Straight blowback is 100% unacceptable imo - Page 1

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Posted: 6/10/2019 12:40:04 PM EST

I don't care about your feelings. If you think straight blow back is acceptable because you spent a lot of money on yours (Hey B&T guys!) that's cool, this thread probably isn't for you (yet).

10 years ago I built an MP5 from parts kit. One of the first LSC flats. German parts, had Ralph at RDTS did the work, it's as MP5 as you can get. ... It ruined me on all future 9mm carbines I'd own. But it kinda sucks still. That gun has horrible controls minus the HK Slap. It's got an ancient mag well, no bolt hold open, and reloads are slow. All parts are stupid expensive, and a certain questionable retailer has a hold on the market. It's meant to be a team gun where it's ok reloads are slow because you have 5 other guys with you. I love it, I'll keep it, but it's a dead platform.

I could list other gun I've owned, sold, evaluated. I started to on the second post in this thread. https://www.ar15.com/forums/Armory/APC9-pro-or-D54R-N/48-499287/ but I'm not interested in sharing my stories of why this or that gun might look real cool in pictures but kind sucks in hand.

Instead, I thought to propose the statement I fully believe might be better. Straight blowback sucks. I know, to some this isn't earth shattering and you already know. And to others it's a mortal sin of me telling you the way you spent your money is bad and you were wrong. If you take it offense, just ignore it.

Straight Blowback's claim to fame is it's reliable but that's BS. Saying it's "dead nuts simple" really means "I have to hope it works". I've locked my MP5 up and I've locked Uzi/Evo/9mmAR up. Guns stop running for lots of reasons, a well placed primer will shut ANY gun down. Straight blowback is a required balance of ammo + reciprocating weight + springs. Hot ammo, will force the action to cycle faster, peak bolt velocity must go up. In a delayed gun, within reason you can assume there is a limit to peak bolt velocity. I think it's foolish to say one design is more reliable as a fact.

I'm talking about suppressed + unsuppressed + competition / real use, a calibrated shoulder combined with testing split times. If you only want a range toy or a blaster because of how it looks, do whatever you want! We're on different wave lengths.

The market has a strong interest in not telling you blowback sucks. Delayed blowback is harder and more expensive. The margins on guns are bad. There are 20 mfgs of 9mm blowback guns compared to every delayed option. Just this year the number of blowback guns has exploded. Likely because of USPSA PCC competition.

Delayed blowback is something you must experience. Look, if you don't know, you don't know. And I don't mean "I shot an MP5 once, it's the same as my (whatevergun)." I mean really A-B-A compare and test. Run the same drills, repeatedly test, do some science. If you don't know or don't get it - that's fine. Once you know you can't go back.

Not all delayed blowback are equal. Guns are machines, and balance is a real factor. Not weight, but holistic balance. The MPX is a piston gun, it should have every characteristic of not being blow back to make it great. IMO it isn't. The operating window is too small. Amphibian here (who deserves a damn round of applause for posting his technical findings by the way!) showed that while SIG says the gun does 850rpm like the MP5, it really does 1140rpm which means it's unlocking way faster and is on the ragged edge all the time. Anyone with an MPX and knows about the gun beating the snot out of triggers knows this already. The MPX suppresses gassy because it cycles too fast, who knew putting the port at the chamber would do that!? (everyone) I really want to like the MPX but can't yet. Some guys doing integrals report it actually working well.

The two most popular threads here in this sub are for blowback guns, EVO and APC9. Here I am saying those guns aren't as good as other options, I expect hate. This post isn't for that, this post for the guy like me 10 years ago to finally figure out that pic and discussion threads are NOT the same thing as "This Actually Works" threads. People have preferences, but there is an objectively small market of things that actually work. It took me years of bad gun purchases to figure out MISWANTING. At any point I've been certain I wanted a 9mm AR from glock mags, a Saiga 12, a KSG, an Evo, an APC9, a TP9, etc, sold them all.

There aren't many great options. IMO best right now is the CMMG guard. Personally I built one for analog-to-556 training. It's not for everyone because I don't think it makes as tiny a gun as possible. For the cost and effect, nothing I've heard of comes close. It's damn near 1:1 to my MP5 with AR controls and advantages.

Also, personal flamebait... But I think single feed 9mm PCCs kinda suck too. I know, it's cool to use Glock mags, but ask yourself why every rifle and carbine out there uses dual feed. Also Colt mags, let them die.

Side note #1... Smaller isn't better. I know it's cool af to have a 3" barrel gun with collapsible stock. Buyer beware.

Side note #2... "If you can't handle the recoil of a 9mm, you're a wuss" is a bad statement. A 9mm carbine shouldn't have more recoil than a 556 carbine, but almost all do.

I'm not anti any brand, I'm just saying after years of experience I know straight blowback is never for me because they just aren't as good delayed options. So, for me-in-the-past... Get a delayed blowback un in as close to an AR platform as you can get.

TLDR; You don't know straight blowback sucks - until you do.

Posted: 6/10/2019 12:50:57 PM EST

[#1]

straight blowback is rather primitive.

Posted: 6/10/2019 12:58:05 PM EST

[#2]

If I was going to own a NFA PCC it would be this:

Posted: 6/10/2019 1:08:45 PM EST

[#3]

If it was easy to make a locked breech 9mm do everything easily everyone would make them that way.

I would love for my blowback guns to be cleaner and quieter but that’s easier said than done especially if price is a big factor which it always is.

Posted: 6/10/2019 1:15:08 PM EST

[#4]

My Keltec Sub 2K seems to function properly for me and has last round open...

I do have the much superior 40 cal with glock mags though.

