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Posted: 11/28/2008 6:11:11 PM EDT
| I just bought a box of 55gr vmax rounds .223. Is this a good round for self defense. I have had loaded some FMJ that I have, Thank God I havent had to use it. I am sure this is stated somewhere if so could you point me in the right direction. |
That is what i am looking for. I am not so worried about cutting through body armor, more concerned about killing the BG and not the family next door or the college kids across the street(although they did have a Obama sign in their yard a few weeks ago )J/K.
The way I look at it, if 1 round dont stop him, I got 19 more. I am sure that will do the trick, the BG not the college kids. |
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Quoted: There's a reason that there's a 12" penetration depth requirement. You need to get out of the mindset of you shooting a static target like at the range without any adrenaline. Chances are, you're going to get some really poor angles when a shot does present itself, and counting on a best-case scenario might not be such a good idea.That is what i am looking for. I am not so worried about cutting through body armor, more concerned about killing the BG and not the family next door or the college kids across the street(although they did have a Obama sign in their yard a few weeks ago  )J/K.The way I look at it, if 1 round dont stop him, I got 19 more. I am sure that will do the trick, the BG not the college kids. |
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<Please keep comments on the technical side - Thanks, Z>
*sigh* Well...I thought it was funny as well as technical. However, I will edit to please the powers that be
When utilizing a round that fragments within a couple of inches of tissue, the remaining secondary projectiles and fragments do not retain enough mass nor velocity to do serious damage to underlying structures within the body, or in some cases to even penetrate into the thoracic cavity through the clothing or musculature and skeletal structure of the target. As you can see, the area circled in red is a "no-go" with VMAX type ammunition, while the area in green is still viable, you are still greatly disadvantaged. Also note that I took this picture in a static position, not a dynamic situation in which I thought I may be shot at. If so, I would have bladed myself more and presented an even tougher target. |
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An LEO will be more likely to encounter odd angles, i.e. sniping situation, but a civilian (or off-duty LEO) in a home defense scenario will more likely to be head on. My home mag is loaded with VMax 50 gr. The destruction and power of these bullets should not be minimized or disregarded.
The photo illustrates a good point but I guarantee you when that 55 gr VMAX hits your arm the threat will be stopped. Your day and your arm will ruined. 
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Hornady VMax is a varmint load..
Does anybody here think that a 6' 2" man tweaked on coke, meth, crack, etc, is a varmint 
Please read THIS link I'll take a 75gr TAP [preferrably 5.56-pressure], thank you Yer 1/9 twist AR doesn't like the 75gr pills? Try the 69gr SMK from Federal or Remington W-W 64gr Power Point, Federal Tru and Corbon 55gr DPX ammunition is a worthy mention |
| 64 grain power points are about as good as it gets, its still a lightly constructed projectile and will expand very rapidly but they hold together well and will do the job. More than likely you will be in a residential area and collateral damage could be at high risk you might be better off with a heavy V-max or Match Hollow point. |
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Quoted:
An LEO will be more likely to encounter odd angles, i.e. sniping situation, but a civilian (or off-duty LEO) in a home defense scenario will more likely to be head on. My home mag is loaded with VMax 50 gr. The destruction and power of these bullets should not be minimized or disregarded. The photo illustrates a good point but I guarantee you when that 55 gr VMAX hits your arm the threat will be stopped. Your day and your arm will ruined. We are drilled to train for worst case scenario. What if you only get one shot at said bad guy? What if said BG is tweaked on drugs? A lightweight VMax will tear an arm up, but won't likely penetrate the torso deep enough to incapacitate––especially if he's tweaked-out on meth, coke, crack, or is drunk and not feeling pain If lightweight projectiles are yer thing, check out Corbon's 55gr DPX round. They'll run in your 1/9, and have enough oomph to penetrate deep enough without breaking up. 75gr FTW |
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Quoted: What makes you think that a home encounter is more likely to be head-on? Are the criminals more stupid and like to present easy targets in this scenario?An LEO will be more likely to encounter odd angles, i.e. sniping situation, but a civilian (or off-duty LEO) in a home defense scenario will more likely to be head on. My home mag is loaded with VMax 50 gr. The destruction and power of these bullets should not be minimized or disregarded. The photo illustrates a good point but I guarantee you when that 55 gr VMAX hits your arm the threat will be stopped. Your day and your arm will ruined. I also disagree with your point that a ruined arm WILL stop an intruder. Sure - it might, but are you sure about that? There's always the off chance that this is a mega-doped up guy that won't care. Did you see that on PP presentation of the guy that was shot 12 times or so with .40S&W and .223, yet still fought the officers when they cuffed him? |
