Armory Sponsor
Posted: 5/17/2009 9:30:19 PM EDT
|
Ok, I recently got in the market for an additional armor plate. The purpose of my armor would be to fit in the trunk of a patrol car and only come out if something has gone very wrong. I had one level IV ceramic plate that I purchased before shipping to iraq in 2004 when there was a shortage on the army's end. Before I left Dix I learned that all soldiers issued IBAs by army would be required to have plates in them before they were shipped into iraq from kawait. I took the level IV plate I had and sent it home. Back to present, in addition to only having one plate being stupid it also unbalances your weight. My plate carrier would also have several pouches in the front and only one in the back for a camel pack for the off chance I had a chance to drop it in. I began researching plates and found a number of options here and on light fighter. I take all that I read on the internat with a grain of salt but I pretty much learned Steel is great multihit but 55gr 556 goes through, ceramic is good but probably only good for one hit and it is fragile (not good for something that spends time in the trunk,), composite seems lightests and strongest but is expensive. I also found some random stuff about composite armor and heat but it mostly applied to soft spectra which quality can be different from one lot to another. Hard dyneema did not seem to be an issue. In fact I found videos on youtube of the stuff being set on fire. Since 5.56, 5.45, 7.62 (both flavors) are a lot more likely in the US than AP rounds I decided steel was probably out. The thought of dropping 2X8lbs alone on plates on top of my almost 30lbs of gear and poor supporting shoes also did not sound good. Since body armor protects so little of your body it seems hardly worth it (yes my knees and back took a pounding for a year in the sandbox and my armor never got tested.)
Doing some searching I found a bunch of sites that sell stuff that Israel uses. That all being taken with a grain of salt the fact that it actually ships from Israel helps. From what I have learned in the past most everything combat related in Israel gets battle tested. I figured it wouldnt be any worse than Kejo steel armor. I ordered a 10X12 dyneema plate. It shipped and I got the notice from the post office 3 days later. I picked it up in a plastic envelope and the first thing I noticed was how ligth the envelope was. I opened it up and it seems nice for what I paid just under $200 total. Of course I cant afford to test it so it will got in the back slot in my vest. Here are some pics. Level III Dyneema compared to the Level IV Ceramic 
Thickness, it is a little thicker. 
Odd part about this one the outer cover made of kordura is removable and opens with velcro. 
Sure this is what everyone wants to see... weight This is the ceramic plate weighing in at 6lbs 5.7oz 
And drum roll the Dyneema plate weighs in at 3lbs 4.5oz. Meaning two of these weigh less than 1 of the ceramic ones. 
Two oncovered pics 
|
| My only bitch is that it is perfectly square. This means that some carries will not play well with it. That is not my issue but you can see the edges are curled a bit where it was probably slammed around in shipping. I am wondering if it could be cut to match the profile of normal sapi plates or if that would cause fraying and peeling. I have also considered wrapping duct tape around the edges just to make sure if it gets bumped around it doesnt peel or unravel. Other than that I will be saving my penies for another one and replace the ceramic plate I have. |
|
Downside of HDPE L-III plates like this:
1. Will not stop any M855 "green tip" ammo 2. If they go over 160-170deg F, they lose their ballistic integrity. I.e. truck of a car in the Southwest during the summer. Other parts of the country may hit this, too. FYI, the Small/Medium Eagle Plate Carrier will NOT work with that rectangular plate in the rear pocket. You'll need the L/XL for a 10x12 rectangular plate. |
|
Am not too worried about green tip ammo as much since it is harder to find and much more expensive now. Some of the composite plates will stop it but the one I have has not been tested for it. The heat issue isnt too much what I am worried about either since it only gets around 105 here max and would be hard pressed to hit 160-170 in the trunk. From what I have read mostly the heat issue is with the soft composite laminates like spectra and less with dyneema in its hard form. Also the plate has fit in both the carriers I have tried it in. One is a standard plate carrier like the blackhawk one and the other is a Diamondback tactical OTV shell. I would like to know if the thing will unravel if cut with a hacksaw or bandsaw though. If I had to fit it in another carrier it looks like it would be easy to lop off the two top corners. Afraid to do it though and have it unravel or something.