Posted: 6/10/2019 1:30:11 PM EST

[#5]

Quote History

Quoted:
If I was going to own a NFA PCC it would be this:

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-d7835287ef4695c1b23b274a7eb506d9

View Quote

I would agree.

Posted: 6/10/2019 1:41:04 PM EST

[#6]

Quoted:

I don't care about your feelings. If you think straight blow back is acceptable because you spent a lot of money on yours (Hey B&T guys!) that's cool, this thread probably isn't for you (yet).

10 years ago I built an MP5 from parts kit. One of the first LSC flats. German parts, had Ralph at RDTS did the work, it's as MP5 as you can get. ... It ruined me on all future 9mm carbines I'd own. But it kinda sucks still. That gun has horrible controls minus the HK Slap. It's got an ancient mag well, no bolt hold open, and reloads are slow. All parts are stupid expensive, and a certain questionable retailer has a hold on the market. It's meant to be a team gun where it's ok reloads are slow because you have 5 other guys with you. I love it, I'll keep it, but it's a dead platform.

I could list other gun I've owned, sold, evaluated. I started to on the second post in this thread. https://www.ar15.com/forums/Armory/APC9-pro-or-D54R-N/48-499287/ but I'm not interested in sharing my stories of why this or that gun might look real cool in pictures but kind sucks in hand.

Instead, I thought to propose the statement I fully believe might be better. Straight blowback sucks. I know, to some this isn't earth shattering and you already know. And to others it's a mortal sin of me telling you the way you spent your money is bad and you were wrong. If you take it offense, just ignore it.

Straight Blowback's claim to fame is it's reliable but that's BS. Saying it's "dead nuts simple" really means "I have to hope it works". I've locked my MP5 up and I've locked Uzi/Evo/9mmAR up. Guns stop running for lots of reasons, a well placed primer will shut ANY gun down. Straight blowback is a required balance of ammo + reciprocating weight + springs. Hot ammo, will force the action to cycle faster, peak bolt velocity must go up. In a delayed gun, within reason you can assume there is a limit to peak bolt velocity. I think it's foolish to say one design is more reliable as a fact.

I'm talking about suppressed + unsuppressed + competition / real use, a calibrated shoulder combined with testing split times. If you only want a range toy or a blaster because of how it looks, do whatever you want! We're on different wave lengths.

The market has a strong interest in not telling you blowback sucks. Delayed blowback is harder and more expensive. The margins on guns are bad. There are 20 mfgs of 9mm blowback guns compared to every delayed option. Just this year the number of blowback guns has exploded. Likely because of USPSA PCC competition.

Delayed blowback is something you must experience. Look, if you don't know, you don't know. And I don't mean "I shot an MP5 once, it's the same as my (whatevergun)." I mean really A-B-A compare and test. Run the same drills, repeatedly test, do some science. If you don't know or don't get it - that's fine. Once you know you can't go back.

Not all delayed blowback are equal. Guns are machines, and balance is a real factor. Not weight, but holistic balance. The MPX is a piston gun, it should have every characteristic of not being blow back to make it great. IMO it isn't. The operating window is too small. Amphibian here (who deserves a damn round of applause for posting his technical findings by the way!) showed that while SIG says the gun does 850rpm like the MP5, it really does 1140rpm which means it's unlocking way faster and is on the ragged edge all the time. Anyone with an MPX and knows about the gun beating the snot out of triggers knows this already. The MPX suppresses gassy because it cycles too fast, who knew putting the port at the chamber would do that!? (everyone) I really want to like the MPX but can't yet. Some guys doing integrals report it actually working well.

The two most popular threads here in this sub are for blowback guns, EVO and APC9. Here I am saying those guns aren't as good as other options, I expect hate. This post isn't for that, this post for the guy like me 10 years ago to finally figure out that pic and discussion threads are NOT the same thing as "This Actually Works" threads. People have preferences, but there is an objectively small market of things that actually work. It took me years of bad gun purchases to figure out MISWANTING. At any point I've been certain I wanted a 9mm AR from glock mags, a Saiga 12, a KSG, an Evo, an APC9, a TP9, etc, sold them all.

There aren't many great options. IMO best right now is the CMMG guard. Personally I built one for analog-to-556 training. It's not for everyone because I don't think it makes as tiny a gun as possible. For the cost and effect, nothing I've heard of comes close. It's damn near 1:1 to my MP5 with AR controls and advantages.

Also, personal flamebait... But I think single feed 9mm PCCs kinda suck too. I know, it's cool to use Glock mags, but ask yourself why every rifle and carbine out there uses dual feed. Also Colt mags, let them die.

Side note #1... Smaller isn't better. I know it's cool af to have a 3" barrel gun with collapsible stock. Buyer beware.

Side note #2... "If you can't handle the recoil of a 9mm, you're a wuss" is a bad statement. A 9mm carbine shouldn't have more recoil than a 556 carbine, but almost all do.

I'm not anti any brand, I'm just saying after years of experience I know straight blowback is never for me because they just aren't as good delayed options. So, for me-in-the-past... Get a delayed blowback un in as close to an AR platform as you can get.

TLDR; You don't know straight blowback sucks - until you do.

View Quote

You aren't supposed to slap HKs...

Also, dual-feed SMG mags are another thing that many people don't even realize the benefits of, having only ever experienced reliable but otherwise-awful Glock mags. Outside of subcompact concealable guns, they shouldn't even be the norm for handgun mags, these days.

