AR Sponsor
Posted: 3/6/2015 2:38:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: tweeter][Edited]
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Ya'll have heard of snipers having a dope book, service rifle shooters have data books, reloaders have build books.
The commonality here is: recording information. How in-depth can (or should) a new shooter get when they start recording data? Well, that's easy... write down all that stuff that you learn about the gun... and yourself. I have a data book on all my guns, pages of information on all my ammo development, all sorts o' published shit on long-range theory, effects on external ballistics characteristics of... all sorts of stuff. But what about a new shooter? Plato said "Know thyself" and to this end I say, just fucking do it. You got a new sight? Cool, if it's got a particular method of adjustment... write it down. quick example: Let's say you just got a brand-new TA01 ACOG, well... that adjusts 2 inches per-click at 100 yards. If it's something you think you'll need to refer to a lot, go ahead and write it down. Let's also say that you want to determine distance without any exyternal devices, measure (with a device) 100 yards/meters and then pace it off by counting every-other step. Now you can measure distance (roughly) without an LRF or tape or measuring wheel or anything, just a number and your two feet. Write that down too. Mil-reticle confusing or hard to remember? Draw one out and write all the measurements so you can refer to it. Keep forgetting what wind-value looks like? Write that shit out or even draw it. Whatever you have to do to retain that information. Do you find yourself having to continually explain how minute-of angle or bore-offset works? Do you have a hard time remembering how it works? Draw that shit too. It's arts and crafts time bitches, get a coloring book out and have a blast. Here's what I use. I don't have a name for it, it's just a small notebook that has a lot of random shit I use to help me teach others or retain for myself. Its not a three-ring binder, just a 3x5 notebook. It's not pretty, it just works. While it's a way, it's not the only way. Find what works for you and run with it. Some example pages: explaining bore offset: 
basic mil-dot reticle: 
notes on an EOTech: 
more notes on the same sight: 
basic sight adjustment notes: 
TA31 reticle for reference: 
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the more you know, the less you have to carry.
Some people just wanna watch the world burn.
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| For every rifle and round Congo I have now I keep a page for my cold shot. There are a bunch of names for it but I try to recreate it especially so with my precision guns. I have a bunch of data for cold shot at 100 yards. Knowing cold data may very well be the most important thing you can find for any gun as it is likely the first shot you pick up and shoot will be the most important whether you are a hunter or a super elite sniper. Write it down and keep it running over time you will learn a pattern and shooting is all about identify and using consistency found in patterns. |
And just like that we were whole again...And there was much jubilation.
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Well if my handwriting looked half as good as yours...
Everyone tells me it looks like a third graders; we don't use pens much nowadays. |
"The media's belief that AR-15 owners are a bunch of white, Christian right-wing nut jobs could be easily cured by a week of reading GD over breakfast."
| Tweeter I think you are double shotting your latte. Keep it up dude this is good shit...need to drive some tacks into these threads or have a Tweeter thread you can add to . I do all the things you talk about but it's refreshing to get someone else's perspective. |
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?"
That's NORTH Dakota, BTW
Wear the fox hat.
Give me two packages of condoms.
Would you like a paper bag with those?
Nah, she ain't that ugly.
That's NORTH Dakota, BTW
Wear the fox hat.
Give me two packages of condoms.
Would you like a paper bag with those?
Nah, she ain't that ugly.
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Originally Posted By tbougie1:
Tweeter I think you are double shotting your latte... I don't sleep... gotta do something to pass the time. (you can blame Nick for dragging several of us in here) And... please don't tack this. The point is to have a discussion. It should evolve. Ideas that remain static are all too-often announced as written in stone, then newer and better ideas have a more difficult time surviving and making progress where they should. Attack an idea objectively, see if it survives. If it does... then it deserves to live. |
the more you know, the less you have to carry.
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Wow! Did you go to Catholic school? The nuns would have loved you You might have the potential for a good book there. Tiger McGee basically sold his note books. |
ARs are designed to fight humans, shotguns are designed to fight ducks.-RustedAce
You never know when you'll end up at the beach or the gun range-Gina Grad
You never know when you'll end up at the beach or the gun range-Gina Grad
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Originally Posted By Aimless:
Wow! Did you go to Catholic school? The nuns would have loved you You might have the potential for a good book there. Tiger McGee basically sold his note books. My Dad, wife, students, and co-workers all want me to write a book. I don't know if I want to though. |
the more you know, the less you have to carry.
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Great point about cold shots. I need to work that data up for my hunting rifle.
