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Posted: 1/7/2004 4:56:12 AM EDT
| if i sell my lower to a guy in another state does the FFL give me any paper work back for proof of sale? |
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I have sold rifles on the auctions and have made sure I had the copy of the FFL it's going to along with all of the information of the seller. I would also make a sales receipt for the lower and keep everything in a file. As long as it gets shipped to the FFL, they have to do all the sellers info for the sale and as long as you have a paper trail to them, they have the paper trail from there. Hope this helps... from a fellow CT native |
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Quoted: You should have a copy of the buyer's FFL in hand BEFORE you ship it to them. IBTL Or, you can use the BATFE's webpage to verify a valid FFL and shipping address. I'm not sure it's a legal requirement to have a paper copy in hand. Correct me if I'm wrong, anyone. |
| If you sell a firearm to someone out of state and ship it to them, you better have a copy of their FFL. That's the only way to CYA. Any dealer who would not send me a copy of his FFL would get no firearm from me. IIRC, the web page for verifying FFL's says not to rely solely on that info, you still need to have a copy of the FFL. |
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Quoted: If you sell a firearm to someone out of state and ship it to them, you better have a copy of their FFL. That's the only way to CYA. Any dealer who would not send me a copy of his FFL would get no firearm from me. IIRC, the web page for verifying FFL's says not to rely solely on that info, you still need to have a copy of the FFL. Our local BATF inspectors told us to NOT give our FFL's out to anyone other than FFL's. There has been forgery by non-FFL's... We do not send otu FFL to anyone but an FFL. We do provide our FFL # so the sender can verify and print out the information for their records. |
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so i can send it threw local mail or do i have to have my dealer ship it? i am trying to give it to my brother for a present but i dont want my name on the paper work for the receiver just in case it gets stolen from him in the future? starting to think i will tell him forget it hehe |
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Quoted: Go into your neighborhood pawn shop or any firearms gun shop, tell them you want to sell them a gun, but you want a copy of thier license first. They will laugh you out of the building. Why would they do that? If they want the sale, why would they have a problem giving you a .02 cent copy? I just went in to the most reputable gun shop in my area(supplies most of our police force) about an hour ago, and asked for a copy of their FFL. I'm not even buying a gun from them....they're just doing the transfer. They gave me a signed copy, with no questions asked. No laughing involved. |
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The copy of the FFL is a license to shop. You or anyone with that can walk into any state gun show and buy a gun from a dealer just by handing them that ffl. If your local FFL wants to hand them out willy nilly, that's upto them but the local ATF office better not find out. Anyway you'r not getting away with that crap at my shop. |
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Quoted: The copy of the FFL is a license to shop. You or anyone with that can walk into any state gun show and buy a gun from a dealer just by handing them that ffl. If your local FFL wants to hand them out willy nilly, that's upto them but the local ATF office better not find out. Anyway you'r not getting away with that crap at my shop. Huh? I don't need a license to shop. I can already go into any gunstore or gunshow and buy anything I want. I guess I'm totally missing your point. What could someone do, other than have a gun shipped to that FLL holder's address? Could you explain in more detail exactly what risk you're taking by giving someone a copy of your license? And if the ATF has a problem with it, why do most online dealers have MULTIPLE licenses on file? How exactly do they get that license on file without the gun store giving them or the customer a copy of it? |
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Quoted: Quoted: You should have a copy of the buyer's FFL in hand BEFORE you ship it to them. IBTL Or, you can use the BATFE's webpage to verify a valid FFL and shipping address. I'm not sure it's a legal requirement to have a paper copy in hand. DK you're correct. Increasingly FFL's are reluctant to give a copy to non-FFL's as it seems that some crafty folks w/a copier and some White-Out have been doing some creative editing. Correct me if I'm wrong, anyone. |
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FFL dealers have signed copies of thier license on file with other FFL dealer and manufacturers. That is required for FFL dealers and Manuf. What we are talking about here is Joe Blow with a signed copy of a FFL dealer's license. Sure you can goto a gun show and buy a firearm on form 4473 anytime you want. The difference being is if you have a copy of an FFL you can goto any guns show or any gun shop in any state and lay down that license and most every dealer would hand over the gun with no id or any other paperwork, picked up on the spot. It really is a license to shop. Then that dealer would show in thier records that that gun went to said dealer on the license. If you were decent you would then contact the dealer on the license you handed out and have them log in the weapon and then you would do the 4473 with them, but there is nothing to make you do this, the supposed receiving dealer would not know. So take this same case to mailing your license to an unknown unlicensed person on the WWW. now they got your license to go shopping with. I am just not that trusting, and any buyer who would insist they need a copy of my license when they do not, I would doubt thier reasons of why they were demanding a copy. |