You mentioned TP9 on the list; how do you rank recoil-operated SMGs? I think the LWRC is supposed to be one as well. Personally, I think that like handguns, recoil-op is truly the ideal system for SMGs (lightweight, reduces reciprocating mass, true locked breech safety, works best with short barrels & heavy bullets)

Posted: 6/10/2019 1:42:11 PM EST

[#7]

Quote History

Quoted:
If I was going to own a NFA PCC it would be this:

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-d7835287ef4695c1b23b274a7eb506d9

View Quote

A registered MP5 sear can also turn into a beltfed 308, though...

Posted: 6/10/2019 1:51:10 PM EST

[#8]

Agree with basically everything you've said. Just because something works, doesn't mean it's good or optimal. I spent more than I'm willing to admit on a straight blowback AR9 a few years back trying to get it one, safe to shoot, and two, not feel like it was going to break itself apart between the 1.5lb bolt and buffer combo slamming into the buffer tube.

The CMMG RDB system is excellent though for the AR platform (really appreciate Amphibian's posts detailing all the RDB stuff). I've found it to be a perfect training analog to a 556 setup if you use the Endomag/Arc mags. I almost wish CMMG didn't patent it so other mfg would jump on the delayed blowback bandwagon. My 16" RDB upper with Endomags is the most fun gun I've shot in awhile. Works exactly like my 556 rifle on my 556 lower with only an upper and mag swap.

While there are guns that are fine in straight blowback (especially if they were designed from the ground up for it unlike the AR platform), given the choice I'd go delayed every time knowing what i know now.

There's supposed to be a delayed blowback Stribog released here eventually but for delayed blowback options we can get right now it's pretty much the only three you mentioned: MP5, MPX, CMMG RDB. While I only have access to semiauto stuff, i skipped the MPX for the reasons you mentioned (also the mag prices

). I'd probably enjoy my MP5k more if it worked 100% (fun to shoot when it does work), but i think with CMMG giving more exposure to the Endomag+RDB combo, more people will get into the delayed blowback game and be enlightened lol.

Posted: 6/10/2019 2:09:05 PM EST

[#9]

The Gen 3 MPX blows everything else out of the water... its stupid light on the recoil, and they run... unlike the previous 2 generations.

That being said, besides as a range toy/competition gun/training tool, I don't much see the usefulness of a pcc/subgun whith the advent of PDW carbines and some of the calibers that work great in short barrel formats.

As for blowback PCC's... they really do take a lot to run reliably and smooth. The key is more mass, not less, and short stroke systems bring the dot back on target pretty fast. I use colt mags currently in mine... they seem to last a bit longer, and work a tad better than glock mags... but they can still be finicky. There are systems in the works to mimic delayed blowback. Ill try them out eventually.

My current set up for PCC competition is a 16in barrel, taccom bolt, blitzkrieg hydraulic HD buffer, and short stroke weight.. its not a light recoil system, but it actually keeps the dot far more stable than a lightweight one as it absorbs the recoil better... that being said; id much rather have a gen 3 mpx. They are very.. very nice.

Posted: 6/10/2019 2:16:54 PM EST

[#10]

Quote History

Quoted:
If it was easy to make a locked breech 9mm do everything easily everyone would make them that way.

I would love for my blowback guns to be cleaner and quieter but that’s easier said than done especially if price is a big factor which it always is.

View Quote

Traditionally, absolutely agreed.

I really don't want to be billboard for CMMG... but their RDB system is almost identical to a 556 bolt and carrier with some small changes. I think they're sitting on a gold mine if they license it to other mfgs or step up the marketing.

Posted: 6/10/2019 2:20:45 PM EST

[#11]

Quote History

Quoted:

You aren't supposed to slap HKs...

Also, dual-feed SMG mags are another thing that many people don't even realize the benefits of, having only ever experienced reliable but otherwise-awful Glock mags. Outside of subcompact concealable guns, they shouldn't even be the norm for handgun mags, these days.

You mentioned TP9 on the list; how do you rank recoil-operated SMGs? I think the LWRC is supposed to be one as well. Personally, I think that like handguns, recoil-op is truly the ideal system for SMGs (lightweight, reduces reciprocating mass, true locked breech safety, works best with short barrels & heavy bullets)

View Quote

Ok, first off.... I WILL SLAP HKS UNTIL THE DAY I DIE. :)

I never had a problem with the recoil on the TP9 except the horrible cheek slap. It's a small light gun, so it'll recoil more than a 16" racegun, but it was a fast action. You're looking at a ROF of 1000rpm or so. Same issue with being gassy and a small operating window as the MPX. However... For the guys that just dropped 4k on a complete TP9 weapon system, they don't want to say it's anything less than the best thing ever.

If LWRC made a 9mm at a good price, I'd buy one to try, but I'd be skeptical of the moving barrel. Seems to me they made a giant Walther action (P38? Whatever came before that?).

Posted: 6/10/2019 2:24:19 PM EST

[#12]

Quote History

Quoted:
There's supposed to be a delayed blowback Stribog released here eventually

...
but i think with CMMG giving more exposure to the Endomag+RDB combo, more people will get into the delayed blowback game and be enlightened lol.

View Quote

Yea, the Stribog A3. If they make the barrel length fit the upper a little better, import the A3, and the aftermarket accepts it (which they may because it's cheap) that might be something to watch for. Why they bothered importing the A1 I have no idea.

Enlightened is really what it is. There are cons to that though. It's like knowing what good glass looks like, you can't go back to cheap glass.

Posted: 6/10/2019 2:25:18 PM EST

[#13]

Quote History

Quoted:
The Gen 3 MPX blows everything else out of the water... its stupid light on the recoil, and they run... unlike the previous 2 generations.

That being said, besides as a range toy/competition gun/training tool, I don't much see the usefulness of a pcc/subgun whith the advent of PDW carbines and some of the calibers that work great in short barrel formats.

