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Posted: 9/13/2009 5:09:56 PM EDT
| How many of you have a shtf setup with an optics magnification over a true 1? Would you use a scope with a minimal 1.5 magnification? |
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How many of you have a shtf setup with an optics magnification over a true 1? Would you use a scope with a minimal 1.5 magnification? I have seen a lot of 3 gunners use a magnification down to 1.5 and they do pretty well with the close up stuff. I would be worried about low light situations though. And of course its fine with an ACOG. |
| If its a true SHTF build and you are relying on it I wouldn't put anything on it other than an EOTech or Aimpoint. I wouldn't want anything over a true 1 power. To much can go wrong and its to much to think about. Its point and shoot that's what I would want. Plus if the target is over 100 yards its not SHTF. |
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If its a true SHTF build and you are relying on it I wouldn't put anything on it other than an EOTech or Aimpoint. I wouldn't want anything over a true 1 power. To much can go wrong and its to much to think about. Its point and shoot that's what I would want. Plus if the target is over 100 yards its not SHTF. This + BUIS's |
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+1 i rock the irons but that only cause im too cheap to buy a acog or aimpoint haha 
+1. Put me on the too cheap list. I spent the money on the rifle & ammo, wasn't much left after that. My back up iron sights are the carry handle. I'm way to cheap to buy an acog or eotech. It just ain't in the budjet. I did put a burris fullfield 2-7x with ballistic plex on it. On 2x it's a little slower than I'd like to get on targets, but the rifles hold 30 and it's not hard to walk rounds in if you're familiar with the weapon. As far as SHTF only being within 100 yards?!?!?!?!? I don't think so. I can't imagine that too manyh combat veterans would say they only want a 100 yard gun. |
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How many of you have a shtf setup with an optics magnification over a true 1? Would you use a scope with a minimal 1.5 magnification? I consider each of my rifles to be a potential SHTF weapon with various optics. No matter what kind of sh^t starts flying, I've got options. |
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for SHTF I'd stick with an aimpoint. I like Eotechs and their reticle much better but the battery life is atrocious! I think an Aimpoint with a flip to the side magnifier is a great setup  I'm in this boat although I haven't bought the magnifer yet. Having a longer range rifle with a good set of glass wouldn't be a bad idea though. That way you have an option on what type of gun to grab if SHTF. |
| you gotta define shtf. Where i live shtf could mean shots out to 600+ yards. If you are talking about compact urban setting than yeah a max 1x may get you there, but i prefer to have a bit of magnification 3x-4x. Past that is .300 mag. time! Just think of distances as your are around where you live, how far is across the walmart parking lot? i think shtf is much different than an intruder etc. when shtf distance means nothing to me. |
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+1 i rock the irons but that only cause im too cheap to buy a acog or aimpoint haha
+1. Put me on the too cheap list. I spent the money on the rifle & ammo, wasn't much left after that. My back up iron sights are the carry handle. I'm way to cheap to buy an acog or eotech. It just ain't in the budjet. I did put a burris fullfield 2-7x with ballistic plex on it. On 2x it's a little slower than I'd like to get on targets, but the rifles hold 30 and it's not hard to walk rounds in if you're familiar with the weapon. As far as SHTF only being within 100 yards?!?!?!?!? I don't think so. I can't imagine that too manyh combat veterans would say they only want a 100 yard gun. Well that would entail defining a SHTF situation. I assume the OP is talking about a SHTF situation with the M4 thats why he posted about optics. It depends on where you are. In an urban environment with buildings full of zombies I would want my M4 with an EOTech and my Glock. The Glock for CQ and the M4 with the EOTech engage targets quickly from 25 to 200 yrds. If im in an open area with long range shots im def not going to have my M4. Im going to pull out the 7mm with the Leupold 2.5x10 on it and pick them off. If I were clearing my own home my Glock or preferably my shotgun with #7 shot, because I dont want to harm a family member on the other side of the wall. So for what the OP posted about, I think an EO, Aimpoint, or a non magnified optic from the Trijicon family would be great. |
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I am with JW1069, each of my rifle's has the potential to be my SHTF rifle, it all depends on the circumstance. I do however have one primary SHTF rifle for me and one for the wife, hers is pretty simple, a 12.5" barrel, Surefire suppressor and an Aimpoint. I prefer a 14.5" barrel, AAC suppressor and a Leupold Mark 4 1.5-5x20mm MR/T M2.