A guy I shot a match with was just pasting his targets into a regular notebook and making any notes he need right there. I find the simpler I make a task, the more likely I am to do it. I thought that process pretty well stripped it down while preserving the most important data. |
Some people just wanna watch the world burn.
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Originally Posted By cttb:
Great point about cold shots. I need to work that data up for my hunting rifle. A guy I shot a match with was just pasting his targets into a regular notebook and making any notes he need right there. I find the simpler I make a task, the more likely I am to do it. I thought that process pretty well stripped it down while preserving the most important data. Simple goes to a point. Simple is not always useful and you have to see the use in something to do it and then to really use it. Someone putting target cut outs onto pages won't necessarily go back and look at them or use the data that comes from them. The book should go with the rifle. It should be protected from water. The saddest thing in this kind of work is to have work done in pencil on lined paper and the smallest bit of rail or moisture wipes it clean. Impact data books makes awesome stuff and the price you pay for one comes back to you really quickly out of the hits you will be getting that would otherwise be misses. For my 6.5 guns a miss costs me about a dollar for high grade 5.56 maybe 50 cents per and cheap stuff is maybe 30 cents. Misses cost you money and not learning from misses means you just wasted that money. I like the way tony shows the book here. The big thing is to take it slow with an AR and try to do the tracking for a while to see what you can gain. You can do it with a string of shots but you don't really know which shots were your 'fliers' and which ones were good. Any way you do it having some base line data information from the sheets is a good thing and premade books that you can adjust are really really worth the money. 
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And just like that we were whole again...And there was much jubilation.
Dayyyyumnnn thats an ugly ass thumb! 
Good info tweeter, I like this new "series" you guys are making, if you will. Makes the AR Basics forum ALOT more valuable for new shooters. I do the same with recording data that I feel is important. Can't tell you how many times I was "happy I wrote that down" |
In the absence of a plan, move toward the sound of gunfire and kill everything.
If it aint a clone or the gun being cloned, it aint shit.
If it aint a clone or the gun being cloned, it aint shit.
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Ah great idea. Totally forgot about range books.
I don't have any real precision guns so I don't have a need for super indepth records at this point. But once I finally get around to that bolt gun... As of right now I most just write down the gun, the brand etc, serial number and what it is zeroed with and at what distance and what sights. After that I update it with each outing with the round count and types of ammo used. If I make a modification to the gun, add a part change a part etc. If anything particular stood out. Overall Preformance of the gun and ammo if I'm shooting groups. If a malfunction occurs I can see if anything lead up to it. What ammo the gun likes. Like I know my 10/22 loves 36gr CCI mini mags and hates 36gr Winchester (at least iirc). This has been more helpful with handguns for me. I had a sig that got sent back to the factory twice in 3 weeks brand new. Lots of notes, round counts and ammo detailing what was happening. And Tweeter, is that a green menurandom pad? I grabbed a bunch of those when I got out and when I ran out I typed in the NSN and found where I could order more
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Originally Posted By tweeter: explaining bore offset: Your penmanship is fantastic, but your "bore off-set" diagram is incorrect. The bore-line does not run parallel to the line-of-sight. Attached File Courtesy of zrxc77. .... |
All that is necessary for Trolls to flourish, is for good men to do nothing.
In God We Trust. Everyone else must post data.
In God We Trust. Everyone else must post data.
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Originally Posted By Molon:
Your penmanship is fantastic, but your "bore off-set" diagram is incorrect. The bore-line does not run parallel to the line-of-sight. https://app.box.com/shared/static/vm2nmr2buk5mq7z2qm7qeq1x5xcnydwn.jpg Courtesy of zrxc77. .... Originally Posted By Molon:
Originally Posted By tweeter:
explaining bore offset: http://i1060.photobucket.com/albums/t457/dead-drop/Page%201_zpsymot2uox.jpg Your penmanship is fantastic, but your "bore off-set" diagram is incorrect. The bore-line does not run parallel to the line-of-sight. https://app.box.com/shared/static/vm2nmr2buk5mq7z2qm7qeq1x5xcnydwn.jpg Courtesy of zrxc77. .... I have a copy of that as well. What you saw is a tool I use to explain with the sights set at parallel to the bore, a sight that is not zeroed. I have another for a zeroed sight at a distant target, and yet another for a close target. I uh, deal with students... they need drawings. But you guys do have me thinking about doing a shooting coloring book. It would be both fun and informative. I explain the drawing to the student, it's not really meant to stand on it's own. I just made the drawing because I got tired of sketching in the dirt for folks that need an explanation of how the sights work with a bullet travelling from the bore. |
the more you know, the less you have to carry.
