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Posted: 11/27/2005 6:06:30 PM EDT
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I just read some of the best mod/worst mod stuff and a bunch of people were baggin on weaponlights. Who on here has and USES a weapon light, my first tour in Iraq I didn't go there with one, as soon as I could I ordered one and it was the best mod to my service rifle, made the job so much easier and proficient, and not once was a haji able to pop off a round while I had that thing going. My platoon is doing a big buy from surefire to put one in each team. Weaponlights are a must if you are in urban combat of any type. Now with that said, what are the arguments against one in URBAN COMBAT? I understand that if your humpin through the bush you don't want a bright light anywere near you, I am talking in a MOUT situation |
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NOT MY OPINION: But I have heard people who fear a badguy will shoot at the light, "it's better to stay hidden, than give him a target" type of thing. I dont know how true that would be because even my G2 handheld w/ 60 lumens (IIRC) hurts the eyes. I couldnt imagine trying to shoot at someone with a light that has twice as many if not more lumens in my face. |
| yeah, I've blasted y one of 350's or something like that, I couldn't see for about 10 minutes after that one! I guess I just thought it was wierd that people would not want one, I never looked at it from a civilian standpoint. I can't imagine doing the job without one anymore. |
Did you use a momentary switch to provide "bursts" of light, or did you just turn it on and leave it before clearing a building? I'm going to add a light to the handguard of my KISS rifle, and wonder if I need the ability to use the momentary button. |
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Can't shoot what you can't see. Personally a weapon light is a good idea for anyone that uses a gun for home defense. I have weapon lights on 3 guns which are all my home defense weapons. The Remington 870 has a Surefire 618FA, Glock 21 has a Insight M6, and the AR15 has a Pentagon MS2 on it. There is a reason why Military/Special Forces and Police/SWAT as well as other groups use these lights and it is not because it is a fad or just the cool thing to do. It is to be able to identify your target before you pull the trigger. |
Let me put it this way. Do you see all those movies with the guys running around with the light on constantly? That is the WRONG way to use a weapon mounted light. You need a momentary switch. My advice to anyone using an AR for duty/defensive use is to have a suitable weapon mounted light (Maglights of any ilk don't cut it) and seek some proffessional training. Your first carbine class should have a small no/low light segment to introduce you to the concept. Your second course should spend alot of time on the use of lights. |
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For my use, in a home/self-defense situation, the light is an essential tool for a critical task - target identification. Not shooting a late arriving family member (or one of their friends) is extremely high on my priority list. And you don't simply flick it on and leave it on. That removes one of the intense light's advantages. I do, however, like the light I have on my bedside Glock 22 - the M3LED. It has a low intensity green LED navigation light that can be momentarily or continuosly engaged. This light, used properly, does not attract attention, but allows for navigating of a toy-strewn hallway without breaking your neck or audibly alerting others to your position. |
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A weapon light, either attached or handheld, is probably the most important accessory for both handguns and long guns! As was mentioned above there is a right way and a wrong way to use them so seek out good training. Those who say a weaponlight is useless or would get you killed are only showing their ignorance.  |
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A thread here says it's better to run TWO lights in stead of one, quoting "two is one, one is none", since bulbs can break, batteries can go dead, etc. I got a SureFire Scout light to try the two-light setup. My MRP with a 9V M96x was no lightweight before, now it seems heavier than my heavy ass HK91  I could barely hold up the weapon to do a mag change without tucking in the stock between the arm and body.
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I haven't been to the sandbox - so my comments are not directed at that, but LE use. Can't see what you can't hit, and you gotta make sure that dark shape is an imminent threat, or not. IMO, weapon-mounted lights are a must-have for long-guns. I use the heck out of mine and they are quite literally lifesavers when used properly. SF |
You should think about investing in a sling. |
| I know the Marine Corps uses the "turn it on and leave it on unitll you are done" method for indoor, dynamic use. Thought being you are so loud and so close the will see you anyway, intermittent use or not. Might as well not have the light turn off accidentally as you enter a dark room. |
Have you ever done any kind of CQB mission? Were you ever in the Marine Corps? Have you ever gone into harms way? I have a feeling that the answers are going to sound like that Capital One "No" comercial with David Spade....No, No, and No. You should really learn to "stay in your lane" You just gotta love the kids on this site who have NEVER done anything, yet know everything. There is such a thing as a dynamic entry and a covert entry. The way you use light in a dynamic entry is quite different than how you would use light in a covert entry. |
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I made a simple statement of fact with no persoanl opinion. I am all for intermittent lighting. I am also not a kid. I will leave it at that. Would the fact the Marine Corp uses permanant on lighting for regular infantry mean more or less if I were in the Marine Corp in your opinion? |
| DevL, I don't know what unit you're with, how you train etc. But I never, not once left the light on during an entire clear or search. Do you use this method every time? I understand that if you're crashing around and what not, it doesn't really matter, but you loose precious battery life, and if there happened to be a sniper watching, he picks you with your light on. I don't see it as wise to leave the light on. |
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You may have been in the "Corp", but you were obviously not in my beloved CORPS! As to use of white lights in MOUT or any type of CQB, there really is no downside if used with good techniue. Some tips: Light on, light off and move. Not constant on. Of course, once you have a threat, keep them lit up until they are no longer a threat. Avoid white light NDs. Don't backlight your partner or yourself. Scan using a muzzle depressed ready position. SF USMC 89-95 5811 5814 6162 8531 |
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I have a Surefire weaponlight forend on my duty 870 as well as a Speed Feed stock with a pistol grip and I wouldn't do without either. When they started letting us install these, guys (other officers) would look at you like you were crazy for installing them. But, until you go serve warrants in some meth lab or are clearing houses and looking for suspects in the dark, you wouldn't have it any other way. I just recently bought a Surefire 962 weaponlight for my duty AR. I work night shifts and until I got the weaponlight for my AR, I still used my shotgun when I had a rifle in the trunk, just becasue it had a weaponlight. 
