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Posted: 2/16/2012 1:06:59 PM EDT
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I was wanting to buy a stripped lower for a build and I talked to a couple of my co workers at sportsman warehouse they said you had to be 18 but when I called my local gunsmith I used for my first rifle they said you had to be 21 I live in Iowa and have checked the hometown thread with no luck can anyone help me out?
bhouse1545 |
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Stripped receivers are sold as "other" now if I remember correctly. They can be legally built into either a rifle or a pistol. The pistol part is where you are running into issues.
Simple fix, buy one with a buttstock already attached. It won't be stripped, but it will be legal. |
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Your right about the "pistol" part throwing a wrench into the equation. I live in NH and wanted to pick up a stripped lower right next door in ME. Negative. salesman said because of the potential
for a pistol/handgun build. Obviously he could ship it to my local FFL. |
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Quoted:
so I can go to a gunshow a pick up a lower ask them to put on a mil spec buffer tube and stock and now I can buy it the guys at the gunsmiths said that wouldn't work either??? No. Even with a stock on it, a lower is not a rifle. You can't shoot the lower. When it has a stock and a barreled upper attached it becomes a rifle. |
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Another fine young lad has the same issue:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_4/563696_.html&page=1&anc=bottom#bottom Assemble your upper, & pay the stripped lower dealer to screw in your buffer tube, mount the stock, & drop the upper on. Sell it to you as a rifle, albeit missing a trigger & some springs. Gig 'em, backbencher |
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It doesn't matter if it can be made into a rifle and/or a pistol or not. The whole pistol thing is moot, a pointless distraction. The fact that it's not a long gun is what makes it illegal to sell to a person under 21 (by a dealer).
"Even if it can only be made into a rifle of shotgun it is still not a rifle or shotgun..." it's still an "other" and can only be sold to a person 21 or older. |
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Quoted:
Another fine young lad has the same issue: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_4/563696_.html&page=1&anc=bottom#bottom Assemble your upper, & pay the stripped lower dealer to screw in your buffer tube, mount the stock, & drop the upper on. Sell it to you as a rifle, albeit missing a trigger & some springs. Gig 'em, backbencher so buy or assemble the upper first and have them put a mil spec buffer tube and stock on? |
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That's the idea. As a stripped lower is an "other" - not a "Any Other Weapon", but not a rifle or pistol, since it can be made into a pistol, BATFE apparently won't let them be sold to under 21's. But once a stripped lower has a stock installed on it, according to BATFE, it's a rifle. (Unless it was a pistol 1st - then it's still a pistol - after it's stopped being a rifle - my head hurts)
So - if your dealer turns the lower into a rifle by screwing on a buffer tube & mounting a stock, then he sells it to you as a rifle. Don't know your state laws, or your dealer's misconceptions, so build the upper, bring the two receiver pins, the buffer tube, & stock, and ask him to assemble it before he sells it to you - as a rifle. The only downside to all this business is that you won't be able to build this receiver as a pistol 1st, as it came from your dealer as a rifle. So this particular lower you'll never build up as a pistol. Now, if "Stripped Lower Day" was coming up, and someone GAVE you a lower for SLD, you'd build it as a pistol 1st, take pics, post 'em in the pistol picture thread, etc, THEN build it as a rifle after you got the certificate of virginity from the manufacturer. Assuming your state trusts you with a pistol you didn't buy from an FFL. Clear as mud? Someone needs to flowchart these insane bullshit hoops we jump through. Gig 'em, backbencher |
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Just out of curiosity (and to add the to confusion?), how would a lower such as the cavalry arms lower work into all of this. The stock is formed as one piece with the lower so I would presume that it is not possible to be made into a pistol, yet it still does not fulfill the requirements of being a rifle according the the documents, despite not being possible to be made into a pistol. I wonder what the ATF's stance is on that.
(Another sub 21 guy here) |
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http://www.cavalrymanufacturing.com/CAV15/future.html
"Cavalry Arms Corp. sold the CAV-15 product line to another company (not Cavalry Manufacturing, LLC). This new company will go public once their BATF licensing is in place." I'd worry about it once a new rifle lower's in production. Gig 'em, backbencher |
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It's not a rifle until it has both a stock and a rifled barrel attached.
