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Posted: 2/8/2009 8:03:35 PM EDT
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A friend bought a tikka in 6.5x 55 Swede and has accuracy issues with factory ammo. I've seen quite a few people comment about the loaded ammunition here in the States saying it is really weak and not loaded to it's true capacity. Can anyone give me some load data on the 6.5 x 55? Are our reloading manuals loaded down because of all the surplus arms around or are they giving the real loads that this rifle can handle? Any information and loads would be appreciated. The guy in question has been reloading for a long time but asked me to find out about the loads in the manuals vs. what I've been hearing about them being weak loads and not maximizing all of the usage of such a fine cartridge.
Thanks, Bob |
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Yep, most manuals are loaded down for the small ring mausers, I believe Nosler has loads for modern guns. Maybe you're bullet is jumping too far, you might try a longer bullet, I think most chambering reamers for the Swede have the military dimensions with a long leade for the 140 or 160 grain bullet.
I've always wanted to have a modern 6.5 but I want a chamber set up for a 129 grain bullet or there abouts. |
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First and formost, have your friend check the groove diameter of the barrel. Many older 6.5 x 55s have a good land diameter, but the groove sizes is large. If it is large, then he really needs to look for oversized bullets––-he may need to go to cast bullets. The other thing that helps some is to use longer bullets. The flat based 140 grain bullets are pretty good for this. If he can find some 160 grain round nose bullets, these may help in the short range accuracy (up to 200 yards or so).
The Swede case is big for its caliber and designed to operate at lower pressures than modern cartidges. With a modern rifle chambered in the Swede, you can load to higher pressures, but you never really know if your ammo might be used in an older 96 Mauser or not. I certainly would not want to put a hot handload through my 1900 dated Swede. Avoid using light charges of slow powder like H4831. I tried a load that is listed in the Hornady manual, but it developed high pressure after the 140 grain bullet cleared the mouth of the case. The case wound up with external pressure dents in the shoulder (a very low pressure sign), while the primer flattened and blew and held the firing pin back (a very high pressure sign). I had to disassemble the bolt to remove the bit of primer. The more medium burning rate powders like IMR4895 do quite well in this cartidge. Remember, accuracy is not always achieved by running loads to near maximum. Bullet and barrel fit are the most important factors with respect to accuracy. |
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AVOID AMERICAN MADE BRASS AT ALL COSTS!!!
The U.S. companies FAIL to make properly sized 6.5x55 brass. Instead of making it correctly, they simply use a .30-06 sized "parent case" which has a smaller head diameter. Will it "work" in all 6.5 guns? Sure - but accuracy will SUCK. Frankly, your friend should mail that ammo back to the US comapny and demand his money back. Sadly, the only alternative is to pay for brass made correctly: Lapua or Norma. Quoted:
It is a new rifle he purchased last year. It's a Tikka t-3 lite. He doesn't have to worry about mixing his loads with an old rifle as he doesn't have one and doesn't intend to ever have one so that should make it easier for him. Thanks! |
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I have a Remington Classic in 6.5X55. I use Remington brass which is not just 30-06 brass. Different head size. I load 85 grain Sierra, 95 VMAX and 120 Speers for different applications. My 85 Sierra HP loads clock at about 3500 FPS with no high pressure signs. My 120 loads go at 3100 FPS. I've taken Prairie Dogs at over 400 yards so accuracy is there. The 95 VMAX has taken every thing from Prairie dogs to deer. I worked up my loads using H-380 and ended a few grains over the Sierra book max.
Just go slow and watch for signs of high pressure. |
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Quoted:
How can A 30.06 be the parent case? It was adopted in 1903 as a RN as the 1903 and in 1906 as a spitzer. The 6.5x55 was been around since 1894. The 8x57 was the parent case of the 30.06, the 6.5x55 is a completely different case altogether. More bad info!!!! Read the above again. The 6.5 is a different case, that has not stopped some of the American manufacturing companies from using 30-06 sized case stock to make "6.5x55". The problem is the dimensions are not quite correct. If you want correct casehead dimensions your best bet is to use European brass. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
How can A 30.06 be the parent case? It was adopted in 1903 as a RN as the 1903 and in 1906 as a spitzer. The 6.5x55 was been around since 1894. The 8x57 was the parent case of the 30.06, the 6.5x55 is a completely different case altogether. More bad info!!!! Read the above again. The 6.5 is a different case, that has not stopped some of the American manufacturing companies from using 30-06 sized case stock to make "6.5x55". The problem is the dimensions are not quite correct. If you want correct casehead dimensions your best bet is to use European brass. +1 |
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Thanks NVG and Skywarp - you both understood exactly what I posted.