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Quoted: FFL dealers have signed copies of thier license on file with other FFL dealer and manufacturers. That is required for FFL dealers and Manuf. What we are talking about here is Joe Blow with a signed copy of a FFL dealer's license. Sure you can goto a gun show and buy a firearm on form 4473 anytime you want. The difference being is if you have a copy of an FFL you can goto any guns show or any gun shop in any state and lay down that license and most every dealer would hand over the gun with no id or any other paperwork, picked up on the spot. It really is a license to shop. Then that dealer would show in thier records that that gun went to said dealer on the license. If you were decent you would then contact the dealer on the license you handed out and have them log in the weapon and then you would do the 4473 with them, but there is nothing to make you do this, the supposed receiving dealer would not know. So take this same case to mailing your license to an unknown unlicensed person on the WWW. now they got your license to go shopping with. I am just not that trusting, and any buyer who would insist they need a copy of my license when they do not, I would doubt thier reasons of why they were demanding a copy. You say, "[b]most every dealer would hand over the gun[/b]. Why most, and not all? And why exactly would they sell it to you with only that copy of an FFL? You certainly don't sound like you're saying it's a law that they have to sell it to you if you just walk in with a photocopy. So, are there actually gun shops/shows that would just hand over a gun because the buyer produced a [i]copy[/i] of an FFL that could very well be fake, as well as not even ask for ID? Having a simple [i]copy[/i] that anyone with a computer could make on his [i]own[/i] is all it takes to buy a gun anywhere/anytime with absolutely no questions asked? I certainly doubt that there is some law stating that anyone with that photocopy can just buy a gun with no verification from the FFL holder, or background check, etc. If there is a law, I'd be interested to see it. Now, if there is no law like this. What are you(gun shop owners) thinking just selling to any Joe that shows you a photocopy of who knows what, that came from who knows where? I'm not trying to start anything. I'm just saying.....if a shop owner just hands over a gun to someone because they have a copy of who-knows-what, then the person who sold the gun needs to worry about the ATF. Not the FFL who's unlucky enough to have their name on it. After all. Who does the background check in a legal transfer? Who's responsibility is it that an unauthorized gun doesn't get into a felon's hands? It's the gun shops responsibility to make sure the gun goes into the right hands. No one else. Now, if you told me that an FFL dealer himself, could produce his ORIGINAL FFL, with a picture ID. That would make more sense. But selling a gun to someone that just shows you a photocopy should be illegal(which I'm sure it is), and it would be extremely stupid. Maybe I'm missing something? |
| You truly are clueless as to how this business is done. The FFL is a license to shop, period. Produce a signed FFL to a dealer and there is nothing else required. Sure it can be a forgery just like the photo ID can be a forgery. I have never had a selling FFL dealer ever ask for a photo ID when I purchase guns in person. There are no background checks, or transfer delays, or anything between dealers. Show a license and you are shopping. It was pretty common days gone by for dealers to give a copy of thier license to friends who liked to travel and shop guns shows. They take your license and when they return the FFL logs in thier persons. ATF is getting really tired of this, so it's becomming less and less common to find a FFL who will give out his license anymore. Some will do it for good customers they know and friends. No way I would do it for a stranger over the internet. |
| What David H. is trying to say is that a SIGNED copy of a FFL is all that is required to transfer a firearm from one FFL to another FFL. This is how it has been done forever. My photo ID (driver's license) has my residence address on it. It does not have my business address on it. My ID has my name on it, not the name of my corporation. The photo ID is not relevant to my FFL. |
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Thankyou for adding that information. I am a sole prop. so my photo ID would match my shop and residence. I never thought of that situation. So even if the selling FFL asked for a photo ID it would not have to match anything because all you would have to say is I am an employee of said gun shop on the FFL and take the gun and walk away. |