Mine: 
Her's (she won't be using the bipod): 
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there is also the whole idea of the scout rifle. now i know, typically, its a bolt rifle with a forward mounted scope w/ an eye relief of 8-14" or whatever, w/ a 2x zoom.
i think this would be a great SHTF set up with magnification 2x-4, to give you a little room to play. With it being mounted forward with the longer eye relief and low maginification, you can still keep both eyes open with a little practice. also, as mentioned before, the aimpoints with magnifiers. or if your cheap, like me, get the primary arms. great red dot! just my .02 |
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You have to remember that even in a SHTF scenario, you are still responsible for each and every round that you put down range. I do not think walking the rounds is an option. Also, for me SHTF means holding down my fort or evacuating. Engaging a target out past 100 yards is not in my plan, but I can am pretty sure where my carbine and ammo will hit at distance I will take a shot.. For SHTF, I would think more along escape and evasion rather than extended fire fights at long distance. Personally, I want to be as invisible, unheard, and unnoticed as possible.
I am using an EOTECH 512 (AA Batteries) and of iron sights. LMT BUIS with standard A2 FSB. My 2 cents Quoted:
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+1 i rock the irons but that only cause im too cheap to buy a acog or aimpoint haha
+1. Put me on the too cheap list. I spent the money on the rifle & ammo, wasn't much left after that. My back up iron sights are the carry handle. I'm way to cheap to buy an acog or eotech. It just ain't in the budjet. I did put a burris fullfield 2-7x with ballistic plex on it. On 2x it's a little slower than I'd like to get on targets, but the rifles hold 30 and it's not hard to walk rounds in if you're familiar with the weapon. As far as SHTF only being within 100 yards?!?!?!?!? I don't think so. I can't imagine that too manyh combat veterans would say they only want a 100 yard gun. |
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"I want to be as invisible, unheard, and unnoticed as possible."
I would hope that would be everyones plan. You're correct that walking the rounds in isn't going to work in every case and in those cases I'd rather have a crosshair if such a fine shot is needed. To me SHTF means I need a rifle in my hand for whatever reason other than fun at the range or hunting. I don't think of SHTF as a long range shooting contest, but it could be. Every scope or red dot is a compromise of either speed or precision. I would rather be able reach out farther and hit targets with a scope even if that makes me just a little slower up close. There's no right or wrong, it's all a gamble we take with our own lives in our situations. I really hope I never go through a SHTF situation. |
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Elcan Specter DR.
No, I don't plan to ever shoot at something that is >250 yards away - I can just leave the area quietly before it gets here if it's that far away. But... sometimes, it's nice to switch to the 4x with a flick of my finger to get a better view of the potential bad guy >200 yards away... with the specter, I don't need to rummage around in my pack for a detachable optic or a spotting scope or binoculars. The reason I don't have an aimpoint - no etched reticle. In the event the batteries don't work, I'd have nothing. Elcan has an etched reticle. The reticle also illuminates for low-light shooting. Twist the knob the other way, and I get a shiny red dot in the middle (it's not a holographic sight like the aimpoint, but with a very slight amount of practice, it's just as easy). They're pretty expensive, but they're worth every penny... besides, by the time you get done adding up the aimpoint, the la rue mount, the magnifier... another la rue mount... and a 3-year gym membership to lug all that stuff around, you'll have spent far more than you would on the elcan. |
