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thanks sir. so the 'don't shoot over 3 shots at time' isn't right? and from what you're saying, if i'm shooting 10 shot groups that in a baseball sized circle, I should be happy with that?  I wouldn't ever be satisfied with that out my deer rifle.....LOL I will be doing some hunting with it, and the kill zone is a bit bigger than baseball size, so I guess all is good!

and yes I already know my next ammo purchase is going to be more of a hunting bullet, something at least 62 GR. The twist on this rifle is 1/9, and everything I've read is that's not real conducive for bullets much heavier than 62 grain, although I do know each rifle is different.

thanks again!

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Good discussion.

3-shot groups are very useful for a whole lot of purposes and we use them all the time;  checking zero, rough zeroing, even zeroing of rifles that have a proven past POI and grouping ability.

But flukes can pop up and either give you a negative or overly positive picture of your rifle's grouping ability and thus skew your ideas on how the gun shoots.. Oops...how the gun AND shooter shoots!

Your groups will open up with 10-shot groups but they will give you a more predictable idea of the rifle's capabilities.  Having said that, so will multiple 3-shot groups.  In fact...quite helpful is 3 3-shot groups plus a one shot group fired at the same target.  

Finally, I have a pet peeve about HOW groups are reported.  "My rifle shoots 1 inch groups" is a meaningless statement.  Using the term "group" demands additional information or it is a valueless description;  Range shot and number of shots fired in the group are essential in making sense out of the word "group".

The "one-shot group" is a very useful "group" for hunting training.

thanks for the input!  

I was indeed shooting multipe 3 shot groups, at different targets or sections of the targets. all were similar in POI, so I'm reading now I should be happy with this. Next time out I am going to do several 5 and 10 shot groups. Not sure since I'm not a paid member if I can post pics, but I'll get some of the next time out and see if I can. Thanks all for the input

Head to the range and before you start shooting, go to your position and on a clean target fire one shot.  Record it or save the target.  Repeat every time to go to the range.  That "group" is very helpful in telling you how good a shot you are for hunting purposes.

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thanks everyone, really! I have been doing nothing but reading since I posted this, and have learned some things. I will openly admit that I know I'm not the smartest fellar in the world, but I do try to study things out and ask questions. I'd much rather trust the experience of other like minded people on a forum than just plain and simple the adivertising that I see.

first off, yes, I realize that I bought an 'off the rack', inexpensive rifle. yes it most likely needs a trigger job done on it, although with close to a couple hundred rounds I am getting the feel for it more each shot. Yes I need to spend more time behind it. I do intend to do some hunting with it, mostly varmint type of hunting, which is why I was hoping/expecting tighter groups.

I have read and even made myself notes from some of your posts, and have definitely come to realize that I won't get the same type groups with this short barrelled semi auto as I am used to getting with my heavy barrelled bolt action deer rifle, but I am totally happy with that, esp after reading my 3-4 MOA groups are pretty close to average. I know after I've shot it more and become more comfortable with and more used to it, I will improve it some.

Don't get me wrong, I love this thing! man it's fun, yes I do intend on getting some heavier ammo, and next time i go out, I'll take the .270 and shoot some 10 shot groups and see for myself that you are indeed correct (though I really don't have to take it, I know you're right)

I am on a fixed income, so buying up a bunch of ammo at a time is kind of hard, but I can see where this thing is gonna be a lot of fun! I will indeed pick up some different brand heavier ammo for the next trip out, but the cheaper 55 grain stuff is just as fun to shoot!


thanks everyone for the insights, I do very much appreciate it!

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Ammo is THE variable... Short of being a poor shooter ammo will make the biggest difference of anything you will do to your rifle.  On a rack grade AR finding a load it likes will be the difference between 1 MOA (about the best you'll get from a chrome lined Mil-Spec gun on a good day) and 3-4 MOA.

Also... Did I miss what kind of optic you are using? Shooting 2-3 MOA groups with iron sighs is (IMO) outstanding.