Just to clarify for others interested in reloading 6.5x55 (and to put it another way): Our "friends" in the US cartridge business make Swede cases out of "parent" brass material. That material happens to have the same case head diameter as the .30-06 family of calibers (and there are many). That brass parent material has a head diameter that is TOO SMALL for the 6.5 Swede. Go ahead and measure the American made cases you have and compare them to the dimensions in your manual. See what I mean? The US cases are all TOO SMALL at the head. Now measure a surplus 6.5 case, or a Lapua or a Norma case. Does not matter is the Swedish surplus case is 100 years old - if its made over there, then it's head diameter will MATCH the drawing in your reloding manual (whereas your US case will be too small). The US cases will "function" - but accuracy will not be very good. To make the gun work as accurately as intended, you simply must buy some Norma or Lapua cases made to fit the chamber dimension of your gun. Personally, I would send any US made cases back to the US company and demand your money back. |
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Quoted:
Thanks NVG and Skywarp - you both understood exactly what I posted. Just to clarify for others interested in reloading 6.5x55 (and to put it another way): Our "friends" in the US cartridge business make Swede cases out of "parent" brass material. That material happens to have the same case head diameter as the .30-06 family of calibers (and there are many). That brass parent material has a head diameter that is TOO SMALL for the 6.5 Swede. Go ahead and measure the American made cases you have and compare them to the dimensions in your manual. See what I mean? The US cases are all TOO SMALL at the head. Now measure a surplus 6.5 case, or a Lapua or a Norma case. Does not matter is the Swedish surplus case is 100 years old - if its made over there, then it's head diameter will MATCH the drawing in your reloding manual (whereas your US case will be too small). The US cases will "function" - but accuracy will not be very good. To make the gun work as accurately as intended, you simply must buy some Norma or Lapua cases made to fit the chamber dimension of your gun. Personally, I would send any US made cases back to the US company and demand your money back. I'm not sure where this tidbit of internet lore started but I've been loading and shooting 6.5X55 for many years and have never run into under sized US cases. I have a bunch of PMC and Remington (RP headstamp) cases and they will not fit into an 06 shell holder. The fired 06 case sitting here on my desk measures 0.463 at the web and the fired 6.5X55 RP case measures 0.473. Years ago many "Gunsmiths" tried to rechamber 93 and 96 Mausers to .30-06 by just running a reamer down the chamber. The result was a sloppy and dangerous chamber. Maybe that's where it started. If anyone has any factual information in regards to this I would really like to see it. I really doubt that any reputable company would engage in such a dangerous practice |
Lore?!?! Er, no. For your information, I have posted an industry drawing of the proper dimensions of the 6.5x55mm. Since you apparently missed it all these years, please pay attention to the case head dimension:
Since you are apparently not familiar with these things (despite your years of experience), I will point out for you that the case head dimension is supposed to be: 0.4803" The measurements you posted in your post below somply CONFIRM what I have stated. TO quote your post, you stated: " the fired 6.5X55 RP case measures 0.473." 0.473?? It is supposed to be 0.4803. As I have said (and your measurements confirm) U.S. cases are UNDERSIZED. Significantly so. Enough to account for the poor accuaracy of US made cases. I do not wish to pick a fight with you here; rather, I seek to settle this matter for the benefit of all. You called my statements "lore." Since my statements are true, and backed by the very FACTS that you posted, I simply ask you to retract your accusation of "lore." Regards, CBR "When one who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest." -anon. Quoted:
Quoted:
Thanks NVG and Skywarp - you both understood exactly what I posted. Just to clarify for others interested in reloading 6.5x55 (and to put it another way): Our "friends" in the US cartridge business make Swede cases out of "parent" brass material. That material happens to have the same case head diameter as the .30-06 family of calibers (and there are many). That brass parent material has a head diameter that is TOO SMALL for the 6.5 Swede. Go ahead and measure the American made cases you have and compare them to the dimensions in your manual. See what I mean? The US cases are all TOO SMALL at the head. Now measure a surplus 6.5 case, or a Lapua or a Norma case. Does not matter is the Swedish surplus case is 100 years old - if its made over there, then it's head diameter will MATCH the drawing in your reloding manual (whereas your US case will be too small). The US cases will "function" - but accuracy will not be very good. To make the gun work as accurately as intended, you simply must buy some Norma or Lapua cases made to fit the chamber dimension of your gun. Personally, I would send any US made cases back to the US company and demand your money back. I'm not sure where this tidbit of internet lore started but I've been loading and shooting 6.5X55 for many years and have never run into under sized US cases. I have a bunch of PMC and Remington (RP headstamp) cases and they will not fit into an 06 shell holder. The fired 06 case sitting here on my desk measures 0.463 at the web and the fired 6.5X55 RP case measures 0.473. Years ago many "Gunsmiths" tried to rechamber 93 and 96 Mausers to .30-06 by just running a reamer down the chamber. The result was a sloppy and dangerous chamber. Maybe that's where it started. If anyone has any factual information in regards to this I would really like to see it. I really doubt that any reputable company would engage in such a dangerous practice |
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I got to call this one out to. I just measured RP and FC 6.5x55 swede and it's .473 and .475 respectively. New 30-06 is 4.63. No way the rim of a case can grow .010. Just saw your case you edited
in above. Appears they are undersized alright but not made from a 30-06 case. |
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Fair enough.