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Elcan Specter DR. No, I don't plan to ever shoot at something that is >250 yards away - I can just leave the area quietly before it gets here if it's that far away. But... sometimes, it's nice to switch to the 4x with a flick of my finger to get a better view of the potential bad guy >200 yards away... with the specter, I don't need to rummage around in my pack for a detachable optic or a spotting scope or binoculars. The reason I don't have an aimpoint - no etched reticle. In the event the batteries don't work, I'd have nothing. Elcan has an etched reticle. The reticle also illuminates for low-light shooting. Twist the knob the other way, and I get a shiny red dot in the middle (it's not a holographic sight like the aimpoint, but with a very slight amount of practice, it's just as easy). They're pretty expensive, but they're worth every penny... besides, by the time you get done adding up the aimpoint, the la rue mount, the magnifier... another la rue mount... and a 3-year gym membership to lug all that stuff around, you'll have spent far more than you would on the elcan. so i looked this thing up. its super fantastic. but dear lord! nearly $2K? man oh man! shit will be hittin fans left and right before i can ever afford that. but it does seem like the "can do" of combat sights. |
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Elcan Specter DR. No, I don't plan to ever shoot at something that is >250 yards away - I can just leave the area quietly before it gets here if it's that far away. But... sometimes, it's nice to switch to the 4x with a flick of my finger to get a better view of the potential bad guy >200 yards away... with the specter, I don't need to rummage around in my pack for a detachable optic or a spotting scope or binoculars. The reason I don't have an aimpoint - no etched reticle. In the event the batteries don't work, I'd have nothing. Elcan has an etched reticle. The reticle also illuminates for low-light shooting. Twist the knob the other way, and I get a shiny red dot in the middle (it's not a holographic sight like the aimpoint, but with a very slight amount of practice, it's just as easy). They're pretty expensive, but they're worth every penny... besides, by the time you get done adding up the aimpoint, the la rue mount, the magnifier... another la rue mount... and a 3-year gym membership to lug all that stuff around, you'll have spent far more than you would on the elcan. so i looked this thing up. its super fantastic. but dear lord! nearly $2K? man oh man! shit will be hittin fans left and right before i can ever afford that. but it does seem like the "can do" of combat sights. I got mine for $1500 shipped. If you look around and you are patient, you can find a deal. I don't know if you've heard this general rule of thumb before, but the optic should never cost less than the gun. |
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I am with JW1069, each of my rifle's has the potential to be my SHTF rifle, it all depends on the circumstance. I do however have one primary SHTF rifle for me and one for the wife, hers is pretty simple, a 12.5" barrel, Surefire suppressor and an Aimpoint. I prefer a 14.5" barrel, AAC suppressor and a Leupold Mark 4 1.5-5x20mm MR/T M2. Mine: http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e118/michealj88/IMG_3073Large.jpg http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e118/michealj88/IMG_3042Large.jpg Her's (she won't be using the bipod): http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e118/michealj88/IMG_2267Large.jpg That rifle is begging for a FDE Dura Coat job 
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Elcan Specter DR. No, I don't plan to ever shoot at something that is >250 yards away - I can just leave the area quietly before it gets here if it's that far away. But... sometimes, it's nice to switch to the 4x with a flick of my finger to get a better view of the potential bad guy >200 yards away... with the specter, I don't need to rummage around in my pack for a detachable optic or a spotting scope or binoculars. The reason I don't have an aimpoint - no etched reticle. In the event the batteries don't work, I'd have nothing. Elcan has an etched reticle. The reticle also illuminates for low-light shooting. Twist the knob the other way, and I get a shiny red dot in the middle (it's not a holographic sight like the aimpoint, but with a very slight amount of practice, it's just as easy). They're pretty expensive, but they're worth every penny... besides, by the time you get done adding up the aimpoint, the la rue mount, the magnifier... another la rue mount... and a 3-year gym membership to lug all that stuff around, you'll have spent far more than you would on the elcan. You need that gym membership to lug a DR, as well... 
The Achilles heel of the DR is the mounting system. The ARMS levers just don't inspire confidence in the way a Larue throw lever does. If Larue came out with a replacement mount, the Specter DR would be IT. That having been said, I am giving the 7.62NATO version a go on my 12.5" 6.8 carbine... I'll throw this configuration into the SHTF column after a year or so and a few thousand rounds have proven the optic still retains zero and nothing has broken off. 