As for blowback PCC's... they really do take a lot to run reliably and smooth. The key is more mass, not less, and short stroke systems bring the dot back on target pretty fast. I use colt mags currently in mine... they seem to last a bit longer, and work a tad better than glock mags... but they can still be finicky. There are systems in the works to mimic delayed blowback. Ill try them out eventually.

My current set up for PCC competition is a 16in barrel, taccom bolt, blitzkrieg hydraulic HD buffer, and short stroke weight.. its not a light recoil system, but it actually keeps the dot far more stable than a lightweight one as it absorbs the recoil better... that being said; id much rather have a gen 3 mpx. They are very.. very nice.

View Quote

I've never had an issue with my Gen1 suppressed or not. It's louder than my FA M10/9 and Lone Wolf 9mm AR.

Posted: 6/10/2019 2:28:14 PM EST

[#14]

Quote History

Quoted:
The Gen 3 MPX blows everything else out of the water... its stupid light on the recoil, and they run... unlike the previous 2 generations.

That being said, besides as a range toy/competition gun/training tool, I don't much see the usefulness of a pcc/subgun whith the advent of PDW carbines and some of the calibers that work great in short barrel formats.

...

The key is more mass, not less, and short stroke systems bring the dot back on target pretty fast.
...

View Quote

What did SIG change with the Gen3 MPX? Did the gas system change? Does it have a manual regulator?

No, you're right. The real world use is limited. Personally I'm using my PCC with Endo mags as training for my 556 carbine on steel I can't shoot 556 on. If you were going to shoot something, a rifle round is what you want.

IDK on more mass with less stroke. You can't beat physics. But, I will say the the JP raceguns I've shot had more recoil but the dot did return. Last one I shot had bad reliability though.

Posted: 6/10/2019 2:40:24 PM EST

[#15]

Quote History

Quoted:
What did SIG change with the Gen3 MPX? Did the gas system change? Does it have a manual regulator?

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:
What did SIG change with the Gen3 MPX? Did the gas system change? Does it have a manual regulator?

The played with the port size some more, revised the gas plug, made the barrel 16in and did not pin the muzzle device, better trigger (timney), lighter weight (by a pound), increased the spring rate....

At least that's what I can think of off the top of my head, I just know that when I shot it I was highly impressed. I have not shot one suppressed; but for the intended purpose of competition... its the new gold standard.

Quoted:
IDK on more mass with less stroke. You can't beat physics. But, I will say the the JP raceguns I've shot had more recoil but the dot did return. Last one I shot had bad reliability though.

I didn't think the same thing until I switched from the JP bolt + JP SCS to the taccom bolt w/blitz hydraulic buffer and short stroke weight.. and started using slight higher PF ammo. I have my PCC set up identical to my rifle; I mostly just use it for trainging as well.

Posted: 6/10/2019 3:45:47 PM EST

[#16]

Quote History

Quoted:
I have not shot one suppressed; but for the intended purpose of competition... its the new gold standard.

View Quote

Before saying the MPX blows everything else out of the water, I'd highly recommend suppressing it to compare.

Knowing what I know now about the 8" CMMG, I'd like to compare a 16" and the Gen3 MPX. I can absolutely imagine the 16" MPX being a good competition gun, but LOTS of people will have given up on that from Gen2 issues that were aplenty.

Posted: 6/10/2019 3:56:46 PM EST

[#17]

Quote History

Quoted:
Before saying the MPX blows everything else out of the water, I'd highly recommend suppressing it to compare.

Knowing what I know now about the 8" CMMG, I'd like to compare a 16" and the Gen3 MPX. I can absolutely imagine the 16" MPX being a good competition gun, but LOTS of people will have given up on that from Gen2 issues that were aplenty.

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
I have not shot one suppressed; but for the intended purpose of competition... its the new gold standard.

Before saying the MPX blows everything else out of the water, I'd highly recommend suppressing it to compare.

Knowing what I know now about the 8" CMMG, I'd like to compare a 16" and the Gen3 MPX. I can absolutely imagine the 16" MPX being a good competition gun, but LOTS of people will have given up on that from Gen2 issues that were aplenty.

He said for the intended purpose of competition which is not done suppressed.

Posted: 6/10/2019 4:24:57 PM EST

[#18]

As an owner of most systems I have to disagree with you.

MPX- Belongs in the trash with AK’s

Scorpion- Every hipster should own one

MP5- Because Die Hard

B&T- APc9 Pro is God’s gift to the PCC market. Go be poor somewhere else peasant

Vector- Legit fun like scooters and fat girls

CMMG- meh it’s just another way to skin that cat

Posted: 6/10/2019 4:29:15 PM EST

[#19]

Quote History

Quoted:

He said for the intended purpose of competition which is not done suppressed.

View Quote

He actually said "suppressed + unsuppressed + competition"

Posted: 6/10/2019 4:34:58 PM EST

[#20]

You're not wrong.

My Scorpion with suppressor is still a blast though. I love shooting it.

Posted: 6/10/2019 4:52:46 PM EST

[#21]

Straight blowback guns do suck. I love my CZ, but as a suppressor host it will alway suck compared to delayed blowback guns. No denying it, and if CMMG had released the RDB system a month earlier I would have gotten it instead, but such is life. The amount of work guys have done here on the RDB getting it to feed from different magazines and working without a buffer tube gives me a lot of hope for the future of the system.

Double stack double feed magazine absolutely should be developed more for pistol use, especially for duty/owb guns.

You know what sucks even more? When companies say they have a delayed blowback action, but in reality its just light bolt going down instead of back... looking at you kriss. It sucked suppressed along with other issues.