| I recently bought 150 rds. Black Hills Blue Box 68 gr. match HP (I've got a 1:9 barrel) at Cabelas. With a couple of discount coupons, came to about = $11.35/20. Not the absolute cheapest, but I want something I know I can depend on. I'm going to pick up some of the Privi 69gr. HP as soon as it's available (assuming things aren't shut down by then). |
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I've shot thousands of rabbits and prairie dogs with 50gr Nosler Ballistic tip rounds. And it makes some gruesome wounds. That said...... I use 68gr and 77gr SMK's for hunting 2 legged critters. Vmax's and BT's are for small furry animals, not Chester the molester breaking into your house.
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There's a reason that there's a 12" penetration depth requirement. You need to get out of the mindset of you shooting a static target like at the range without any adrenaline. Chances are, you're going to get some really poor angles when a shot does present itself, and counting on a best-case scenario might not be such a good idea.
That is what i am looking for. I am not so worried about cutting through body armor, more concerned about killing the BG and not the family next door or the college kids across the street(although they did have a Obama sign in their yard a few weeks ago )J/K.
The way I look at it, if 1 round dont stop him, I got 19 more. I am sure that will do the trick, the BG not the college kids. Sorry, but when you're standing in front of the jury/judge and explaining to them that the AR-15 was the ONLY weapon available for defense and that you chose the FMJ for penetration (injured neighbors to the right) it will be too late. Everyone brings up the FBI's 12" requirement. BAH! Plenty of BGs have been killed with less. I'm using an FN FiveSeven for a drawer gun now, loaded with VMAX, because I've seen what a 9mm ball and 5.56 ball will do in a room made of wood studs/sheet rock. If the AR15 is your go to gun, I'd use a round that LIMITs penetration. The BG hit at 15-20' (and that might be too far in your home) WILL NOT know the difference...and you have follow up shots to further incapacitate. The field...and your home...are two very different battlefields. |
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There's a reason that there's a 12" penetration depth requirement. You need to get out of the mindset of you shooting a static target like at the range without any adrenaline. Chances are, you're going to get some really poor angles when a shot does present itself, and counting on a best-case scenario might not be such a good idea.
That is what i am looking for. I am not so worried about cutting through body armor, more concerned about killing the BG and not the family next door or the college kids across the street(although they did have a Obama sign in their yard a few weeks ago )J/K.
The way I look at it, if 1 round dont stop him, I got 19 more. I am sure that will do the trick, the BG not the college kids. Sorry, but when you're standing in front of the jury/judge and explaining to them that the AR-15 was the ONLY weapon available for defense and that you chose the FMJ for penetration (injured neighbors to the right) it will be too late. Everyone brings up the FBI's 12" requirement. BAH! Plenty of BGs have been killed with less. I'm using an FN FiveSeven for a drawer gun now, loaded with VMAX, because I've seen what a 9mm ball and 5.56 ball will do in a room made of wood studs/sheet rock. If the AR15 is your go to gun, I'd use a round that LIMITs penetration. The BG hit at 15-20' (and that might be too far in your home) WILL NOT know the difference...and you have follow up shots to further incapacitate. The field...and your home...are two very different battlefields. Think it about it this way. With the AR-15 its much easier to aim and hit with than a handgun. Your chances of putting rounds on target is much higher therefore less chances of even having to deal with overpenetration in the first place. |
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Quoted:Sorry, but when you're standing in front of the jury/judge and explaining to them that the AR-15 was the ONLY weapon available for defense and that you chose the FMJ for penetration (injured neighbors to the right) it will be too late. Everyone brings up the FBI's 12" requirement. BAH! Plenty of BGs have been killed with less. I'm using an FN FiveSeven for a drawer gun now, loaded with VMAX, because I've seen what a 9mm ball and 5.56 ball will do in a room made of wood studs/sheet rock. If the AR15 is your go to gun, I'd use a round that LIMITs penetration. The BG hit at 15-20' (and that might be too far in your home) WILL NOT know the difference...and you have follow up shots to further incapacitate.