The reason "other" cannot transfer to <21 from an FFL, is because of the wording of 18 USC 922(b)(1). This little gem says you have to be 21, with an exception if the firearm is a rifle or shotgun, or ammunition for a rifle or shotgun. "other" is not a rifle or a shotgun, and cannot be until it has both a stock and a rifled or smoothbore barrel. 18 USC 922(b)(1):
(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver - (1) any firearm or ammunition to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than eighteen years of age, and, if the firearm, or ammunition is other than a shotgun or rifle, or ammunition for a shotgun or rifle, to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than twenty-one years of age; |
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No. Even with a stock on it, a lower is not a rifle. You can't shoot the lower. When it has a stock and a barreled upper attached it becomes a rifle. This is my understanding as well. Anything less than a complete firearm is transferred as "other" and can only be sold to someone 21 years old and older. Then again, I'm not a lawyer. There is the expensive option of buying a complete rifle, stripping the lower down, and forming your own build around it. Then sell off the other parts, or keep them for your next build. |
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Quoted:
That's the idea. As a stripped lower is an "other" - not a "Any Other Weapon", but not a rifle or pistol, since it can be made into a pistol, BATFE apparently won't let them be sold to under 21's. But once a stripped lower has a stock installed on it, according to BATFE, it's a rifle. (Unless it was a pistol 1st - then it's still a pistol - after it's stopped being a rifle - my head hurts) So - if your dealer turns the lower into a rifle by screwing on a buffer tube & mounting a stock, then he sells it to you as a rifle. Don't know your state laws, or your dealer's misconceptions, so build the upper, bring the two receiver pins, the buffer tube, & stock, and ask him to assemble it before he sells it to you - as a rifle. The only downside to all this business is that you won't be able to build this receiver as a pistol 1st, as it came from your dealer as a rifle. So this particular lower you'll never build up as a pistol. Now, if "Stripped Lower Day" was coming up, and someone GAVE you a lower for SLD, you'd build it as a pistol 1st, take pics, post 'em in the pistol picture thread, etc, THEN build it as a rifle after you got the certificate of virginity from the manufacturer. Assuming your state trusts you with a pistol you didn't buy from an FFL. Clear as mud? Someone needs to flowchart these insane bullshit hoops we jump through. Gig 'em, backbencher yep thanks going not the way I wanted it to but will have to wait longer to build money wise. Another quick question if buying from a gun show would it be different? since most vendors aren't licensed dealers? |
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The key lies in the word "licensed". By law a FFL or licensed dealer can not run your 4473 and sell you a handgun or "other" if you are under 21. Check your state laws. Here in Colorado you can legally own and purchase a handgun or "other" at the age of 18 but it would be a private or "face to face" transaction. From a private party not required to run a 4473. It is a wierd loophole we have here. I guess loophole is not a good word. It is a legal transaction in colorado. If you have somebody buy it then sell it to you it's called a straw purchase and that opens a whole different can of worms. Good luck.
Another option would to buy a complete, inexpensive, AR. Strip it, sell the parts and build it back up how you like it. Edit: In Colorado, you still need to have your 4473 run at a gun show. Your state laws may differ. |
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bhouse,
I'd guess perhaps half of the folks @ gun shows selling guns are actual FFLs. I've bought from both private individuals & FFLs @ shows. I'd ask your dealer if he'll work w/ you, & slap the buffer, stock, & upper on for you, then sell it as a rifle. Not a lot of non-FFLs deal in stripped lowers. Gig 'em, backbencher |
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Quoted:
It's not a rifle until it has both a stock and a rifled barrel attached. The reason "other" cannot transfer to <21 from an FFL, is because of the wording of 18 USC 922(b)(1). This little gem says you have to be 21, with an exception if the firearm is a rifle or shotgun, or ammunition for a rifle or shotgun. "other" is not a rifle or a shotgun, and cannot be until it has both a stock and a rifled or smoothbore barrel. 18 USC 922(b)(1):
(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver - (1) any firearm or ammunition to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than eighteen years of age, and, if the firearm, or ammunition is other than a shotgun or rifle, or ammunition for a shotgun or rifle, to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than twenty-one years of age; Wait a sec - I've bought 2 Rem 870 shotguns from dealers now, & neither was assembled - they both came in a box too short for the bbl to be mounted on the receiver. I'd wager our young friend needs a stock attached so the dealer can sell him his lower as a rifle - if our young friend decides later to attach a Turkish .410" upper to it & make it a shotgun, that's his business. He can convert a rifle into a shotgun. Once it has a buttstock attached, a stripped lower ain't an other @ that point - b/c whatever it is, it ain't a pistol - it's a shotgun or rifle. Thank you, FDR. I hope your wheelchair bearings squeak for eternity. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