My dream PCC would be AR pistol/sbr that uses cz magazines, uses the cmmg RDB bolt, and a Law folder. Extra points if it didn't require a buffer tube at all.

Posted: 6/10/2019 4:59:08 PM EST

[#22]

I agree with the OP. However, most people even on a gun forum have no idea what the operating system of their gun is other than bolt action vs. semi-auto. Tons of people refer to the MP5 as "roller-locked" despite the MP5 action being different than the MG42. To me it's like calling a magazine a clip

.

Also the first time I shot a CZ EVO it was a post sample full auto gun and it had much more noticeable recoil than my MP5 clone with an auto-sear.

Posted: 6/10/2019 5:08:36 PM EST

[#23]

Idk blowback is ok. Sterling is the most reliable SMG I've used. Best mags too. But yeah Mp5 is awesome, especially suppressed, very quiet. Mags are decent too. I like UZI's too, but the top cover can be annoying sometimes. Mags can be more of a pain to load. Of course the Sten mags suck the most to load, haha. I'm talking full-auto guns of course. The Mp5 is the best for semi-auto. The semi UZI and Sterling kinda suck, ha. Haven't played much with the newer pistol caliber carbines though.

Posted: 6/10/2019 5:17:28 PM EST

[#24]

CMMG Guard is tricky to make 100% reliable. After considerable experimentation, I’m real close, but not quite there yet. Many have given up. I wish they had done a proper job and designed a custom barrel extension instead of repurposing an AR15 unit.

Straight blowback works great in OPEN BOLT guns due to advanced primer ignition. With a closed bolt, I agree it is non-optimal. Semi-auto conversions of subguns are especially problematic because the bolt mass is designed for API but they actually fire from a close bolt; I find my semi Sterling only runs 100% with reduced power ammo (loves Remington FMC).

Posted: 6/10/2019 5:25:49 PM EST

[#25]

Quoted:

I don't care about your feelings. If you think straight blow back is acceptable because you spent a lot of money on yours (Hey B&T guys!) that's cool, this thread probably isn't for you (yet).

10 years ago I built an MP5 from parts kit. One of the first LSC flats. German parts, had Ralph at RDTS did the work, it's as MP5 as you can get. ... It ruined me on all future 9mm carbines I'd own. But it kinda sucks still. That gun has horrible controls minus the HK Slap. It's got an ancient mag well, no bolt hold open, and reloads are slow. All parts are stupid expensive, and a certain questionable retailer has a hold on the market. It's meant to be a team gun where it's ok reloads are slow because you have 5 other guys with you. I love it, I'll keep it, but it's a dead platform.

I could list other gun I've owned, sold, evaluated. I started to on the second post in this thread. https://www.ar15.com/forums/Armory/APC9-pro-or-D54R-N/48-499287/ but I'm not interested in sharing my stories of why this or that gun might look real cool in pictures but kind sucks in hand.

Instead, I thought to propose the statement I fully believe might be better. Straight blowback sucks. I know, to some this isn't earth shattering and you already know. And to others it's a mortal sin of me telling you the way you spent your money is bad and you were wrong. If you take it offense, just ignore it.

Straight Blowback's claim to fame is it's reliable but that's BS. Saying it's "dead nuts simple" really means "I have to hope it works". I've locked my MP5 up and I've locked Uzi/Evo/9mmAR up. Guns stop running for lots of reasons, a well placed primer will shut ANY gun down. Straight blowback is a required balance of ammo + reciprocating weight + springs. Hot ammo, will force the action to cycle faster, peak bolt velocity must go up. In a delayed gun, within reason you can assume there is a limit to peak bolt velocity. I think it's foolish to say one design is more reliable as a fact.

I'm talking about suppressed + unsuppressed + competition / real use, a calibrated shoulder combined with testing split times. If you only want a range toy or a blaster because of how it looks, do whatever you want! We're on different wave lengths.

The market has a strong interest in not telling you blowback sucks. Delayed blowback is harder and more expensive. The margins on guns are bad. There are 20 mfgs of 9mm blowback guns compared to every delayed option. Just this year the number of blowback guns has exploded. Likely because of USPSA PCC competition.

Delayed blowback is something you must experience. Look, if you don't know, you don't know. And I don't mean "I shot an MP5 once, it's the same as my (whatevergun)." I mean really A-B-A compare and test. Run the same drills, repeatedly test, do some science. If you don't know or don't get it - that's fine. Once you know you can't go back.

Not all delayed blowback are equal. Guns are machines, and balance is a real factor. Not weight, but holistic balance. The MPX is a piston gun, it should have every characteristic of not being blow back to make it great. IMO it isn't. The operating window is too small. Amphibian here (who deserves a damn round of applause for posting his technical findings by the way!) showed that while SIG says the gun does 850rpm like the MP5, it really does 1140rpm which means it's unlocking way faster and is on the ragged edge all the time. Anyone with an MPX and knows about the gun beating the snot out of triggers knows this already. The MPX suppresses gassy because it cycles too fast, who knew putting the port at the chamber would do that!? (everyone) I really want to like the MPX but can't yet. Some guys doing integrals report it actually working well.

The two most popular threads here in this sub are for blowback guns, EVO and APC9. Here I am saying those guns aren't as good as other options, I expect hate. This post isn't for that, this post for the guy like me 10 years ago to finally figure out that pic and discussion threads are NOT the same thing as "This Actually Works" threads. People have preferences, but there is an objectively small market of things that actually work. It took me years of bad gun purchases to figure out MISWANTING. At any point I've been certain I wanted a 9mm AR from glock mags, a Saiga 12, a KSG, an Evo, an APC9, a TP9, etc, sold them all.