The field...and your home...are two very different battlefields. Already has been covered quite a few times that a .223 fmj will have less penetration power after going through dry wall than commonly used handgun rounds or 12ga 00. So your injured neighbor should be glad you used that .223, if you used a handgun or shotgun in that scenario, they might be dead. |
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What makes you think that a home encounter is more likely to be head-on? Are the criminals more stupid and like to present easy targets in this scenario?
I also disagree with your point that a ruined arm WILL stop an intruder. Sure - it might, but are you sure about that? There's always the off chance that this is a mega-doped up guy that won't care. Did you see that on PP presentation of the guy that was shot 12 times or so with .40S&W and .223, yet still fought the officers when they cuffed him? An intruder coming into or being accosted in the home by the resident is likely to be a face to face encounter. Criminals are not all that smart and don't think about tactics and such topics. I've been dealing with them turds for 30+ years and the odds are overwhelming that if you do get burgled it won't be a crazed pyscho or Albert Einstein. Anyone that whacked out on drugs or a mental disability isn't likely to be effected by most civilian handheld weapons. These are the types that (in pre-taser days) would take 4 to 6 cops to subdue them because they had no response to pain compliance measures (plus increased adrenaline and altered reality) that work well on "normal" people. Your average crook who's likely to break into your house will take a timeout when a chunk of his arm gets blown off. A full grown prairie dog's circumference is about the size of a man's forearm. If a high velocity .22 bullet can rip a dog to shreds at 200 yards, think what it could do to an arm at pointblank range. I've thought about that many, many times while hunting, keeps my mind on safety. 
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"...odds are ..." "...likely ..." "Your average crook ..." I don't like planning for a best-case, "average" scenario. You never know when you'll be the lucky guy that gets the nutjob busting down your door. It also doesn't take an Einstein to figure out real quick that presenting a full-frontal target for the homeowner is not conducive to staying alive. I'd be high-tailing it behind a wall, around a corner, anything. Having a varmint bullet will limit your options quite significantly in those cases. |
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Wasn't there some study about violent criminals (the type to use firearms as opposed to just wave them around) that covered this?
1. Criminals are more likely to have been in a shootout before than a cop, and so are cooler under fire. 2. Criminals believe that cops practice all the time, so they do too. As a result, their hit rate is somewhat higher than an "average" police officer. (I'll leave out the usual DC cops can't shoot stuff here - 17 rounds at < 7 yards at someone who just robbed your date, all were misses, it's nice to be special) Preparing for the best case may not be the best option here. I'll assume that anyone I am forced to shoot at in self defense is someone meeting criteria 1 and 2. A V-MAX or similar round will eff someone up. Hornady's TAP loadings use a varmint bullet. But M193 also has that steep drop in lethality after penetrating a barrier, but have better soft target penetration, and will split at the cannelure above certain speeds. "In general" would be the disclaimer, as would "mil-spec" in terms of the M193. Super thick jacketed or bi-metal jacketed ball ammo will behave differently. I personally like the box of truth web site for all this stuff. As far as using 5.7mm ammo, that poster does realize it's effectively just a loaded down .223 with a varmint bullet, right? Nothing wrong with that either. There is no sure way unless you're using a 20mm autocannon, so everything below that is a collection of compromises. At least you can choose your own. |
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I guarantee you when that 55 gr VMAX hits your arm the threat will be stopped. Your day and your arm will ruined. And if the threat isn't stopped will you bring my family and me back from the dead as the perp pulls the trigger with his good hand? I didn't think so. We've seen ALL too often that some criminals even with severe damage will continue to fight even when torn up bad -either they are on drugs or are just tough hombres. The FBI Miami shootout is one of the classic examples. I don't rely on someone's 'guarantee' that a painful wound to the arm will STOP any threat. I'll choose ammo that NO MATTER the situation it WILL penetrate deep enough to get to the vital blood carrying organs. |
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The wounding capacity of the 5.7 is similar to a 9mm FMJ bullet at best.