For the record, while I KNOW that the US cases are undersized (and Jerrschmitt was kind enough to provide the measurements to PROVE I was correct about the US cases being undersized), my posts above should have stated that: "I suspect that the US companies are using parent cases from some other caliber to save money. But- however the U.S companies are choosing to manufacture 6.5x55mm cases, they are doing it WRONG and turning out cases which are so undersized at the head that they tend to produce poor accuracy - particularly when compared with PROPERLY sized cases like those from Lapua, Norma, or whatever Government ammunition factory in Norway and Sweden have been producing for the last 100+ years." Measure any Scandinavian made surplus case made in the last 100+ years. Compare it to a US made case and then try telling me I am wrong. But, I stand corrected about exactly how the US companies are going about producing the wrong sized cases. Quoted:
I got to call this one out to. I just measured RP and FC 6.5x55 swede and it's .473 and .475 respectively. New 30-06 is 4.63. No way the rim of a case can grow .010. Just saw your case you edited in above. Appears they are undersized alright but not made from a 30-06 case. |
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No, you didn't post an Industry drawing. What you posted was a drawing you found on ??.com. I am quit familiar with that drawing. An Industry drawing would have a source, name of the company, date, something to identify the purpose of the drawing.
Why is it that none of the experts have pointed out this dangerous situation? There are hundreds of sites on the Internet devoted to the 6.5X55. Here for example What you are trying to get me to believe is that my cases some how expanded .010 but still didn't fireform to the chamber dimension? And that normal firing of these undersized cases won't rupture when they are .020 under size? Point remains. What proof do you have that Remington or anyone else is using 06 brass as the parent case for 6.5X55. Give me some facts, not Internet lore based on a drawing you found on the web. |
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Quoted:
Fair enough. For the record, while I KNOW that the US cases are undersized (and Jerrschmitt was kind enough to provide the measurements to PROVE I was correct about the US cases being undersized), my posts above should have stated that: "I suspect that the US companies are using parent cases from some other caliber to save money. But- however the U.S companies are choosing to manufacture 6.5x55mm cases, they are doing it WRONG and turning out cases which are so undersized at the head that they tend to produce poor accuracy - particularly when compared with PROPERLY sized cases like those from Lapua, Norma, or whatever Government ammunition factory in Norway and Sweden have been producing for the last 100+ years." Measure any Scandinavian made surplus case made in the last 100+ years. Compare it to a US made case and then try telling me I am wrong. But, I stand corrected about exactly how the US companies are going about producing the wrong sized cases. Quoted:
I got to call this one out to. I just measured RP and FC 6.5x55 swede and it's .473 and .475 respectively. New 30-06 is 4.63. No way the rim of a case can grow .010. Just saw your case you edited in above. Appears they are undersized alright but not made from a 30-06 case. A caution about using diagrams found on the "net". Here is a drawing of the .223 case. Note the dimensions of the case head of .377. Mya cases all measure .371. How about yours? 
I don't mean to take anything away from Norma and Lapua. I use those cases in my 6 BR and they are far superior to Remington or UMC, but there is nothing wrong with US cases for 90 % of the reloading I do for hunting ammo. |
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Jerr - you are alleging that the diagram above somehow differs from all the other industry drawings of the 6.5x55mm?? I guess you did not bother checking your reloading manuals because any major manual you care to examine would verify that the CORRECT head diameter is 0.4803" - and NOT the very dimension you quote in your own post above: 0.473" for yopur own sample of US made 6.5x55 brass. You measured it and you posted it (not me).