I'm a decent shooter with a fair amount of AR iron experience;  Last weekend I re-zero'd my RRA stainless middy with a carry handle and .052" front sight post.  With AE 55grn FMJ I shot a 2.5" group at 100 yards.  It was better than I expected.

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Kind of silly but are you resting the barrel directly on a sandbag or something?  This can cause the shots to go very high.

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Lot's of good points. By coincidence myself and a few others were touching on this subject too in another thread. At first it started as a comparison of a couple of middy rifles and what to expect with commonly used cheap ammo. Couple others (EVR and Finslayer) have been kind enough to post some of their results too. EVR just recently added his fine contribution to the mix. I plan on adding more updates with some different rifles and ammo. I hope others will add to it too just for the value of discussion and informal data comparison.

But to answer your question, yes that is totally normal AR accuracy for a unimproved rack grade AR. That said, it doesn't take much to make significant improvements. Decent ammo and a trigger upgrade can do wonders. Grab a box of Black Hills 60gr. VMax or some of the others mentioned and you will likely be pleasantly surprised. Even with your stock trigger. Lots of variables come into play.

Here is a link to that thread. Accuracy Thread    It's still in its early stages. Feel free to add to it. Don't worry if your contribution is less than stellar. Mine wasn't. lol! The goal isn't to critique but just compare.

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Kind of silly but are you resting the barrel directly on a sandbag or something?  This can cause the shots to go very high.

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ok i've never heard this, anyone else verify that resting the barrel on something makes you shoot high?

for the record, I have a cheap bench vise I've used for years for zeroing in my hunting rifles, and no I wasn't locking the barrel in the vise, only the handguard

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I dont know if this has been posted, but 3/4 inch low at 25 yards with.223/5.56 is closer to a 50 yard zero not a 100. I also believe if you want a 100 yard zero you should be like 1inch high at 25 yards. Someone can correct me if i am wrong.

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I believe that is incorrect.  An inch high at 25 will be between 7'' and 10'' high at 100.  An inch low at 50, give or take, will give you a 100 yard zero.  

There are crap loads of different zeros.  Look up "Travis Haley-zero" on youtube.  He goes over about most all of them.  It is pretty informative.  

As always, I am a huge fan, of getting all of your own dope.  My primary gun, I have 3 different rounds that shoot the same poa/poi.  I have it zeroed at 100.  I also have dope on it at 25, 50, 200, and 300.  I keep a logbook, that would be similar to a snipers logbook.  I have round counts, deep cleanings, zeroes, dope, cold bore shots, and weather conditions when shooting.  Is it all neccesary?  I don't know, but it makes me think that I am being more thorough, and I feel like I miss less, when I am killing stuff with it.  

Chaz, I also will go out and shoot 3 shot groups, 5 shot groups, 10 shot groups, and even 20's a times.  Sometimes, I put up a clean target, and see if I can put it all together, and hit dead center, with one kill shot, lol.  When you run yourself against a few different drills like this, you are testing 3 things.  The gun, the ammo, and you.  I love it when a guy comes on here talking about his "moa gun, with a "called" flyer".  Yeah, I know when I crap the bed on a shot.  If that's the case, it's not moa, now is it?  Just switch it up, once you get comfy, and it will make you a better shooter.        

Truth be told, I enjoy it all.  Good luck again  Chaz, L2

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Thanks I had a feeling the my 1inch high was off for a 100 yard zero.

Jukebox, I was going straight off the winchester ballistics calculator right online here http://ballisticscalculator.winchester.com/ it tells me a 55 GR FMJ at 3240 muzzle should hit .8 low at 25 yards.
Actually I downloaded the Remington Shoot! calculator and it says set it .62 low at 25 yards. I am definintely going to buy some more hornady ammo, and I may pick up some of the V-max (or the Z-max which is basically the same but cheaper) and play around with some of that as well.

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Chaz, be careful of those super informative shortcuts.  They are not always as accurate as you might hope they are.  At least not in my experience.  At least not withour coming up with a bunch of your own numbers, and plugging your own data in.  