As far as using 5.7mm ammo, that poster does realize it's effectively just a loaded down .223 with a varmint bullet, right? Nothing wrong with that either. Agreed. Though that's blasphemy in some areas of this site. |
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Quoted: Where's that? Speak, so that I may evangelize the heretics with a message of truth. Quoted: Agreed. Though that's blasphemy in some areas of this site.Quoted: The wounding capacity of the 5.7 is similar to a 9mm FMJ bullet at best.As far as using 5.7mm ammo, that poster does realize it's effectively just a loaded down .223 with a varmint bullet, right? Nothing wrong with that either.  |
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The wounding capacity of the 5.7 is similar to a 9mm FMJ bullet at best.
As far as using 5.7mm ammo, that poster does realize it's effectively just a loaded down .223 with a varmint bullet, right? Nothing wrong with that either. We can always count on The Doc to bring actual facts to the discussion. FN 5.7 x 28 mm ________________________________________ Several papers have described the incredibly poor terminal performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm projectiles fired by the FN P90: ––Dahlstrom D, Powley K, and Gordon C: “Wound Profile of the FN Cartridge (SS 190) Fired from the FN P90 Submachine Gun". Wound Ballistic Review. 4(3):21-26; Spring 2000. ––Fackler M: "Errors & Omissions", Wound Ballistic Review. 1(1):46; Winter 1991. ––Fackler M: "More on the Bizarre Fabrique National P-90", Wound Ballistic Review. 3(1):44-45; 1997. ––FBI Academy Firearms Training Unit. FBI Handgun Ammunition Tests 1989-1995. Quantico, U.S. Department of Justice––Federal Bureau of Investigation. ––Hayes C: “Personal Defense Weapons—Answer in Search of a Question”, Wound Ballistic Review. 5(1):30-36; Spring 2001. ––Roberts G: “Preliminary Evaluation of the Terminal Performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm 23 Grain FMJ Bullet Fired by the New FN P-90 , Using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant”, AFTE Journal. 30(2):326-329, Spring 1998. The current 31 gr SS-190 FMJ bullet has nearly adequate penetration, but the wound resulting from this projectile has a relatively small permanent crush cavity, as well as an insignificant temporary stretch cavity. Although the 5.7 x 28 mm penetrates soft body armor, wounding potential is at best like a .22 LR or .22 Magnum. Even 9mm NATO FMJ makes a larger wound––and we are all aware of the awe inspiring incapacitation potential of M882 ball from the M9...... A few large U.S. LE agencies adopted 5.7 mm weapons––after being involved in several OIS incidents with P90's, 5.7 mm usage in these agencies plummeted as a result of the poor terminal performance. It is all basic physics and physiology. Look at the surface areas in contact with tissue for 9 mm FMJ and JHP compared to 5.7 mm. When both are point forward, the 9 mm FMJ crushes more tissue than the 5.7 mm; for the short time that the 5.7 mm is at FULL yaw, it crushes a bit more tissue than the 9 mm FMJ. At no time does the 5.7 mm crush more tissue than the expanded 9 mm JHP––even when the 5.7 mm FMJ is at full yaw, an expanded 9 mm JHP crushes more tissue. The relatively small temporary cavities produced by both the 9 mm and 5.7 mm projectiles are not likely to cause significant injury to the majority of elastic structures of the body. As with any penetrating projectile, if either a 9 mm or 5.7 mm bullet is ideally placed to cause significant damage to the CNS or major cardiovascular organs, a fatal result is likely. 