As for your confusion over that drawing's source (you called it "??.com."), if you had simply right-clicked on that drawing, your confusion over it's source would be cleared up. But since you are as confused on that point as you are on the correct head diameter, then here, I will again do it for you: http://www.6mmbr.citymaker.com/i/Tech%20Diagrams/65x55.png 6mm Benchrest. Didn't you say that you use Lapua cases in that caliber? By calling that drawing into question, I take it you do not trust the dimension drawing of the 6.5x55mm posted by the benchrest guys over at that 6mm Benchrest site? Precision benchrest reloading guys posting falty dimensional charts? Hmmmm - that's strange. BTW, the Chuck Hawks site you linked in your post happens to lack any case dimension drawings of the 6.5 at all as far as I could tell. And your post's mention of "dangerous situation" ?? (see below). Would you care to point out WHERE in ANY of my posts I said anything about "dangerous" ??? Please do not make stuff up. The only one bringing up "dangerous" is, well, you. The issue is accuracy, not safety. Many folks I know (particularly reloaders) happen to like both safety and accuracy. Poorly-made, undersized, US cases will never yeild the same accuracy as European made cases with the correct head dimension. As far as how Remington is making these undersized cases, I guess you missed my reply to "Fixit" that starts out "Fair enough." As far as proof? I am happy to use the proof you supplied: undersized Remington case heads you measured and posted (I believe you). I'll post your measurements again in case you forgot: you wrote: "and the fired 6.5X55 RP case measures 0.473." Point is, it is supposed to be 0.4803" Finally, I have to ask you again: (from above): "Since my statements are true, and backed by the very FACTS that you posted, I simply ask you to retract your accusation of "lore." Regards, CBR Quoted:
No, you didn't post an Industry drawing. What you posted was a drawing you found on ??.com. I am quit familiar with that drawing. An Industry drawing would have a source, name of the company, date, something to identify the purpose of the drawing. Why is it that none of the experts have pointed out this dangerous situation? There are hundreds of sites on the Internet devoted to the 6.5X55. Here for example What you are trying to get me to believe is that my cases some how expanded .010 but still didn't fireform to the chamber dimension? And that normal firing of these undersized cases won't rupture when they are .020 under size? Point remains. What proof do you have that Remington or anyone else is using 06 brass as the parent case for 6.5X55. Give me some facts, not Internet lore based on a drawing you found on the web. |
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Quoted:
Jerr - you are alleging that the diagram above somehow differs from all the other industry drawings of the 6.5x55mm?? I guess you did not bother checking your reloading manuals because any major manual you care to examine would verify that the CORRECT head diameter is 0.4803" - and NOT the very dimension you quote in your own post above: 0.473" for yopur own sample of US made 6.5x55 brass. You measured it and you posted it (not me). As for your confusion over that drawing's source (you called it "??.com."), if you had simply right-clicked on that drawing, your confusion over it's source would be cleared up. But since you are as confused on that point as you are on the correct head diameter, then here, I will again do it for you: http://www.6mmbr.citymaker.com/i/Tech%20Diagrams/65x55.png 6mm Benchrest. Didn't you say that you use Lapua cases in that caliber? By calling that drawing into question, I take it you do not trust the dimension drawing of the 6.5x55mm posted by the benchrest guys over at that 6mm Benchrest site? Precision benchrest reloading guys posting falty dimensional charts? Hmmmm - that's strange. BTW, the Chuck Hawks site you linked in your post happens to lack any case dimension drawings of the 6.5 at all as far as I could tell. And your post's mention of "dangerous situation" ?? (see below). Would you care to point out WHERE in ANY of my posts I said anything about "dangerous" ??? Please do not make stuff up. The only one bringing up "dangerous" is, well, you. The issue is accuracy, not safety. Many folks I know (particularly reloaders) happen to like both safety and accuracy. Poorly-made, undersized, US cases will never yeild the same accuracy as European made cases with the correct head dimension. As far as how Remington is making these undersized cases, I guess you missed my reply to "Fixit" that starts out "Fair enough." As far as proof? I am happy to use the proof you supplied: undersized Remington case heads you measured and posted (I believe you). I'll post your measurements again in case you forgot: you wrote: "and the fired 6.5X55 RP case measures 0.473." Point is, it is supposed to be 0.4803" Finally, I have to ask you again: (from above): "Since my statements are true, and backed by the very FACTS that you posted, I simply ask you to retract your accusation of "lore." Regards, CBR I know exactly where 6mBR.com is and spend a fair amout of time there. Here is a quote from that site in regards to those drawings. WARNING: Case Diagrams are provided for illustration purposes only. Do NOT use the dimensions on these diagrams to calculate pressures or internal ballistics. Measure your actual cases and use the data supplied by the cartridge maker and the propellant manufacturer. Do NOT substitute these drawings for official SAMMI or CIP specifications. Do NOT use these diagrams as the basis for creating reamers or tools. Actual production brass may vary slightly from these measurements. It's best to send in actual dummy brass cases when having a reamer made. My difference with you is your statement that people should send their ammo back to the manufacture and demand their money back since US cases are made from 06 parent brass. A statement which is not based in fact nor truth. And which you have now recounted. Your confusion seams to stem from the photo you show of a cartridge case with "chamber" max dimensions attached. These dimensions are not cartridge Dimenions. There is a difference. The cartridge must be smaller than the chamber in order to fit. Using a photo of unknown origin to make a blanket indictment of US cartridge manufactures is typical of Internet Experts. I noticed you now changed your story to fit your new found knowledge. Just what parent case are you now alleging the US companies are using that is somewhere between 06 and 6.5? My 6.5X55 fired cases measure .473 which is .007 smaller than the .480 you claim it should be. If .480 is chamber dimension, I'd say I'm good to go. If, however my brass was 06 brass with a .020 smaller head then I would consider it dangerous. My bench guns use Lapua and Norma brass not because of outside dimensions, but becaus of the thickness of the brass is much more uniform. Once the brass is fired it fits your chamber. The thickness of the brass affects the interior volume and hence the load quality. Time to jump down off that high hores and realize that just maybe you're not the Expert you would like to be. |
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You STILL question the dimensions in that drawing? Amazing.