On a side note looking at their site I would really like these in composite. They would fit perfectly in my DBT carrier. 
|
|
Quoted:
The heat issue isnt too much what I am worried about either since it only gets around 105 here max and would be hard pressed to hit 160-170 in the trunk. From what I have read mostly the heat issue is with the soft composite laminates like spectra and less with dyneema in its hard form. HDPE is HDPE, regardless of whether it's called Spectra, GoldFlex or Dyneema. As for the ballistic issue with heat, I don't know what you've read, but I know what I've heard from several manufacturers on the issue. But it's your life, not mine...I am telling you what manufacturer warnings have indicated. You might rethink your trunk temperature. A 105 day can easily hit 140+ temps in the car. How hot is it in your car or car trunk? Here's what I did. I bought an Oregon Scientific RMR382/BLRBK Wireless Indoor/Outdoor Thermometer with Self-
Setting Atomic Clock from Fry's Electronics for $23 and set it up according to instructions. The outdoor thermometer reads up to 140F, but the indoor tops out at 122F. In the morning before work, I reset the min/max temperature and placed the "outdoor" thermometer in the passenger compartment and the "indoor" atomic clock with thermometer in the trunk. When I got to work, I parked the car in the sun. After work I checked the maximum temperature. Inside the passenger compartment, the temperature had reached 130 while in the trunk it was a cool 120. The official high for the cloudless day was 95. I've performed the experiment many times now with similar results, sometimes higher and sometimes lower Vehicle Heating Dynamics (about 1/2 way down the page) As for the unraveling question, I don't know. |
| Many HRET guys have never had any problems with their dyneema plates in their trunks and it is mfg within spec. The desert can easily get to 130 outside and much hotter in the conex boxes the plates are stored and shipped in. Composite plates have been widely used in iraq for a while now. The soft armor issue is the laminants and not the fabrics. In fact dyneema is rated for 100deg c (212f)working temp.. http://www.matbase.com/material/fibres/synthetic/dyneema/properties. There is a lot of bad information out there about different vest types and heat. I have personally seen a expired spectra vest (that spent a lot of time in a trunk displaying the extreme curling) stop multiple shots from 45apc and a 12g slug. Again it is me that is wearing this and not other people. I personally feel a lot better having something I dont have to worry about sloshing around and getting microscopic cracks that can only be seen through xrays. |
|
Still trying to figure out if these can be cut to make them "shooters cut" to work with more plate carriers.
Also, looking around the net I found the original SAPI plates weigh in just under 4lbs. They seem like they may be a better option for heat issues if that is the case. The only issue is that the army seems to have switched to all 6lb+ level IV ESAPI plates and no one makes the old stile lighter SAPI plates anymore. At least no where that they can be found anywhere near the same ballpark in price as these HDPE plates. |
|
Quoted: Still trying to figure out if these can be cut to make them "shooters cut" to work with more plate carriers. Also, looking around the net I found the original SAPI plates weigh in just under 4lbs. They seem like they may be a better option for heat issues if that is the case. The only issue is that the army seems to have switched to all 6lb+ level IV ESAPI plates and no one makes the old stile lighter SAPI plates anymore. At least no where that they can be found anywhere near the same ballpark in price as these HDPE plates. Heated wire setup? UHMWPE is plastic, after all. Seems like you could simply trace the outline of the panel you want and presto. Heated Wire cutter, DBA Foam Cutting tool:  DIY article here: http://www.siliconchip.com.au/cms/A_102846/article.html Another DIY site: http://www.public.iastate.edu/~orman/air/cutter/hotwire.html |
| Was looking at it and was worried at first about weakening the plate. However, seems like they use it for cutting all sorts of plastic without issues. Even saw where they use it for surf boards. Kind of cool. Wonder if it is possible to get the HDPE plates in bigger sheets and custom cut it into different shapes and sizes. |
|
The foam cutter is an intriguing idea, and I'd wondered the same thing about damaging the plate. My layperson's guess is that you might get some localized material weakness at the margins of the cut. The hot wire cuts a bit of foam without melting the whole thing.