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Elcan Specter DR. No, I don't plan to ever shoot at something that is >250 yards away - I can just leave the area quietly before it gets here if it's that far away. But... sometimes, it's nice to switch to the 4x with a flick of my finger to get a better view of the potential bad guy >200 yards away... with the specter, I don't need to rummage around in my pack for a detachable optic or a spotting scope or binoculars. The reason I don't have an aimpoint - no etched reticle. In the event the batteries don't work, I'd have nothing. Elcan has an etched reticle. The reticle also illuminates for low-light shooting. Twist the knob the other way, and I get a shiny red dot in the middle (it's not a holographic sight like the aimpoint, but with a very slight amount of practice, it's just as easy). They're pretty expensive, but they're worth every penny... besides, by the time you get done adding up the aimpoint, the la rue mount, the magnifier... another la rue mount... and a 3-year gym membership to lug all that stuff around, you'll have spent far more than you would on the elcan. You need that gym membership to lug a DR, as well...
The Achilles heel of the DR is the mounting system. The ARMS levers just don't inspire confidence in the way a Larue throw lever does. If Larue came out with a replacement mount, the Specter DR would be IT. That having been said, I am giving the 7.62NATO version a go on my 12.5" 6.8 carbine... I'll throw this configuration into the SHTF column after a year or so and a few thousand rounds have proven the optic still retains zero and nothing has broken off. http://personal.visualitymedia.com/personal/6_8/68_specter_angled_1000.jpg It IS a little heavier than some other optics, but the weight isn't as far forward as it would be when you put on the aimpoint 3x scope. Well, I personally like the ARMS mounts (I especially like that it COMES with the mount integrated with the optic), but to each their own. As for the proving... I'm fairly certain USSOCOM did some good work proving this particular optic will survive a SHTF scenerio.
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If its a true SHTF build and you are relying on it I wouldn't put anything on it other than an EOTech or Aimpoint. I wouldn't want anything over a true 1 power. To much can go wrong and its to much to think about. Its point and shoot that's what I would want. Plus if the target is over 100 yards its not SHTF. +1 |
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teddy12b
excellant reply. we all play this scenario in our minds as to shtf, but i dont think its gonna go down the way we think it is. learn to handle our weapons, and ourselves, as best we can and be prepared for anything. having said that, i have an aimpoint 9000l on my socom, a leupold 2-7 on my m1a standard, and irons on my colt 6940 and bushy carbon. |
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For a SHTF rifle, versatility is something to consider. SHFT is not just fending off a home invader, or riotous mobs at food depots. It could be gathering game or defending critical positions in wilderness retreats. Magnified optics are then a distint advantage. They key, as with any rifle, is to be intimately familiar with whatever weapon system you choose, and train to react appropriately to any potential failure.
Optics do fail. Mounts do fail. Even your BUIS may fail. Choose the configuration you think will work best for you, then physically and mentally train to overcome any weakness your set up may have. Optics are only an advantage, a force multiplier. You simply have to do them right. |
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Here's a link of a short guide in picking the right optic for your fighting carbine.
Fighting Carbine Optics - A Short Guide to Picking the Right Optic - tacked thread link My SHTF optic setup is an Aimpoint on LaRue cantilever QD mount, magnifier on LaRue pivot QD mount, standard fixed front sight and Troy folding BUIS on my 16" midlength gas system carbine. This setup is good enough for me for mostly 100 yds or under with an occasional rare 200 to 300 yds shot and I'm pretty satisfied with it for the last couple of years in day and night time use. I had experience with a fixed 1.5X magnification on my Steyr AUG A1 16" carbine it's fine in the daytime but I don't prefer to use it at night. |
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I am with JW1069, each of my rifle's has the potential to be my SHTF rifle, it all depends on the circumstance. I do however have one primary SHTF rifle for me and one for the wife, hers is pretty simple, a 12.5" barrel, Surefire suppressor and an Aimpoint. I prefer a 14.5" barrel, AAC suppressor and a Leupold Mark 4 1.5-5x20mm MR/T M2. Mine: http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e118/michealj88/IMG_3073Large.jpg http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e118/michealj88/IMG_3042Large.jpg Her's (she won't be using the bipod): http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e118/michealj88/IMG_2267Large.jpg I usually just lurk, but I want to compliment you on those impressive pictures. Where exactly where they taken? |
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I have only the one rifle but I definetly consider it a SHTF gun (Colt 6920). The optic Im planning on getting soon (as there available) is the Trijicon TR24. You get true 1x, plus the added advantage of magnification if needed. Plus, from what Ive read there just as quick up close as with a red dot.