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DevL, You answer a question with a question. This is something I would expect from a Lawyer or a Politition. Why not answer the questions? "Would the fact the Marine Corp uses permanant on lighting for regular infantry mean more or less if I were in the Marine Corp in your opinion?" [mentoring mode] First, the Marine Corps (note the "s" on the end) is not a Marine Corp. -A Corp is a abriviation for Corporation. -A Corps is a large military unit or formation. A Corp / Corporation is a common form of business organization, and one which is chartered by a state and given many legal rights as an entity separate from its owners. -The Marine Corps is a Corps of Warriors, not a Corporation of computer geeks. There is a HUGE difference between "First Hand Knowledge" and "Regurgitating something you read on the internet". I'm not here to flame you. I have read several of your posts and numerous times you pass bad info. I believe the reason for this is you are regurgitating information that you have read somewhere. If you had FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE of the infomation you posted you would know that: -The Army has regular and light infantry, the mission of the Marine Corps is very different from that of the Army's mission. The Marine Corps does not have "light" and "regular" infantry units. -There is a big difference between what is written in a manual and the tactics that are actually used by the guys who are kicking doors. As member "a38337" has already pointed out you are wrong. You can read all the infomation you want. Reading informatoin on the internet or in a book does NOT replace real world experience. Instead of trying to pass yourself off as someone who has been there and done that, maybe you should limit the info you post things that you have FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE of or, if it's information you gotten from the internet or third person info it would be wise to note that in your post. This is where "Staying in your lane" will save you a lot of grief [/mentoring mode] |
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Umm the first time I typed Corps it had an S. Then I misspelled it the second time. Thank you Mr. Speeling Nazi. No I was not in the Marine Corps. I have several friends that were. Most of them had an MOS that started with 03. I pick their brains about the Corps because I did not get a chance to enter which I will discuss in a sec. The discussion of what was taught with low light cam up in a conversation because I was watching something on TV about MOUT training for the Marines and noted that they specifically mentioned that the light was turned on upon entering the building and not turned off till it was cleared. I found that odd and asked if he learned the same technique. He replied that that was what he was taught as well. I thought it was interesting and restated it in this thread. That is all. Why are you even here? The last time you came in and got in on a thread you acted like a baby and deleted all your own posts because people had differences of opinion. Like a little kid that gets mad and takes his ball home. Perhaps you should stick to the 10-8 forums if you dotnt accept the fact there are people whos mind wont be changed and will always believe differently that you. All you can do is try to put out discussion and hope the intelligent people will listen and gain insight from your knowledge. I would liek to know what bad info I apss along that you take so much offense to. This is a discussion forum. It is not a dictation forum. We discuss aspects of whatever then try to reach mutual, intelligent conclusions.... sometimes we dont. If you have something to say that is counter to what I believe I will adopt your line of thinking without a seconds hesitation after I try to shoot holes in your ideas if they are counter to mine but still stand up afterward. That is what intellectual debate is all about. As for myself, no I did not join the Marine Coprs. I made too much money to devote 4 years of my life, I had a new Corvette payment to make, credit card bills to pay, etc. I tried for two years in a row to join the Marine Reserves for a 6 year stint. People coming out of their 4 years get first dibs and I only wanted a combat MOS as they are stationed here in Houston where I live. After that the recuiter tried to pull some slime bag shit to trick me into signing up for 4 years and "switch" to reserves to get an earlier place in line and I could "just not go to boot" if I didnt get the few slots available as I would still be signed up for 4 years and it would "be ok." That was the last time I talked to them, then 9-11 happened after that summer. I had no intention of spending a year or more overseas at my age. I still wanted to do something for my community that allowed me to stay stateside and still have a family so I sucked up being poor and went back to college to get a degree in criminal justice from the #1 criminal justice college in the south so I could join a federal law enforcement agency. I have had a 4.0 GPA since I went back to school for the past years and will graduate Magna Cum Laude after next semester. So no, as of yet I have not been in the military nor law enforcement, but i will be. I did not want to settle for a local LE position because of the lack of professionalism and money. I am as old as you are. I did not start off in this field when I was 18 like you because i thought money meant more than doing what you love and devotion to your community when I was younger. I am not a fat computer jockey, nor a punk teenage kid. I am not the enemy here. If you have info you want to share please do but please drop the condesending attitude to the general readership here and me specifically. This is a public community forum. We all feel free to speak. Often we are wrong and need our ideas corrected. If the only people who were allowed to speak were "been there done that" types we would be the 10-8 forums and AR15.com would not exist. Sure some of the ideas that people express are exasperating at times, but you have to have a thicker skin and just keep plodding along trying to point people in the right direction. If you cant do that then perhaps you should not upset yourself by coming here. |