There aren't many great options. IMO best right now is the CMMG guard. Personally I built one for analog-to-556 training. It's not for everyone because I don't think it makes as tiny a gun as possible. For the cost and effect, nothing I've heard of comes close. It's damn near 1:1 to my MP5 with AR controls and advantages.

Also, personal flamebait... But I think single feed 9mm PCCs kinda suck too. I know, it's cool to use Glock mags, but ask yourself why every rifle and carbine out there uses dual feed. Also Colt mags, let them die.

Side note #1... Smaller isn't better. I know it's cool af to have a 3" barrel gun with collapsible stock. Buyer beware.

Side note #2... "If you can't handle the recoil of a 9mm, you're a wuss" is a bad statement. A 9mm carbine shouldn't have more recoil than a 556 carbine, but almost all do.

I'm not anti any brand, I'm just saying after years of experience I know straight blowback is never for me because they just aren't as good delayed options. So, for me-in-the-past... Get a delayed blowback un in as close to an AR platform as you can get.

TLDR; You don't know straight blowback sucks - until you do.

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Someone finally gets it. Been saying this for years. Blowback is lazy engineering and cheap ass manufacturing, and too many gun owners are too dumb to know they are buying into stupid.

Posted: 6/10/2019 5:49:07 PM EST

[#26]

Well, I've owned a couple (few?) of Olympic Arms' .45 uppers; 16", 10.5" and as short as 7.5" suppressed and unsuppressed and all were very reliable with good ammo; even their funky ejector never failed me. Wolf was a mess when I tried that though.

My Macon Armory DI gun is superior though. Shoots softer, MUCH cleaner, and has more parts commonality with a standard AR. But the Olys were okay in my experience.

Posted: 6/10/2019 5:51:02 PM EST

[#27]

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I would agree.

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If I was going to own a NFA PCC it would be this:

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-d7835287ef4695c1b23b274a7eb506d9

I would agree.

Ditto.

Posted: 6/10/2019 6:09:13 PM EST

[#28]

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He actually said "suppressed + unsuppressed + competition"

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He said for the intended purpose of competition which is not done suppressed.

He actually said "suppressed + unsuppressed + competition"

When he finished his statement by talking about it being the gold standard in competition it gave it that context or that’s how I took it.

That’s one of the other problems when discussing what is best because everyone wants something different.

Posted: 6/10/2019 6:13:42 PM EST

[#29]

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I didn't think the same thing until I switched from the JP bolt + JP SCS to the taccom bolt w/blitz hydraulic buffer and short stroke weight.. and started using slight higher PF ammo. I have my PCC set up identical to my rifle; I mostly just use it for trainging as well.

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I think the CMMG RDB would be an even better 'trainer' for you since it uses the same BCG geometry as 556. As I mentioned in other threads and on my site, I'm using the same exact lower for 556 as the CMMG Guard. Literally is just an upper swap....So same trigger, buffer tube, buffer and spring...and with the Endomags, using the same Pmags and mag pouches.

Posted: 6/10/2019 6:18:32 PM EST

[#30]

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My dream PCC would be AR pistol/sbr that uses cz magazines, uses the cmmg RDB bolt, and a Law folder. Extra points if it didn't require a buffer tube at all.

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As the OP mentioned, it may not be as cool looking not being a side folder or whatever but I personally see using the buffer tube as an advantage....advantage because use of the buffer tube gives you a plethora of options in regards to springs and buffers. Nothing comes close to matching the options for the AR platform.

Not as cool some side folder but I never shoot my guns folded anyways.

Posted: 6/10/2019 7:47:45 PM EST

[#31]

OP isn't entirely wrong, but blowback SMGs are plenty good enough for the prices I'm willing to pay, and seem to be good enough SMGs for buyers who aren't spending taxpayer money. And they're simpler to clean, to boot.

The EVO is fun. An MP5 would be more fun....but not > 2.5x as fun. I also don't shoot full auto stuff, so the recoil difference, while noticeable, isn't a deal breaker to me.

Posted: 6/10/2019 8:33:39 PM EST

[#32]

I agree 100% with the OP.

Posted: 6/10/2019 10:10:32 PM EST

[#33]

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Ok, first off.... I WILL SLAP HKS UNTIL THE DAY I DIE. :)

I never had a problem with the recoil on the TP9 except the horrible cheek slap. It's a small light gun, so it'll recoil more than a 16" racegun, but it was a fast action. You're looking at a ROF of 1000rpm or so. Same issue with being gassy and a small operating window as the MPX. However... For the guys that just dropped 4k on a complete TP9 weapon system, they don't want to say it's anything less than the best thing ever.

If LWRC made a 9mm at a good price, I'd buy one to try, but I'd be skeptical of the moving barrel. Seems to me they made a giant Walther action (P38? Whatever came before that?).

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You aren't supposed to slap HKs...

Also, dual-feed SMG mags are another thing that many people don't even realize the benefits of, having only ever experienced reliable but otherwise-awful Glock mags. Outside of subcompact concealable guns, they shouldn't even be the norm for handgun mags, these days.

You mentioned TP9 on the list; how do you rank recoil-operated SMGs? I think the LWRC is supposed to be one as well. Personally, I think that like handguns, recoil-op is truly the ideal system for SMGs (lightweight, reduces reciprocating mass, true locked breech safety, works best with short barrels & heavy bullets)

Ok, first off.... I WILL SLAP HKS UNTIL THE DAY I DIE. :)

I never had a problem with the recoil on the TP9 except the horrible cheek slap. It's a small light gun, so it'll recoil more than a 16" racegun, but it was a fast action. You're looking at a ROF of 1000rpm or so. Same issue with being gassy and a small operating window as the MPX. However... For the guys that just dropped 4k on a complete TP9 weapon system, they don't want to say it's anything less than the best thing ever.