I like being able to see what Im shooting at from a distance.
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I am with JW1069, each of my rifle's has the potential to be my SHTF rifle, it all depends on the circumstance. I do however have one primary SHTF rifle for me and one for the wife, hers is pretty simple, a 12.5" barrel, Surefire suppressor and an Aimpoint. I prefer a 14.5" barrel, AAC suppressor and a Leupold Mark 4 1.5-5x20mm MR/T M2. Mine: http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e118/michealj88/IMG_3073Large.jpg http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e118/michealj88/IMG_3042Large.jpg Her's (she won't be using the bipod): http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e118/michealj88/IMG_2267Large.jpg I usually just lurk, but I want to compliment you on those impressive pictures. Where exactly where they taken? Thanks for the compliment. Those pictures were taken at a couple different locations a few miles from my house. |
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+1 i rock the irons but that only cause im too cheap to buy a acog or aimpoint haha
i disagree if its truly a SHTF situation you should not rely on anything battery powered. I would want an ACOG and nothing else. That's just my point. We don't rely on RDS or flashlights. We use them for the advantage the give. We rely on training and mindset, and have iron sights handy. |
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Elcan Specter DR. No, I don't plan to ever shoot at something that is >250 yards away - I can just leave the area quietly before it gets here if it's that far away. But... sometimes, it's nice to switch to the 4x with a flick of my finger to get a better view of the potential bad guy >200 yards away... with the specter, I don't need to rummage around in my pack for a detachable optic or a spotting scope or binoculars. The reason I don't have an aimpoint - no etched reticle. In the event the batteries don't work, I'd have nothing. Elcan has an etched reticle. The reticle also illuminates for low-light shooting. Twist the knob the other way, and I get a shiny red dot in the middle (it's not a holographic sight like the aimpoint, but with a very slight amount of practice, it's just as easy). They're pretty expensive, but they're worth every penny... besides, by the time you get done adding up the aimpoint, the la rue mount, the magnifier... another la rue mount... and a 3-year gym membership to lug all that stuff around, you'll have spent far more than you would on the elcan. +1 This is my thinking also, but I went with the CQT. I know that they are not well liked here. I found one for $500 that I could try before paying for it, so I used it for 3-gun a few times, and I liked it. I have taken shots out to about 800M, cleared rooms with it, and think it will work great. |
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+1 i rock the irons but that only cause im too cheap to buy a acog or aimpoint haha
i disagree if its truly a SHTF situation you should not rely on anything battery powered. I would want an ACOG and nothing else. I would not want anything tritium powered outside of some night sights... I can have spare batteries to last over a decade... if a tritium lamp breaks... where and how will you swap that? Swapping batteries is easy. Stockpilling batteries is cheap and easy. Tirtium is neither cheap nor easy to get back up and running. ACOGs suck for up close use compared to any 1X optic. |
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Elcan Specter DR. No, I don't plan to ever shoot at something that is >250 yards away - I can just leave the area quietly before it gets here if it's that far away. But... sometimes, it's nice to switch to the 4x with a flick of my finger to get a better view of the potential bad guy >200 yards away... with the specter, I don't need to rummage around in my pack for a detachable optic or a spotting scope or binoculars. The reason I don't have an aimpoint - no etched reticle. In the event the batteries don't work, I'd have nothing. Elcan has an etched reticle. The reticle also illuminates for low-light shooting. Twist the knob the other way, and I get a shiny red dot in the middle (it's not a holographic sight like the aimpoint, but with a very slight amount of practice, it's just as easy). They're pretty expensive, but they're worth every penny... besides, by the time you get done adding up the aimpoint, the la rue mount, the magnifier... another la rue mount... and a 3-year gym membership to lug all that stuff around, you'll have spent far more than you would on the elcan. And yet the 2 Larue mounts and an Aimpoint and a magnfier weighs an ounce less than a Specter DR. |
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there is also the whole idea of the scout rifle. now i know, typically, its a bolt rifle with a forward mounted scope w/ an eye relief of 8-14" or whatever, w/ a 2x zoom. i think this would be a great SHTF set up with magnification 2x-4, to give you a little room to play. With it being mounted forward with the longer eye relief and low maginification, you can still keep both eyes open with a little practice. also, as mentioned before, the aimpoints with magnifiers. or if your cheap, like me, get the primary arms. great red dot! just my .02 The scout rifle concept has been dead for years and for good reason. Limited FOV for no good reason. Controls too far forward. Why use a bolt gun for a role better filled by a semi auto? A 1-4X is far easier to use than any scout optic. |
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I really don't think the scout concept is wholly dead. It does have its place. As far as the controls being too far forward...how often would you fiddle with your optics while returning fire? You know in the ol days we had adjustable objectives before side focus.