If you got HDPE ballistic sheets, they'd probably be cuttable. The problem, I think, would be in curvature. Without a pre-curved sheet of HDPE, you'd get flat plates. Maybe a single sheet of constant curve would work, but I have no idea how you'd do multi curves for each plate without applying heat & ruining the material. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Am not too worried about green tip ammo as much since it is harder to find and much more expensive now. What about XM-193 or any M193? Almost every AR owner has some of that, and it penetrates hard armor better than M855. 193 goes through steel armor better then M855. The ballistic steel plates will stop M855 but 193 will go through. The HDPE will stop M193 but M855 will go through. |
|
Ok guys, I was shown this thread by a person on another board who I have been discussing armor with recently. I will warn you before you read the rest of this post that it may sound harsh; and that is due to my background. I work for a large defense contractor and I develop ballistic solutions. I am continually amazed by the amount of misinformation floating out there; and many times it just gets old.
I know everyone on AR15 was a space shuttle door gunner; and there is an ongoing “internet pecker size war,” and that you chose to assume that I’m also one of those people. If you do not want to believe me – that’s fine. I have nothing to prove to you. I typically shy away from threads like this because of the massive amounts of “fail” contained within; but I just couldn’t stand by on this one. I’ve responded to many statements below. I am happy to answer questions; but bear in mind; there are likely questions that you’ll ask that I cannot answer due to various agreements, trade secrets, etc. I will tell you right away if that is the case. OP: Can you take some close up pictures of the markings on the backface of the Dyneema panel? I would like to see where it says HBXX where the XX’s are numbers. Quoted:
ceramic is good but probably only good for one hit and it is fragile (not good for something that spends time in the trunk,), composite seems lightests and strongest but is expensive. You speak of ceramic as if it is antique china, and is equally fragile. While I certainly would not recommend throwing it around; ceramic is used as vehicle armor, where they are hit with rocks, and other road debris; and do not have a cracking problem. I assure you that I could give you a piece of ceramic, and a hammer, and it would amaze you at how much effort is required to break it. In addition, do not assume that ceramic would only be good for one shot – this depends on the quality of the ceramic and the construction of the armor. Quoted:
I also found some random stuff about composite armor and heat but it mostly applied to soft spectra which quality can be different from one lot to another. I tend to believe that Honeywell would disagree. Quoted:
In fact I found videos on youtube of the stuff being set on fire. Water is wet, grass is green, the sky is blue, and polyethylene can burn. Anything else new? Quoted:
Doing some searching I found a bunch of sites that sell stuff that Israel uses. That all being taken with a grain of salt the fact that it actually ships from Israel helps. From what I have learned in the past most everything combat related in Israel gets battle tested. Define “battle tested” for me please? Armor is tested to standard (or company / government / contract specific) tests before it is released to be sold. While I cannot comment on what how companies test their armor; I assure you it was rigorously tested in a laboratory, and the capability of the armor was well understood long before it was released for soldiers to wear. Quoted:
I paid just under $200 total. Where did you get this armor from? $200 seems like an awful good price – too good to be true. In addition, what specification does this armor conform to? Can the company provide independent test lab reports for verification? There are many UHMWPE imposters out there, and many shady companies as well. They tend to use Dyneema on the front / back ply, and the imposter UHMWPE in the center; but still sell the armor as 100% Dyneema or 100% Spectra. Not saying this is the case with your plates – but its been done in the past. Quoted:
From what I have read mostly the heat issue is with the soft composite laminates like spectra and less with dyneema in its hard form. Your statement about heat and composites does not make any sense, because you are not even discussing its impact on similar products. Honeywell, the company who manufactures Spectra-Shield manufactures many different types; some of their products are meant to be used in soft armor, while some of their other products are meant to be used in consolidated (i.e. "hard") form. The same is true of Dyneema; which is manufactured by DSM. Until you are comparing apples to oranges, which would be (for example) HB2 vs. SR-3124; your discussions about heat are irrelevant. Quoted:
