40 performed as gel tests projected and the 223 didn't not. But the 40 bullets penetrated 1"? How the hell does that makes sense. Also, I see they said the bad guy was hit 16 times with the 223, both 55 BT ammo and 75 TAP (which is supposed to be the best round out there) and the rounds all went through the body without any fragmentation. This is the exact opposite of gelatin results. But then they said the bad guy only went down when he was hit with the 223??? Again, this ppt is the most confusing, unclear presentation I have ever read. I think the only thing that can be deduced from that read is: gel tests do not equal street results. |
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None of the .223 hits (somewhere around 16-17) did NOT fragment unless they hit bone,in this case his hip. He was killed by a .223 which severed his aorta which did not fragment. It says .223 despite mfg claims did not perform as expected. Again emphasis that shot placement is everything |
So is this then called anecdotal? It's hard to imagine none of them expanding. I didn't get to read the link though, so I can't fully understand what it says. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - ballistic tip ammo (Page 1 of 2)
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