The P90 can definitely penetrate soft body armor, but then so can 9 mm AP rounds. The greater momentum of 9 mm bullets allow them to defeat vehicles and other intermediate barriers better than the 5.7 mm bullets. Standard 9 mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP JHP loads crush more tissue, offer ideal penetration, and are equally likely to not exit the opponent as the 5.7 mm. 5.56 mm and 6.8 mm weapons offer significantly superior terminal effects compared to 5.7 mm. Bottom line—what does the P90 offer that is not already available? |
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FWIW, I load my mags with TAP alternating with FMJ and don't plan on shooting the bg just once and then asking him if that hurt. Different rounds in the same mag are the hallmark of the armchair warrior. Pick a load and know its limitations... dont guess what is the next round in the chamber. |
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Where's that? Speak, so that I may evangelize the heretics with a message of truth. Quoted:
Agreed. Though that's blasphemy in some areas of this site.Quoted:
The wounding capacity of the 5.7 is similar to a 9mm FMJ bullet at best.
As far as using 5.7mm ammo, that poster does realize it's effectively just a loaded down .223 with a varmint bullet, right? Nothing wrong with that either.
Let me know when you head to the FN forum so I can throw some popcorn in the microwave. 
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FWIW, I load my mags with TAP alternating with FMJ and don't plan on shooting the bg just once and then asking him if that hurt. Different rounds in the same mag are the hallmark of the armchair warrior. Pick a load and know its limitations... dont guess what is the next round in the chamber. Thank you Dr. Phil. Yes you are right I am an armchair warrior, I have never shot at any living thing with less than four legs. |
| I would keep the vmax but load the mag with every other round being green tip M855. This topic comes up all the time and many posts ensue with much arguing. For home defense a round that expands or fragments is good, also a round that penetrates is good. Load your mag with both. Keep shooting double taps until threat is neutralized is my advice. |
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I would keep the vmax but load the mag with every other round being green tip M855. This topic comes up all the time and many posts ensue with much arguing. For home defense a round that expands or fragments is good, also a round that penetrates is good. Load your mag with both. Keep shooting double taps until threat is neutralized is my advice. Here's an idea - why not one round that will do both? |
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I would keep the vmax but load the mag with every other round being green tip M855. This topic comes up all the time and many posts ensue with much arguing. For home defense a round that expands or fragments is good, also a round that penetrates is good. Load your mag with both. Keep shooting double taps until threat is neutralized is my advice. Here's an idea - why not one round that will do both? Barnes XXX ? |
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I would keep the vmax but load the mag with every other round being green tip M855. This topic comes up all the time and many posts ensue with much arguing. For home defense a round that expands or fragments is good, also a round that penetrates is good. Load your mag with both. Keep shooting double taps until threat is neutralized is my advice. Here's an idea - why not one round that will do both? Barnes XXX ? TAP 65 grain barrier. |
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The wounding capacity of the 5.7 is similar to a 9mm FMJ bullet at best.
As far as using 5.7mm ammo, that poster does realize it's effectively just a loaded down .223 with a varmint bullet, right? Nothing wrong with that either. BUT THE 9mm FMJ OVERPENETRATES...stay on target with OP's question(s). Been down range, vehicles, stone/masonry buildings/wood sheetrock rooms. BULLSHIT. .556 FMJ, 9mm FMJ goes through A LOT of things and keeps on going. The 5.7 vmax round DOES NOT perform as the 9mm FMJ round does. Zhukov...no disrepsect intended, but wanted to ensure we're not comparing apples and oranges and that we determine that a polymer tipped load will certainly penetrate LESS than an FMJ load the VAST majority of the time. |
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Quoted: 5.7 with a VMAX bullet won't overpenetrate. In fact, it'll just plain out not penetrate much of anything - including the bad guy. It's a questionable enough proposition in .223, but in 5.7 that becomes an absolute joke.Zhukov...no disrepsect intended, but wanted to ensure we're not comparing apples and oranges and that we determine that a polymer tipped load will certainly penetrate LESS than an FMJ load the VAST majority of the time. As far as .223 through sheetrock is concerned - yes, .223 will still penetrate a decent amount of sheetrock, but does it retain enough momentum to seriously injure someone? |
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