A lot of ammo "ballistics" come from a 24'' barrel.  Then you have your enviromentals to contend with.  Things like temp., wind, and barometric pressure.  All of these are going to affect your shots, to some degree.

Im not saying that they are worthless, I'm just saying to be careful.  I just didn't want you going out there, your dope that you scored on the net being off, and then you're really confused and frustrated, as to why nothing you dial goes where it's supposed to..  Always trust, but verify. Take care, L2

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Some ramblings on the Close Range Zero.  

I really do not like the whole "Zero at 25" thing.  It is a mass-production GI-military mentality solution to a technical challenge and it is only partly effective.  Short range zero's do NOT always produce the goods at longer ranges.  They must be shot PERFECTLY. If shot perfectly and fed all the correct data, mathematically and geometrically they are "accurate", but their accuracy lies in the realm of the possible, not always actual...and it is the actual that counts.  Remember, ANY miscalculation of data or introduction of shooter error creates an error that grows grows as actual distance to the target grows.  

It is easy to discount slight variations in POI at 25 meters and then interpolate to 300 based on the chronograph, the BC and the height of sights.  Except...all too often, when the load is actually shot at the farther ranges, it is OFF.

It is actually pretty easy to miss the actual POI when shooting at the close ranges.  Often shooters take a "this looks really good" attitude about, say, a 3/4 inch group at 25 meters.  Well, at 100 that is 3 inches and a 3/4 inch windage variation is a MECHANICAL ACCURACY variation of 9 inches at 300.  And that is assuming ALL the data is absolutely correct.  Feeding a bunch of "good enoughs" into short range zeroing can produce 200 and 300 meter impacts far from "center".    

I suspect fewer and fewer people have access to ranges where distances of over 200 can be shot, and that is likely the reason for all the close-range zeroing, and also, fewer and fewer people hunt, so there is no "proof in the pudding" needed.  As for hunting, in my opinion, for any valuable game, it is unethical and just plain stupid to zero at 25 and then go ahead and trust that zero to shots at 200, 250, 300, etc.

Yet again, it was proven to me yesterday when I set up a spare scope on my M&P.  I should have shot a picture of the close range group to demonstrate all this.  I'm certain many might have totally missed the slight right windage of the close range group.  For myself, I didn't care, as I was heading out farther to zero at 200.  I just wanted it to be close enough.  But for those stuck with an indoor range, or otherwise "satisfied" with a short range zero for longer range shooting, the results might have been accepted at 25, with the poor 200 unknown unless an actual shot was taken at that range.

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Goups were well under MOA at 50 yards and really way better than I ever expected.

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I can tell you that from being an avid long gun shooter and hunter that the triggers on these AR's are pretty bad when you are shooting for precision accuracy, but if a guy figures his trigger out he can still shoot it quite well. I put a scope on my new Colt LE6920 and went to the range yesterday and sighted it in for a 50/200 yard zero and I gotta say I must have got a good one. My targets shooting both Hornday 55 grain SP's and the Fusion 62 grainers looked like those little star paper targets at the fair that you shoot with an auto bb gun. Goups were well under MOA at 50 yards and really way better than I ever expected. All I read on these forums is that 2-3" MOA is expected and thats not something a guy like me is willing to accept. But my new AR has really impressed the chit out of me and i expect to kill a deer with it this weekend. I definately intend to put a better trigger in this thing and honestly believe it will make my groups even tighter, these rifles dont weigh much and with heavy creepy triggers you really have know how to counter it or youll move the gun enough off your aiming point while squeezing the trigger .

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speaking of triggers, I'm ok with this one for now, basically because of money issues on a fixed income, LOL so I'll make do. BUT....at some point I would like to either have this one worked on, or replaced. Are there adjustments on these? or just flat out have to be changed out? if so, some options/ideas from you experienced guys please!

the gunsmith at Adventure Outdoors in Marietta GA not too awful far from me advertises trigger jobs for $75. I'll have to ask next time I go in what all that would do for me. They also have an indoor range......maybe I need to scrape up some cash and go visit them soon

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OK, I’ve been watching this thread with great interest...