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Originally Posted By tweeter: I have a copy of that as well. What you saw is a tool I use to explain with the sights set at parallel to the bore. I have another for a zeroed sight at a distant target, and yet another for a close target. I uh, deal with students... they need drawings. But you guys do have me thinking about doing a shooting coloring book. It would be both fun and informative. Originally Posted By tweeter: Originally Posted By Molon: Originally Posted By tweeter: explaining bore offset: http://i1060.photobucket.com/albums/t457/dead-drop/Page%201_zpsymot2uox.jpg Your penmanship is fantastic, but your "bore off-set" diagram is incorrect. The bore-line does not run parallel to the line-of-sight. https://app.box.com/shared/static/vm2nmr2buk5mq7z2qm7qeq1x5xcnydwn.jpg Courtesy of zrxc77. .... I have a copy of that as well. What you saw is a tool I use to explain with the sights set at parallel to the bore. I have another for a zeroed sight at a distant target, and yet another for a close target. I uh, deal with students... they need drawings. But you guys do have me thinking about doing a shooting coloring book. It would be both fun and informative. With your skills, you should do something along the lines of the Vietnam era M16 comic-manual . . . Attached File .... |
All that is necessary for Trolls to flourish, is for good men to do nothing.
In God We Trust. Everyone else must post data.
In God We Trust. Everyone else must post data.
|
Originally Posted By Molon:...
With your skills, you should do something along the lines of the Vietnam era M16 comic-manual . . . https://app.box.com/shared/static/emiedwl7gobcx5fj3hztvsfbzfkw79ai.jpg .... Maybe a pop-up book, where you pull a tab and watch the bolt cycle... like that. |
the more you know, the less you have to carry.
Some people just wanna watch the world burn.
Joined:
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Posts:
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EE: 100% (104)
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Originally Posted By Molon:
With your skills, you should do something along the lines of the Vietnam era M16 comic-manual . . . https://app.box.com/shared/static/emiedwl7gobcx5fj3hztvsfbzfkw79ai.jpg .... Originally Posted By Molon:
Originally Posted By tweeter:
Originally Posted By Molon:
Originally Posted By tweeter:
explaining bore offset: http://i1060.photobucket.com/albums/t457/dead-drop/Page%201_zpsymot2uox.jpg Your penmanship is fantastic, but your "bore off-set" diagram is incorrect. The bore-line does not run parallel to the line-of-sight. https://app.box.com/shared/static/vm2nmr2buk5mq7z2qm7qeq1x5xcnydwn.jpg Courtesy of zrxc77. .... I have a copy of that as well. What you saw is a tool I use to explain with the sights set at parallel to the bore. I have another for a zeroed sight at a distant target, and yet another for a close target. I uh, deal with students... they need drawings. But you guys do have me thinking about doing a shooting coloring book. It would be both fun and informative. With your skills, you should do something along the lines of the Vietnam era M16 comic-manual . . . https://app.box.com/shared/static/emiedwl7gobcx5fj3hztvsfbzfkw79ai.jpg .... You say Vietnam era but they look the exact same today. |
And just like that we were whole again...And there was much jubilation.
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Originally Posted By nickforney:
You say Vietnam era but they look the exact same today. Originally Posted By nickforney:
Originally Posted By Molon:
Originally Posted By tweeter:
Originally Posted By Molon:
Originally Posted By tweeter:
explaining bore offset: http://i1060.photobucket.com/albums/t457/dead-drop/Page%201_zpsymot2uox.jpg Your penmanship is fantastic, but your "bore off-set" diagram is incorrect. The bore-line does not run parallel to the line-of-sight. https://app.box.com/shared/static/vm2nmr2buk5mq7z2qm7qeq1x5xcnydwn.jpg Courtesy of zrxc77. .... I have a copy of that as well. What you saw is a tool I use to explain with the sights set at parallel to the bore. I have another for a zeroed sight at a distant target, and yet another for a close target. I uh, deal with students... they need drawings. But you guys do have me thinking about doing a shooting coloring book. It would be both fun and informative. With your skills, you should do something along the lines of the Vietnam era M16 comic-manual . . . https://app.box.com/shared/static/emiedwl7gobcx5fj3hztvsfbzfkw79ai.jpg .... You say Vietnam era but they look the exact same today. I think the sweet 16 comic/manual came out in 1968, that's prob what he meant by Vietnam era |
In the absence of a plan, move toward the sound of gunfire and kill everything.