If LWRC made a 9mm at a good price, I'd buy one to try, but I'd be skeptical of the moving barrel. Seems to me they made a giant Walther action (P38? Whatever came before that?).

See, this is why HK hates us; right here.

You're skeptical of what about a moving barrel? You can pop targets all day at 100yds with just about any locked breech handgun once you find the holdover, and SMGs are still an inside-150yd deal for the most part. Well built recoil op guns can be stupidly accurate (especially for handguns). Sight radius or red dot size are still far & away the limiting factors for subgun accuracy. So long as the moving parts are shrouded I don't see it as a pro or con...except it'll shoot much, much cleaner than a blowback, and will be somewhat self-adjusting for silencers, vs. running harder/faster. Lighter than a BB for sure; basically the same advantages as a delayed blowback.

ROF rises with lighter operating parts, but is manageable with a rate-reducer (especially with a closed-bolt setup) if designers could be bothered. Both VZ61 & the PM63 are comically controllable because of their rate-reducer.

My dream, a Strike-One/Strike-B based modular PDW along the lines of the X-01 (which is P320 based) utilizing the gun's serialized trigger group unit. Linear barrel movement with little friction to unlock means it cycles with cans that don't have pistons in them, and they'll fit inside handguards without hitting them (and the can muzzle could even be rigged up to act as a barrel bushing to improve accuracy). Respectable to excellent trigger, too.

Posted: 6/10/2019 10:14:06 PM EST

[#34]

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Yea, the Stribog A3. If they make the barrel length fit the upper a little better, import the A3, and the aftermarket accepts it (which they may because it's cheap) that might be something to watch for. Why they bothered importing the A1 I have no idea.

Enlightened is really what it is. There are cons to that though. It's like knowing what good glass looks like, you can't go back to cheap glass.

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There's supposed to be a delayed blowback Stribog released here eventually

...
but i think with CMMG giving more exposure to the Endomag+RDB combo, more people will get into the delayed blowback game and be enlightened lol.

Yea, the Stribog A3. If they make the barrel length fit the upper a little better, import the A3, and the aftermarket accepts it (which they may because it's cheap) that might be something to watch for. Why they bothered importing the A1 I have no idea.

Enlightened is really what it is. There are cons to that though. It's like knowing what good glass looks like, you can't go back to cheap glass.

Aftermarket's already exploding, about a half dozen companies diving in, so far. And if accounts about the delay are accurate, it doesn't take much at all to tame the recoil of the mighty 9mm (which shouldn't be a big surprise if you see how little roller delay the MP5 really has)

Posted: 6/10/2019 10:23:19 PM EST

[#35]

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He said for the intended purpose of competition which is not done suppressed.

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I have not shot one suppressed; but for the intended purpose of competition... its the new gold standard.

Before saying the MPX blows everything else out of the water, I'd highly recommend suppressing it to compare.

Knowing what I know now about the 8" CMMG, I'd like to compare a 16" and the Gen3 MPX. I can absolutely imagine the 16" MPX being a good competition gun, but LOTS of people will have given up on that from Gen2 issues that were aplenty.

He said for the intended purpose of competition which is not done suppressed.

And also is code for "like an AR" for obvious practice/familiarity/legit-good-layout reasons. Compared to a standard AR9, hell yeah the MPX blows it out of the water. Compared to an MP5...probably still the case, but for weight & modularity reasons vs recoil or accuracy. To a Scorpion or APC9/GHM9? Starts to be more of a personal preferences thing. The Stribog A3 is basically a delayed blowback APC9, so that'll be the first real modern attempt at a 'sophisticated' SMG besides the MPX since the MP9/TP9 (which is just a hair too small to be practical for non-PDW stuff). Given the price point, quality, & potential seen so far, I expect the 'bog to do very well.

Posted: 6/10/2019 10:27:26 PM EST

[#36]

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https://media.tenor.com/images/039b76f457e474fccd92a26f5562393d/tenor.gif

Someone finally gets it. Been saying this for years. Blowback is lazy engineering and cheap ass manufacturing, and too many gun owners are too dumb to know they are buying into stupid.

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I don't care about your feelings. If you think straight blow back is acceptable because you spent a lot of money on yours (Hey B&T guys!) that's cool, this thread probably isn't for you (yet).

10 years ago I built an MP5 from parts kit. One of the first LSC flats. German parts, had Ralph at RDTS did the work, it's as MP5 as you can get. ... It ruined me on all future 9mm carbines I'd own. But it kinda sucks still. That gun has horrible controls minus the HK Slap. It's got an ancient mag well, no bolt hold open, and reloads are slow. All parts are stupid expensive, and a certain questionable retailer has a hold on the market. It's meant to be a team gun where it's ok reloads are slow because you have 5 other guys with you. I love it, I'll keep it, but it's a dead platform.

I could list other gun I've owned, sold, evaluated. I started to on the second post in this thread. https://www.ar15.com/forums/Armory/APC9-pro-or-D54R-N/48-499287/ but I'm not interested in sharing my stories of why this or that gun might look real cool in pictures but kind sucks in hand.

Instead, I thought to propose the statement I fully believe might be better. Straight blowback sucks. I know, to some this isn't earth shattering and you already know. And to others it's a mortal sin of me telling you the way you spent your money is bad and you were wrong. If you take it offense, just ignore it.