I would like to know if the thing will unravel if cut with a hacksaw or bandsaw though. Your composite plate is made up of a number of individual plies of Dyneema. If you were to try to cut this with a bandsaw; it is very likely that you will pull a fiber or fray an edge; which would require the permanent removal of a (or multiple) layer(s) of Dyneema to fix. This would also reduce the ballistic integrity of the panel. Quoted:
The soft armor issue is the laminates and not the fabrics. In fact dyneema is rated for 100deg c (212f)working temp.. http://www.matbase.com/material/fibres/synthetic/dyneema/properties. And you are continuing to add bad information to the mix. First, your information was not from DSM Dyneema’s press releases; rather it was from an internet database that anyone could produce. Second, right in the sheet you give it states (under the remarks section): Data are for untwisted yarn. Do not make the mistake that Dyneema produces one type of “yarn,” and that the only application of Dyneema “yarn” is for ballistic vests. Your website that you provided with the intent of proving your point does not specify the type of fiber tested, nor does it state the test method used to achieve those results. By the way, the correct term for the material Dyneema produces is fibers, and the correct term for “laminates” is adhesive (or resin). You do correctly imply that there are two parts to Dyneema; the fibers and the adhesive. Both of these break down at differing temperatures. You cannot make an accurate assessment of when, or if, this would be a problem without doing a bit of research and testing. Sorry for the length – there was a lot here. ETA: Fixed gramatical error. |
|
Quoted: Ok guys, I was shown this thread by a person on another board who I have been discussing armor with recently. I will warn you before you read the rest of this post that it may sound harsh; and that is due to my background. I work for a large defense contractor and I develop ballistic solutions. I am continually amazed by the amount of misinformation floating out there; and many times it just gets old. Thank you good sir I have been enlightened. I don't know squat about this stuff, I'm glad you chimed in on this one. Very well written. Thanks CM 
|
|
Quoted:
I am continually amazed by the amount of misinformation floating out there; and many times it just gets old. Having worked for a number of years for a company that developed ballistic products, I do believe there is more erroneous information on the internet concerning armor vests and plates than any other subject. The depth and breadth of bad info is sometimes astounding. |
|
I have been watching this thread and at times it leaves me scratching my head and going HUH. I am by no means an expert and do not even claim to be a door gunner on the shuttle. I am just looking for some personal protection. Thanks Erik for stepping up and posting the info. I thought I would pass along some threads I have been watching for some type on plates. You will have to sign up to read them but well worth the time and effort. Some real world testing with some disturbing results. Be sure to read the complete threads as they are well worth the time. http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/440107306/m/2261001373/p/1 http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/440107306/m/5841000773/p/1 Now if you want a lightweight plate that will take care of almost everything but 7.62 AP rounds check this site out. Even M855 and M193. TAC3S is a level 3 stand alone hybrid made of steel and hard polyethylene layers. Make sure you watch the video of the product testing. http://www.armoredmobility.com/products_tac3s.php No they are not cheap, but how much is your life to yourself and family. From my understanding you do not have to be LEO or MIL to buy from them just present a copy of your CWP. One more good read is the education page. I try to read things with an open mind, but when you cite references to back it up hard not to believe. http://www.armoredmobility.com/education.php Now if someone can educate me on close contact shooting protection, I would appreciate it. I have seen some references to fibers actually melting in soft armor close contact shootings. |
|
As I've said before, you must be a member of Lightfighter to read those threads. If you join, I will warn you they do NOT suffer fools, at all, and will beat you down if you come across as some Internet fucktard. Be professional and courteous, and you should be OK.