It's not a rifle until it has both a stock and a rifled barrel attached. The reason "other" cannot transfer to <21 from an FFL, is because of the wording of 18 USC 922(b)(1). This little gem says you have to be 21, with an exception if the firearm is a rifle or shotgun, or ammunition for a rifle or shotgun. "other" is not a rifle or a shotgun, and cannot be until it has both a stock and a rifled or smoothbore barrel. 18 USC 922(b)(1):
(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver - (1) any firearm or ammunition to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than eighteen years of age, and, if the firearm, or ammunition is other than a shotgun or rifle, or ammunition for a shotgun or rifle, to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than twenty-one years of age; Wait a sec - I've bought 2 Rem 870 shotguns from dealers now, & neither was assembled - they both came in a box too short for the bbl to be mounted on the receiver. I'd wager our young friend needs a stock attached so the dealer can sell him his lower as a rifle - if our young friend decides later to attach a Turkish .410" upper to it & make it a shotgun, that's his business. He can convert a rifle into a shotgun. Once it has a buttstock attached, a stripped lower ain't an other @ that point - b/c whatever it is, it ain't a pistol - it's a shotgun or rifle. Thank you, FDR. I hope your wheelchair bearings squeak for eternity. Just because it's no longer possible to assemble a lower as a pistol, doesn't make it a rifle or a shotgun, legally - those firearms have their own definitions, too, which include a rifled or smoothbore barrel. A lower with a buttstock could also be built into an "Any Other Weapon", which is not a shotgun or a rifle, so just putting a stock on one does not make it an <18 qualified rifle or shotgun. Those shotgun sales met the definition of "a complete firearm in knockdown condition". A complete parts kit, sold as one unit, even if not yet actually assembled, counts as a complete firearm. That determination was to get around manufacturers selling complete rifles with the upper and lower halves not mated, but in the same box, and not paying excise tax on it. Since that determination, to not count as a complete firearm, a parts kit is sold less a major component - most often the receiver, but sometimes it can include the receiver (making it an FFL item) but not the barrel, or without the BCG, so it's not a complete firearm subject to FAET. An unassembled firearm that s otherwise complete as to all parts, counts as a complete firearm. I know this information may lead to speculation that you can sell a "stripped lower" along with a complete parts kit as a rifle (legal), then later assemble the stripped lower into a pistol, since it's never had a buttstock attached (also legal, as far as I know). That's obviously contrary to the ATF's intent, but I don't know if it would be illegal, given the exact wording of ATF advisories issued to date. |
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bhouse, I'd guess perhaps half of the folks @ gun shows selling guns are actual FFLs. I've bought from both private individuals & FFLs @ shows. I'd ask your dealer if he'll work w/ you, & slap the buffer, stock, & upper on for you, then sell it as a rifle. Not a lot of non-FFLs deal in stripped lowers. Gig 'em, backbencher thanks dude u have helped a lot |
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bhouse,
Perhaps not as much as I would have liked. It seems I have much to learn about stripped lowers, and the numerous loopholes in the NFA. It would seem the only way for you to buy a stripped lower from a FFL is to purchase one from a manufacturing FFL who can legally assemble your rifle for you, ie, sell all your parts back to you & pay the excise tax. Perhaps there should be a warning in the DIY section for under 21's. Gig 'em, backbencher |
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bhouse, I'd guess perhaps half of the folks @ gun shows selling guns are actual FFLs. I've bought from both private individuals & FFLs @ shows. I'd ask your dealer if he'll work w/ you, & slap the buffer, stock, & upper on for you, then sell it as a rifle. Not a lot of non-FFLs deal in stripped lowers. Gig 'em, backbencher hey I asked my FFL but he said he doesn't have the license for it but he gave me a idea or a loop for the lower. he said if my mom or step dad bought the lower it could be transfered to me as a private sale am I correct? Is there certain paperwork needed to transfer the lower to my name? or should she buy it and have me build it and then transfer it to me as a rifle? need help!!! |
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hey I asked my FFL but he said he doesn't have the license for it but he gave me a idea or a loop for the lower. he said if my mom or step dad bought the lower it could be transfered to me as a private sale am I correct? Is there certain paperwork needed to transfer the lower to my name? or should she buy it and have me build it and then transfer it to me as a rifle? need help!!! yes, it's not a straw purchase if it's a gift. As far as I know, Iowa does not have "registration", but if they do have some special rules I'm not aware of, then you'd need to be sure to follow them. Check your hometown forum for state-specific stuff. |
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