If it aint a clone or the gun being cloned, it aint shit.
If it aint a clone or the gun being cloned, it aint shit.
Some people just wanna watch the world burn.
Joined:
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Posts:
8148
EE: 100% (104)
IA, USA
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Originally Posted By MILSPEC556:
I think the sweet 16 comic/manual came out in 1968, that's prob what he meant by Vietnam era Oh sure Im just saying Preventative maintenance pamphlets are sitting at your QC or armorers desk today that are in the exact same style its pretty cool. PS magazine 60 years here |
And just like that we were whole again...And there was much jubilation.
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Here is a whole mess of data sheets you can look through.
Sniper Data Sheets From This thread |
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Originally Posted By BillyDoubleU:
Here is a whole mess of data sheets you can look through. Sniper Data Sheets From This thread Data sheets are great and all but the ones that are most valuable are the ones you never see in the sexy sniper data books. Rounds fired (to include type/weight), record of cleaning, and record of maintenance. I always just sorta put my own data books together, never really found a commercial one that worked well for me. |
the more you know, the less you have to carry.
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Originally Posted By tweeter: Data sheets are great and all but the ones that are most valuable are the ones you never see in the sexy sniper data books. Rounds fired (to include type/weight), Originally Posted By tweeter: Originally Posted By BillyDoubleU: Here is a whole mess of data sheets you can look through. Sniper Data Sheets From This thread Data sheets are great and all but the ones that are most valuable are the ones you never see in the sexy sniper data books. Rounds fired (to include type/weight), This is where computers shine . . . Attached File Attached File Attached File .... |
All that is necessary for Trolls to flourish, is for good men to do nothing.
In God We Trust. Everyone else must post data.
In God We Trust. Everyone else must post data.
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Originally Posted By Molon:
This is where computers shine . . . https://app.box.com/shared/static/eh1n6jktf1ixfvbtoc37h8n30ixjpbsc.jpg .... Originally Posted By Molon:
Originally Posted By tweeter:
Originally Posted By BillyDoubleU:
Here is a whole mess of data sheets you can look through. Sniper Data Sheets From This thread Data sheets are great and all but the ones that are most valuable are the ones you never see in the sexy sniper data books. Rounds fired (to include type/weight), This is where computers shine . . . https://app.box.com/shared/static/eh1n6jktf1ixfvbtoc37h8n30ixjpbsc.jpg .... I'm still wary of putting stuff on computers in cash a crash. Anything I want to make sure I keep I hand write. And like Tweeter mentioned, the fancy sheets were what someone else wanted for their data sheets. It's good to see what others did so you know how to set up what you might want initially. Then as with anything else, the more experience you get you'll know what it is you want in your book. |
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Originally Posted By BillyDoubleU:
I'm still wary of putting stuff on computers in cash a crash. Anything I want to make sure I keep I hand write. Originally Posted By BillyDoubleU:
Originally Posted By Molon:
Originally Posted By tweeter:
Originally Posted By BillyDoubleU:
Here is a whole mess of data sheets you can look through. Sniper Data Sheets From This thread Data sheets are great and all but the ones that are most valuable are the ones you never see in the sexy sniper data books. Rounds fired (to include type/weight), This is where computers shine . . . https://app.box.com/shared/static/eh1n6jktf1ixfvbtoc37h8n30ixjpbsc.jpg .... I'm still wary of putting stuff on computers in cash a crash. Anything I want to make sure I keep I hand write. Two easy solutions: 1. Back-up hard-drives, CDs, DVDs, flash-drives, etc 2. Simply print-out each new "page" and keep all the paper documents in a binder |
All that is necessary for Trolls to flourish, is for good men to do nothing.
In God We Trust. Everyone else must post data.
In God We Trust. Everyone else must post data.
|
Originally Posted By Molon: Your penmanship is fantastic, but your "bore off-set" diagram is incorrect. The bore-line does not run parallel to the line-of-sight. https://app.box.com/shared/static/vm2nmr2buk5mq7z2qm7qeq1x5xcnydwn.jpg Courtesy of zrxc77. .... Originally Posted By Molon: Originally Posted By tweeter: explaining bore offset: http://i1060.photobucket.com/albums/t457/dead-drop/Page%201_zpsymot2uox.jpg Your penmanship is fantastic, but your "bore off-set" diagram is incorrect. The bore-line does not run parallel to the line-of-sight. https://app.box.com/shared/static/vm2nmr2buk5mq7z2qm7qeq1x5xcnydwn.jpg Courtesy of zrxc77. ....  |
living well is the best revenge!