Next, to the last poster asking about contact shots: Basically it was laminated and "hybrid" vests that were having an issue. Vests made of 100% WOVEN P-Armamids had no problems with contact shots. The issue had to do with the muzzle flash melting the laminate material (Dyneema, Spectra, UHMWPE, etc.), effectively reducing the layers and then the bullet would penetrate the vest. The FBI has some up with a testing protocol that incorporates contact-shots, and uses rounds that are of a high enough velocity to cause problems if any "melting" occurs. Thanks, Erik, for posting this. |
|
Quoted:
http://www.armoredmobility.com/products_tac3s.php No they are not cheap, but how much is your life to yourself and family. From my understanding you do not have to be LEO or MIL to buy from them just present a copy of your CWP. Anyone confirm the sales to non LEO or non MIL CWP holders? |
|
edited to remove rant
Now that my blood pressure has gone back down and I went for a nice long run it brings some things to light. First sorry for the rant, 1 I have always had issues with people that are offices that dont actually do the stuff monday morning quarterbackign and dictating what equipment and supplies we need. Makes most feel the same way when someone watches bad info getting passed around and waits until the end and goes in and says your an idiot. - might not be you but when I think of lab tester.... anyway. 2 there are very few good places for information out there on this stuff. You can see how many different places you can get information from on the net. I like information I can put my hands on or see because numbers are bad. You have issues with the bad info on ceramics - yes it is not too fragile but I have seen it broken in combat conditions. We had a whole conex full of the non-foam coated sapi plates that were broken. Not to long back I had a relativly minor accident which involved someone running into my car while on the way to an accident. No one was hurt, I was cleared of the incident, and the driver of the other vehicle didnt get in any trouble either... it happens. However, everything in my trunk was slung to one side even though the trunk wasnt hit. Now make that a little faster I worry about a plate being back there. Next there are a lot of body armor makers out there that makes their stuff look like the end all be all and very expensive. If dyneema plates really cost anywhere close to $1000 why do I see AMI plates for $425. You get it. Second chance vests having less layers of kevlar than vests of the same threat level from other makers and carrying higher prices (per an old tactical forums.com post). However, seeing a dyneema plate set on fire and then shot means a little bit more to me. Just like dragon skin taking 50 shots and then getting thrown out by NIJ yes not the whole story but still makes you think. My point with the battle tested was just that if something doesnt work right armies tend to get rid of it. Isreal has the budget and uses the armor enough to justify replacing large amounts of it if it does not work. This is probably not the first plate issued to them. Again if you have any answers to questions like the cutting one (how am I suppose to know what will happen I have never tried it before or seen if anyone else has). But seriusly how do you all cut the plates... looks like this one was cut by something at some point and that is probablty why it is so cheap. Anyway, I dont mind posting more pics of anything else that you all need to look at on it provided you dont try to make me look like an idiot. There is also mfg info further up on the page. Trust me if I had the budget I would test the hell out of this thing. |
|
Quoted:
edited to remove rant Now that my blood pressure has gone back down and I went for a nice long run it brings some things to light. First sorry for the rant, 1 I have always had issues with people that are offices that dont actually do the stuff monday morning quarterbackign and dictating what equipment and supplies we need. Makes most feel the same way when someone watches bad info getting passed around and waits until the end and goes in and says your an idiot. - might not be you but when I think of lab tester.... anyway. 2 there are very few good places for information out there on this stuff. You can see how many different places you can get information from on the net. I like information I can put my hands on or see because numbers are bad. You have issues with the bad info on ceramics - yes it is not too fragile but I have seen it broken in combat conditions. We had a whole conex full of the non-foam coated sapi plates that were broken. Not to long back I had a relativly minor accident which involved someone running into my car while on the way to an accident. No one was hurt, I was cleared of the incident, and the driver of the other vehicle didnt get in any trouble either... it happens. However, everything in my trunk was slung to one side even though the trunk wasnt hit. Now make that a little faster I worry about a plate being back there. Next there are a lot of body armor makers out there that makes their stuff