BK:American! |
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+1 i rock the irons but that only cause im too cheap to buy a acog or aimpoint haha
i disagree if its truly a SHTF situation you should not rely on anything battery powered. I would want an ACOG and nothing else. That's just my point. We don't rely on RDS or flashlights. We use them for the advantage the give. We rely on training and mindset, and have iron sights handy. I don't get why you would eschew the idea of an optic or light just because they use batteries?  SHTF can take on many flavors and I'd rather cover as many bases as possible to give myself an advantage over the less prepared. A RDS WILL give me an edge in a CQB situation especially in low light conditions and improvised shooting positions. Spare batteries for a weapon light are easily carried in the rifle's VFG, grip or stock. If I need more, it's not like they're too tough to find or too heavy to stuff in a BOB. Moreover, if I'm running the rifle for an extended time, there will probably be plenty of BG's on the deck with no more need of their gear.
Just in case I forget to change the batteries in my T-1 over the next 8 years, there's BUIS on all of my rifles to fall back on.
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there is also the whole idea of the scout rifle. now i know, typically, its a bolt rifle with a forward mounted scope w/ an eye relief of 8-14" or whatever, w/ a 2x zoom. i think this would be a great SHTF set up with magnification 2x-4, to give you a little room to play. With it being mounted forward with the longer eye relief and low maginification, you can still keep both eyes open with a little practice. also, as mentioned before, the aimpoints with magnifiers. or if your cheap, like me, get the primary arms. great red dot! just my .02 The scout rifle concept has been dead for years and for good reason. Limited FOV for no good reason. Controls too far forward. Why use a bolt gun for a role better filled by a semi auto? A 1-4X is far easier to use than any scout optic. while i didnt say it, i meant to point out using the "concept" on an AR platform would work well. and with the magnifiers now being made for the red dots, the whole idea of the optic being mounted forward is easier to use. i wasnt trying to say a bolt is a good SHTF set up. just an AR with the concept added. and its just a thought. 
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Elcan Specter DR. No, I don't plan to ever shoot at something that is >250 yards away - I can just leave the area quietly before it gets here if it's that far away. But... sometimes, it's nice to switch to the 4x with a flick of my finger to get a better view of the potential bad guy >200 yards away... with the specter, I don't need to rummage around in my pack for a detachable optic or a spotting scope or binoculars. The reason I don't have an aimpoint - no etched reticle. In the event the batteries don't work, I'd have nothing. Elcan has an etched reticle. The reticle also illuminates for low-light shooting. Twist the knob the other way, and I get a shiny red dot in the middle (it's not a holographic sight like the aimpoint, but with a very slight amount of practice, it's just as easy). They're pretty expensive, but they're worth every penny... besides, by the time you get done adding up the aimpoint, the la rue mount, the magnifier... another la rue mount... and a 3-year gym membership to lug all that stuff around, you'll have spent far more than you would on the elcan. And yet the 2 Larue mounts and an Aimpoint and a magnfier weighs an ounce less than a Specter DR. Be that as it may, how far forward is the center of gravity for the optic setup? That matters more than you think. |
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