ETERNAL R & R my brothers
CPT Ritz,
SSG Epps,
SSG Ortiz,
LTC Rennie Cory Jr...
ETERNAL R & R my brothers
CPT Ritz,
SSG Epps,
SSG Ortiz,
LTC Rennie Cory Jr...
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Your index finger.
Yeah, that digit that directly effects the performance of your bullet placement. I see a lot of shooters that don't know how to determine their trigger finger position So, here goes.. I know what you're thinking, it's there... I use it to pull the trigger, how hard can it be? Not very, but because it's easy... means it's easy to mess up. Not to point fingers (see what I did there?) but a lot of people dork it up. What I mean is: you can learn to deliberately, thoughtfully (with thought), and consistently optimize your finger with some simple self-investigation. First, some anatomy: that bone at the tips of your finger is called the distal phalanx. No, it's not a Roman army formation, it's your finger tip. Show of hands, does anyone know what shape that typically is? Here's a picture: 
That middle digit, that's the evil middle phalanx, stay away from him. He's from the wrong side of the tracks and will get you mixed up with the wrong sort of people. Mother would not approve. But everyone is different and slight variations in anatomy occur, so there are a few exercises you can use to determine your individual finger(tip). There's a few ways to determine trigger placement, I'll cover two. The first: take a round pen (smaller than your finger diameter) and use the round side of the pen to press it against your fingertip. Use enough pressure so you can feel the bone underneath. Now, slowly roll it towards you, until you feel the pen start to rise. Now, refer back to the drawing, that's the base of your distal phalanx. Rolling the pen away from you until it gets lower, that's the end of your distal phalanx. It might rise a little, that's OK, it doesn't mean you have a disease. It's normal. Find a nice flat spot in the middle, put your trigger there. If you look in the drawing the tip is kinda curved, you're looking for the middle of that curve. This method is especially useful for anyone who's experiences bone trauma, like a break or anything requiring a splint. I say this because bone "spurs" can occur and alter bone knitting after a break or small fracture. It's also good to check if you noticed that you're a little more flexible than other people. The second, and faster way to do this: check your fingernails. The base of your nail (your nail bed) is usually directly opposite your contact with the trigger. Now all you have to do is press straight back. It's easy. |
| Thanks Tweeter, that last post will definitely be referenced when the weather allows me to bring my girl to the range. She has held a number of firearms, before we were together, but has never fired a single round. She's very interested and we've only yet covered responsible gun handling. |
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Originally Posted By Headbarcode:
Thanks Tweeter, that last post will definitely be referenced when the weather allows me to bring my girl to the range. She has held a number of firearms, before we were together, but has never fired a single round. She's very interested and we've only yet covered responsible gun handling. The ballpoint pen thing works with new shooters, I have them roll the pen and if they feel like it to mark their fingertip with a line where they think that flat part is. It really helps kinesthetic learners, those people that learn best by "doing" rather than listening, seeing, or reading and writing. |
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Originally Posted By Tacshooter223: If my penmanship looked half as good as yours I'd be writing a lot more too haha. In all reality, good examples. Seems like some good, pertinent info. My comment is on your penmanship and precise drawings too! See too many people that misspell their own name and can't read their own writing----what a world we are leaving our children/ grandchildren. |
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As a former architectural draftsman and retired engineer, your penmanship is outstanding The quality of notes you take are basically what I take I like details and data, data is invaluable.....in my former line of work, I am retired now, data was king |
When I was once asked to explain the concept of entropy....I paused and said: "You can't unscramble an egg...."
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I've kept an Excel spreadsheet of range load data for about 25 years. Each caliber has its own tab each tab has info on all of the guns I own of that caliber. Each tab has about 80 columns of specific info on each load. not every load has info in every column... Its basically a database. I can compare guns with the same load, loads with the same/different powder, primers, etc etc etc... It grows over time and only requires the discipline to enter the data after every range trip... |
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This is underrated information. For myself, one of my worst habits is saying to myself: "I'll remember doing this" and later forgot what I did. For example, I upgraded extractor springs on several rifles, but months later wondered if I did all of them, and which ones did I use? Batteries in electronics. When were those changed? I'll do it every year! Did I do it this year yet? And on and on. |
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