look like the end all be all and very expensive. If dyneema plates really cost anywhere close to $1000 why do I see AMI plates for $425. You get it. Second chance vests having less layers of kevlar than vests of the same threat level from other makers and carrying higher prices (per an old tactical forums.com post). However, seeing a dyneema plate set on fire and then shot means a little bit more to me. Just like dragon skin taking 50 shots and then getting thrown out by NIJ yes not the whole story but still makes you think. My point with the battle tested was just that if something doesnt work right armies tend to get rid of it. Isreal has the budget and uses the armor enough to justify replacing large amounts of it if it does not work. This is probably not the first plate issued to them. Again if you have any answers to questions like the cutting one (how am I suppose to know what will happen I have never tried it before or seen if anyone else has). But seriusly how do you all cut the plates... looks like this one was cut by something at some point and that is probablty why it is so cheap. Anyway, I dont mind posting more pics of anything else that you all need to look at on it provided you dont try to make me look like an idiot. There is also mfg info further up on the page. Trust me if I had the budget I would test the hell out of this thing. Understand that the manufacturers of ballistic materials have millions of dollars invested in equipment to manufacture their products. I know that both lasers and HS water jets are used on some materials although I don't know about the specific one that you referred to. |
| I remember the original SAPI plates I was issued that was foam padded were a lot lighter (about 4lbs) than the ESAPI plates. I wonder if they are still made to those specs. Would offer a few advantages over the IV plates as far as weight and more practical than steel for 556 (or green tipped ss109). |
|
Quoted:
I remember the original SAPI plates I was issued that was foam padded were a lot lighter (about 4lbs) than the ESAPI plates. I wonder if they are still made to those specs. Would offer a few advantages over the IV plates as far as weight and more practical than steel for 556 (or green tipped ss109). AFAIK, standard the SAPI plates you refer to aren't issued any longer because they had problems with 7.62x54R ammo. The E-SAPI plate of the same sime would be about 7-8 lbs, as I recall. Additionally, government-issued SAPI plates are supposed to be demilled per DoD regulations and not surplused. Thus, any actual SAPI plates you find on the secondary market may very well be stolen. |
|
I wouldnt want surplus because I saw how they were handled IE slammed around. There are also a lot of soldiers out there that were simply sent home with their IBA and plates when the army when from green to tan and probably again from tan to ACU. They later seperated from the service and was told "we dont want those" and "we cant issue that again just keep it". I know of one person that had to go home a month early and was suppose to turn it in at Doha but was told "oh thats green we dont want that it will just go in a pile with the others." Later down the road I guess these people figured they needed money and sold them. The governments official response is they are stolen but they were told to keep them along with all the other crap that has been given away over the years.
I think paca makes a similar plate that is under 5lbs and is level III. I guess the 7.62X54 would not be in the rating for a lvl III plate but a realistic threat oversees. However, most of the weapons that fire that round would be utilized from longer ranges. A Level III plate should stop the round from a draganov at 600 yards unless it. With an urban environment you cant count on distances but most of the closer range shots by the enemy so called snipers were above the armor. Then you also had close ambushes with their belt fed machine gun that fire the same round. Probably a good switch to level IV and yes it weighs a lot more. I saw both the ceramic type plates broken but the level III foam ones seemed to be a lot better about it. |
|
Quoted:
edited to remove rant Again if you have any answers to questions like the cutting one (how am I suppose to know what will happen I have never tried it before or seen if anyone else has). But seriusly how do you all cut the plates... looks like this one was cut by something at some point and that is probablty why it is so cheap. Anyway, I dont mind posting more pics of anything else that you all need to look at on it provided you dont try to make me look like an idiot. There is also mfg info further up on the page. Trust me if I had the budget I would test the hell out of this thing. I'd have like to seen your rant - must feel pretty good to get pissed off at those willing to help you. Cutting? Waterjet. Enjoy. |
Nah just those that have access to info that 99% of us do not and then tries to make us look like an idiot by pointing it out. 
You say water jet and then leave us wondering... are you gona say how it is done or just make the guy look like an idiot? 