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Back to the original post - I have heard many arguments against lights on weapons. They are all similar: the bad guy will shoot the light. The anti-light people seem to think this is written in stone (bad guys sees light - shoots with unerring accuracy at whatever is behind it). Most people who live in the real world know this is BS and know that lights on weapons are a good thing. I think any agency or unit that doesn't put white lights on their long guns is being negligent. |
You mean like this?  Soldiers searching caves with weapon mounted lights.... (take from: www.angelfire.com/ wizard/apollo0/rep10-2.html) |
| you dont have to keep it on at all times....when you see a dark figure spot him and if bad, a few short pulls of the trigger and a few rds later problem solved...if when you spotted him with the light and found out it was your grandpa who lives next door just trying to get some meds so he can sleep better at 2am...well you just thank god for surefire.(true story). |
| Like a sling- I see a light as a necessity on a fighting carbine/rifle, even on a "KISS" no-frills beater (i.e. "Trunk Gun"). How you choose to employ the light is your business. Filters, nav LEDs, opaque covers, disable switches and blocks for the pressure pads weren't invented for nothing. |
Thats some tight quarters in that cave. Those dudes rock!! Thanks forest.. |
Covert entry--intermittent light use followed by movement. Dynamic Entry--Light on when you're not going to be backlighting the team, leave it on, move fast. Or at least thats what Bobby Schneider tells me. 
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I use the six volt SureFire M95 series with the 65 Lumen's bulb installed and it is plenty enough light for any CQB situation... The 65 lumen bulb also allows 1 hour of continuous use where the 120 lumen bulb only allows 20 minutes of continuous use... Ive tried using the 9 volt M96 series that has the 120 lumen bulb that will last up to an Hour with continuous use but didn't like the projected "tight" light pattern in close quarters... I also didn't care for the over all size of the M96 either, it was awkward and "in the way" when attached to the side of my carbines forearm rail... |
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" I did not want to settle for a local LE position because of the lack of professionalism and money" by Devl Wow, that might be one the most arrogant & moronic statements I have ever read on ARFCOM. Especially coming from somebody who has done nothing himself to warrant such arrogance. |
IMO, A good dependable weapons light is a "must have" for any home defense or LE/Military QCB weapon... Common sense, you need to be able to identify you target... As for the light being a "bad thing", it all depends on how you go about using it... |
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Anyone in this day and age who is against a weapon light is out of step with the times. Picture this, back in the 50's and 60's and 70's when NVG technology was limited, but the U.S.Army knew future conflicts would be a 24 hr fight and not just dawn till dusk. They did crazy shit, like put 1MM Candle power Xenon searchlights mounted on our Main Battle tanks. The Idea was to Illuminate you target long enough to ID it, and kill it, then you shut it off and moved to another position. Another technique was for a wing tank to light up a bad guy while you kill him, Bad guy dies, wing tank kills his light and moves, you move. Since then Thermal technology has replaced the need for big ass lights on tanks. These are known as a Techniques. Nobody Baja'd arond the field all night with the light turned on....  These techniques are as valid today as they were back then. Without technique lots of things work improperly. jerking a trigger, Bad technique Not tac loading during a lull..bad technique poor or improper fighting stance...poor technique running around all night on a patrol with your weapon light on... Bad technique Again, like anything in life, it's not the tool as much as how you use it. Bottom line, is like others have said, if you can't see it or ID it, you can't shoot it. Weapon's lights are good...darkness bad..
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lecherojr, Sorry for the hi-jack / mentoring lesson......Let's get back on track I don't think anyone could come up with a good argument AGAINST using a weapon mounted light on either their primary or secondary weapon in a Military / Law Enforcement / Self Defense enviornment. The most important thing in any deadly force engagement is it locate and identify the threat / target. A majority of deadly force engagements happen during the night hours or in a dark location (ie. abandon building, houses that have the shades closed, large buidlings, warehouses, etc, etc). I'm currently a plain clothes Detective and I generally work during the day, and a majority of the time when I have to deploy my carbine or my pistol, I'm in a dark area (ie. drug house with all the blinds closed, in a basement, a utilies room in a large building, a warehouse, large garage, sheds, out buildings, etc, etc, etc). I carry a Glock 19 w/ a Surefire X200 in a Blade-Tech holster and a Surefire E2e with me all day everyday. On my SWAT carbine I use a Surefire 961c / 962c (9 volt). A quality light on a Military / LEO / Self Defense primary and/or secondary weapon is the single most important accessory you can have. |
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