Guess you still have not bothered checking any of your reloading manuals, have you? Anyone (who's at home at the moment) - care to enlighten Jerr as to what the reloading manuals list as the correct head diameter of the 6.5x55mm ? (Jerr - you might want to remain seated before reading the answers. Here is a hint: its 0.4803"). Why are you so insistant that the 0.4803" head diameter quoted above is somehow wrong? More importantly, what makes you think that undersized brass would give the best accuracy? In trying to prove me wrong, you seem to have lost sight of what the original poster ("OP") asked here, so yet again, I will post it for you: "A friend bought a tikka in 6.5x 55 Swede and has accuracy issues with factory ammo." Wanna bet that Lapua or Norma cases would "cure" the "problem" ?? Finally, if pointing out your errors by using your own words and facts (repeatedly) somehow puts me on a "high hores [sic]" - well gee, I guess you got me there Jerr! Never argue with an idiot. They’ll drag you down to their level then beat you with experience. Jerr - hope you are happy with your undersized brass and the results it delivers (or fails to deliver - for those who expect optimal performance from their guns & reloads - like the OP). Hope this internet "lore" was useful to you. I think this thread is done. OP - hope this clears up your friend's accuracy problems with his Tikka. Regards, |
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Quoted:
You STILL question the dimensions in that drawing? Amazing. Guess you still have not bothered checking any of your reloading manuals, have you? Anyone (who's at home at the moment) - care to enlighten Jerr as to what the reloading manuals list as the correct head diameter of the 6.5x55mm ? (Jerr - you might want to remain seated before reading the answers. Here is a hint: its 0.4803"). Why are you so insistant that the 0.4803" head diameter quoted above is somehow wrong? More importantly, what makes you think that undersized brass would give the best accuracy? In trying to prove me wrong, you seem to have lost sight of what the original poster ("OP") asked here, so yet again, I will post it for you: "A friend bought a tikka in 6.5x 55 Swede and has accuracy issues with factory ammo." Wanna bet that Lapua or Norma cases would "cure" the "problem" ?? Finally, if pointing out your errors by using your own words and facts (repeatedly) somehow puts me on a "high hores [sic]" - well gee, I guess you got me there Jerr! Never argue with an idiot. They’ll drag you down to their level then beat you with experience. Jerr - hope you are happy with your undersized brass and the results it delivers (or fails to deliver - for those who expect optimal performance from their guns & reloads - like the OP). Hope this internet "lore" was useful to you. I think this thread is done. OP - hope this clears up your friend's accuracy problems with his Tikka. Regards, I agree that it is time to end this thread. I also agree that Norma or Lapua brass would be the best brass to purchase if he were shooting a bench gun. The accuracy differance might be in the .100-.200 range. My question about the .4083 dimension is. "Is this a cartridge dimension or a chamber dimension?" I believe it to be a max Chamber dimension. Now, do you really believe that a fired case is going to be much less than the dimension of the chamber that it was fired in? If you take a piece of brass, Norma, Lapua or Remington. they will all come out of the chamber at the dimension of that chamber less a few thousands due to spring back. The difference will be in the neck concentricity and uniformity of the brass itself. I'm not trying to prove you wrong. Has nothing to do with you being right or wrong. It's just that when I hear people say things like your first response, I just have to drop my 3 cents. By the way, how come you haven't measured any of your Norma or Lapua 6.5X55 brass? |
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