You pointed out all of this stuff is wrong but dont offer any additional info. Sorry but that is what I found annoying. Go back and read your post and tell me if it sounded like you were trying to help. Sorry if I sound like a dick but well it is what it is. 
|
|
Quoted:
You say water jet and then leave us wondering... are you gona say how it is done or just make the guy look like an idiot? There is not too much to share about waterjets - they are commonly used to cut metals, stone, composites, etc. Cutting speeds/feeds, and abrasive are trade secerets, and cannot be shared. However, any compentent waterjet operator can figure out the "window" of what will work. Quoted:
You pointed out all of this stuff is wrong but dont offer any additional info. Sorry but that is what I found annoying. Go back and read your post and tell me if it sounded like you were trying to help. You really didn't ask any questions, so I merely pointed out where you were astray. Recall: Quoted:
<snip> I will warn you before you read the rest of this post that it may sound harsh; and that is due to my background. I work for a large defense contractor and I develop ballistic solutions. I am continually amazed by the amount of misinformation floating out there; and many times it just gets old. I am happy to answer questions; but bear in mind; there are likely questions that you’ll ask that I cannot answer due to various agreements, trade secrets, etc. I will tell you right away if that is the case. |
|
Sounded like you meant that wasnt how it was done.
Anyway, found another source for the plates today and talked to the dealer a couple of times by email. Similar price with a possible price break on shipping for several plates. Anyone seen? http://www.israeli-weapons.com/ looks like the same Plasan Sasa plates as before. Plasan Sasa apparently does a lot of armor for the new US armored vehicles used in Iraq. They were not there when I was there so I dont know how good the armor is on the vehicles. The army is picky though so it probably had to go through some trials. Apples and oranges anyway because it isnt vehicle armor we are talking. |
|
Quoted:
Sounded like you meant that wasnt how it was done. Anyway, found another source for the plates today and talked to the dealer a couple of times by email. Similar price with a possible price break on shipping for several plates. Anyone seen? http://www.israeli-weapons.com/ looks like the same Plasan Sasa plates as before. Plasan Sasa apparently does a lot of armor for the new US armored vehicles used in Iraq. They were not there when I was there so I dont know how good the armor is on the vehicles. The army is picky though so it probably had to go through some trials. Apples and oranges anyway because it isnt vehicle armor we are talking. I have bought from him with good results. |
|
Quoted:
Sounded like you meant that wasnt how it was done. Anyway, found another source for the plates today and talked to the dealer a couple of times by email. Similar price with a possible price break on shipping for several plates. Anyone seen? http://www.israeli-weapons.com/ looks like the same Plasan Sasa plates as before. Plasan Sasa apparently does a lot of armor for the new US armored vehicles used in Iraq. They were not there when I was there so I dont know how good the armor is on the vehicles. The army is picky though so it probably had to go through some trials. Apples and oranges anyway because it isnt vehicle armor we are talking. Be careful with the plates available in that cut, because they apparently make them in both ceramic and polyethylene. The ones I was issued in my unit I was told are ceramic "Kerami", but the ones I've seen for sale on the net are composite. The ceramic ones are VERY high quality, if they are indeed ceramic (no way to really tell). |
|
I am going to order from him whenever I get an email back. He asked if I would be interested in becoming a wholesaler. When I replied that I was just buying for my own gear and wanted a set to go in the trunk of my patrol car he replied with a price list and said brothers in arms get a discount and no min order. He replied to my email twice on a suday very quickly, must be up all night in isreal.
KJB - were any of the ones you purchased shooters cut? It is hard to tell but it looks like the photo of the level III+ dyneema/spectra one might be. |
|
Quoted:
KJB - were any of the ones you purchased shooters cut? It is hard to tell but it looks like the photo of the level III+ dyneema/spectra one might be. I ordered a IIIA vest as an extra. It was a few years ago and I haven't worn it much but it is really top quality and the owner of the company contacted me before shipping it to verify my measurements and again a few weeks after received it to make sure I was happy. After seeing this thread I'm interested in some of the plates. I would like a shooters cut at least for the front. I have some stand alone level IV from Point Blank and they are about 9 pounds each! |
Armory Sponsor