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So, once again I'll ask. Is it law that all you need to purchase a gun is a photocopy of just any old FFL? I'm sure there is something in writing you could show me. If it's not a law, the I'm sorry, but I don't see why it's anyone's fault but the seller if they sell a gun to someone who shouldn't have it. Is it not law, that a dealer/shop must be an FFL holder to sell a gun? Is it not law that an FFL dealer must send to another FFL dealer if the gun is going to be shipped? So where is the law that says, "forget all the other legal channels, as long as you have a simple photocopy of anyones FFL, you can just buy a gun anywhere, at anytime, with no verification"? I'm sure it's perfectly legal for you to show that copy and buy a gun. But I'd imagine the gun needs to be sent to the address on the FFL. Not just handed to whoever was holding that photcopy. Who cares if there's a gazillion copies of every FFL out there. If the dealer wouldn't sell to someone without going through the proper channels required, then it wouldn't matter who had a copy. Just a little experiment, today, I called a gun shop in the next town over. I told them I was a gun shop employee and had a signed copy of our FFL. I asked if I needed to go through any paperwork or background check to come in and buy a rifle. They said, "why wouldn't you? everyone goes through a background check unless you want us to send it to your shop". So obviously, your theory doesn't hold true with RESPONSIBLE gun shops and dealers. Maybe there are some idiots out there that would just hand over a gun that quick. But if they do, what you're saying is that it's not their fault for selling to a felon? It's the fault of the persons name on the copy of the FFL? Again, if there is a law saying that you can buy a gun on the spot with ONLY a copy of an FFL and NO sort of varification....I'd like to see it. Otherwise, don't blame anyone but the dealer selling the gun, if it gets into the wrong person's hands. |
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You are totally and sadly mistaken and I think somewhat hard of hearing. A FFL license holder may buy a gun anywhere, on the spot. A FFL license holder may only sell a gun at his place of license or a bonified gun show in his state of license. Going to that shop with FFL in hand would most likely have worked, but calling up and asking them how it would work like you did will not work and they would suspect ATF sting, because you being the employee of a Gun Shop with authorization to purchase firearms would know how that is done and you would not ask if you needed to also show ID or do a background check. The Gun Shop saw these series of questions as a red flag. It's like someone wants to buy some full auto parts but when you ask them to show a copy of your form 4 they don't know what they are taling about. |
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From the ATF's Website (F8) In transactions between licensees, how is the seller assured that a purchaser of a firearm is a licensed dealer? [Back] Verification must be established by the transferee furnishing to the transferor a certified copy of the transferee's license and by any other means the transferor deems necessary. [27 CFR 178.94] By certified copy that means the buying FFL signs the copy of his own license certifying that it is a valid license. Sec. 178.94 Sales or deliveries between licensees. A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer selling or otherwise disposing of firearms, and a licensed collector selling or otherwise disposing of curios or relics, to another licensee shall verify the identity and licensed status of the transferee prior [[Page 956]] to making the transaction. Verification shall be established by the transferee furnishing to the transferor a certified copy of the transferee's license and by such other means as the transferor deems necessary: Provided, That it shall not be required (a) for a transferee who has furnished a certified copy of its license to a transferor to again furnish such certified copy to that transferor during the term of the transferee's current license, (b) for a licensee to furnish a certified copy of its license to another licensee if a firearm is being returned either directly or through another licensee to such licensee and (c) for licensees of multilicensed business organizations to furnish certified copies of their licenses to other licensed locations operated by such organization: Provided further, That a multilicensed business organization may furnish to a transferor, in lieu of a certified copy of each license, a list, certified to be true, correct and complete, containing the name, address, license number, and the date of license expiration of each licensed location operated by such organization, and the transferor may sell or otherwise dispose of firearms as provided by this section to any licensee appearing on such list without requiring a certified copy of a license therefrom. A transferor licensee who has the certified information required by this section may sell or dispose of firearms to a licensee for not more than 45 days following the expiration date of the transferee's license. (Approved by the Office of Management and Budget under control number 1512-0387) [T.D. ATF-270, 53 FR 10496, Mar. 31, 1988] If you need me to explain it to you again let me know. |
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I'm not trying to start a pissing match here. I'm just doing a little debating and trying to understand what could possibly be a loophole in the law, if there actually is one. If you don't feel like debating this, by all means, don't. It would be more impressive if you could argue your point and show facts without the insults, but let's continue if you'd like..... Quoted: .....calling up and asking them how it would work like you did will not work and they would suspect ATF sting Why exactly would the ATF conduct a sting on a pefectly legal transaction? Seems a little odd, no? That would be no different than having a regular non FFL holder, try to buy a gun through the legal channles, and say, [i]"they wouldn't sell me a gun, because I asked how the background check process worked and they suspected me of being part of a sting".[/i] What exactly is the ATF "stinging" if it's a perfectly legal transaction? A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer selling or otherwise disposing of firearms, and a licensed collector selling or otherwise disposing of curios or relics, to another licensee [i]shall verify the identity and licensed status of the transferee prior to making the transaction.[/i] The relevant part I put in italics. It specifically says that the seller has to verify the identity of the transferee. Provided, That it shall not be required (a) for a transferee who has furnished a certified copy of its license to a transferor to again furnish such certified copy to that transferor during the term of the transferee's current license, Is this the part you are basing your arguement on? I understand that having a copy of the FFL verifies the status of the license thus illiminating the need for the transferor to check the status of the license. But how does having a copy of the FFL verify the identity of the holder? If you were required to show ID, along with the FFL copy, then this law would make perfect sense. I think this law is wrongly written or badly worded, and I see how you enterprate it the way you do. But is it legal? If I were to write the ATF a letter asking them about the process you speak of, would they tell me it's legal? I assume you would say they won't tell me that, because earlier you illuded that the ATF might do a sting to catch this exact type of transaction in progress. I don't see how by just having a copy of a license, that it would verify the identity of the person holding the copy. |
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Quoted: My friend, Dave is telling you how the business works in regards to the law. he has not lied or even told you a half truth... Trust what he says, he is not pulling your leg. I understand you have a problem believeing what he has said so i suggest you read the regs and as time goes on you will come to agree with what he says, more than likely. |
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Quoted: Quoted: My friend, Dave is telling you how the business works in regards to the law. he has not lied or even told you a half truth... Trust what he says, he is not pulling your leg. I understand you have a problem believeing what he has said so i suggest you read the regs and as time goes on you will come to agree with what he says, more than likely. budman, I never said he was lying or that he wasn't telling the truth. If that is the way things are done, then the system is really screwed up if you can just buy a gun with a photocopy of an FFL...especially if the validity of that FFL or the person holding it doesn't need to be verified. I don't agree with background checks, holding periods, or any regulations to buy a gun. But if those regulations are going to be in place, then this is one hell of an easy way around them. And that is my main point, I just don't see the point of all these regulations if they can just be bypassed by simply having a photocopy of an FFL that doesn't have to be proven is yours. I interpreted the regulations he posted one way, I guess everyone else interprets them another way. Simple debate, that's all. I wasn't trying to belittle anyone. |
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I see another solution to this "problem". I am not a Dealer, but have a C&R FFL and a number of other C&R FFL holders recommended the following procedure, which I have implemented in all cases. When I mail a hand-signed copy of my C&R FFL or hand a copy to another FFL in a face-to-face transaction, I write across it (in large letters) "FILE COPY ONLY FOR XYZ GUNS & AMMO". That should solve the problem of someone taking it from the files of some FFL (e.g. it could happen at CAI, AIM Surplus or Joe's Guns and Ammo) and trying to "shop" with it at another FFL! [This may not be "bulletproof" but it gives me a level of comfort that my C&R FFL is unlikely to be mis-used (just like the locks on my house).] If I was shipping a gun across state lines to an FFL, I would insist on a hand-signed copy of their FFL or no deal. If they balked, I'd suggest what I do above . . . if they won't listen, then I would not ship to them at all. I'm going to cover my butt, in case the ATF are ever checking my records. I've received some mis-information from local ATF agents, as has most other FFLs, and we've been told numerous times that the only definitive answers are in writing from the Technical Branch in DC. As for a local sale to an FFL, if it is a C&R see above. If it is a modern gun that I'm selling to a FFL, I'll get a signed receipt with gun description, S/N and name/address of FFL on it for my personal records. [We have state registration of all firearms transactions, so our local goon squad can stomp on us for a gun we sold 20 years ago and proof of sale can go a long way to sending them on their way without lawyers bills.] YMMV |
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