Straight Blowback's claim to fame is it's reliable but that's BS. Saying it's "dead nuts simple" really means "I have to hope it works". I've locked my MP5 up and I've locked Uzi/Evo/9mmAR up. Guns stop running for lots of reasons, a well placed primer will shut ANY gun down. Straight blowback is a required balance of ammo + reciprocating weight + springs. Hot ammo, will force the action to cycle faster, peak bolt velocity must go up. In a delayed gun, within reason you can assume there is a limit to peak bolt velocity. I think it's foolish to say one design is more reliable as a fact.

I'm talking about suppressed + unsuppressed + competition / real use, a calibrated shoulder combined with testing split times. If you only want a range toy or a blaster because of how it looks, do whatever you want! We're on different wave lengths.

The market has a strong interest in not telling you blowback sucks. Delayed blowback is harder and more expensive. The margins on guns are bad. There are 20 mfgs of 9mm blowback guns compared to every delayed option. Just this year the number of blowback guns has exploded. Likely because of USPSA PCC competition.

Delayed blowback is something you must experience. Look, if you don't know, you don't know. And I don't mean "I shot an MP5 once, it's the same as my (whatevergun)." I mean really A-B-A compare and test. Run the same drills, repeatedly test, do some science. If you don't know or don't get it - that's fine. Once you know you can't go back.

Not all delayed blowback are equal. Guns are machines, and balance is a real factor. Not weight, but holistic balance. The MPX is a piston gun, it should have every characteristic of not being blow back to make it great. IMO it isn't. The operating window is too small. Amphibian here (who deserves a damn round of applause for posting his technical findings by the way!) showed that while SIG says the gun does 850rpm like the MP5, it really does 1140rpm which means it's unlocking way faster and is on the ragged edge all the time. Anyone with an MPX and knows about the gun beating the snot out of triggers knows this already. The MPX suppresses gassy because it cycles too fast, who knew putting the port at the chamber would do that!? (everyone) I really want to like the MPX but can't yet. Some guys doing integrals report it actually working well.

The two most popular threads here in this sub are for blowback guns, EVO and APC9. Here I am saying those guns aren't as good as other options, I expect hate. This post isn't for that, this post for the guy like me 10 years ago to finally figure out that pic and discussion threads are NOT the same thing as "This Actually Works" threads. People have preferences, but there is an objectively small market of things that actually work. It took me years of bad gun purchases to figure out MISWANTING. At any point I've been certain I wanted a 9mm AR from glock mags, a Saiga 12, a KSG, an Evo, an APC9, a TP9, etc, sold them all.

There aren't many great options. IMO best right now is the CMMG guard. Personally I built one for analog-to-556 training. It's not for everyone because I don't think it makes as tiny a gun as possible. For the cost and effect, nothing I've heard of comes close. It's damn near 1:1 to my MP5 with AR controls and advantages.

Also, personal flamebait... But I think single feed 9mm PCCs kinda suck too. I know, it's cool to use Glock mags, but ask yourself why every rifle and carbine out there uses dual feed. Also Colt mags, let them die.

Side note #1... Smaller isn't better. I know it's cool af to have a 3" barrel gun with collapsible stock. Buyer beware.

Side note #2... "If you can't handle the recoil of a 9mm, you're a wuss" is a bad statement. A 9mm carbine shouldn't have more recoil than a 556 carbine, but almost all do.

I'm not anti any brand, I'm just saying after years of experience I know straight blowback is never for me because they just aren't as good delayed options. So, for me-in-the-past... Get a delayed blowback un in as close to an AR platform as you can get.

TLDR; You don't know straight blowback sucks - until you do.

https://media.tenor.com/images/039b76f457e474fccd92a26f5562393d/tenor.gif

Someone finally gets it. Been saying this for years. Blowback is lazy engineering and cheap ass manufacturing, and too many gun owners are too dumb to know they are buying into stupid.

*cough* HK UMP *cough*

You know, I've heard that gun was supposed to be roller delayed --a polymer, modular MP5-- but...well, costs were cut.

Posted: 6/10/2019 10:29:40 PM EST

[#37]

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I think the CMMG RDB would be an even better 'trainer' for you since it uses the same BCG geometry as 556. As I mentioned in other threads and on my site, I'm using the same exact lower for 556 as the CMMG Guard. Literally is just an upper swap....So same trigger, buffer tube, buffer and spring...and with the Endomags, using the same Pmags and mag pouches.

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I didn't think the same thing until I switched from the JP bolt + JP SCS to the taccom bolt w/blitz hydraulic buffer and short stroke weight.. and started using slight higher PF ammo. I have my PCC set up identical to my rifle; I mostly just use it for trainging as well.

I think the CMMG RDB would be an even better 'trainer' for you since it uses the same BCG geometry as 556. As I mentioned in other threads and on my site, I'm using the same exact lower for 556 as the CMMG Guard. Literally is just an upper swap....So same trigger, buffer tube, buffer and spring...and with the Endomags, using the same Pmags and mag pouches.

Yup, if 5.56 wasn't so cheap already, the military/police should be looking at the Guard/Endomag combo simply for training.

Posted: 6/10/2019 10:55:37 PM EST

[#38]

I guess the theme here is "Stop liking what I don't like."

Anything that goes "bang" is better than a rock. Sure, blowback is "primitive", but if the darn thing goes bang when one wants it to, it is better than nothing.

There are plenty of actions that are superior to some other action, and in time even those will be superseded by something newer.

Posted: 6/10/2019 11:53:51 PM EST

[#39]

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Straight blowback guns do suck. I love my CZ, but as a suppressor host it will alway suck compared to delayed blowback guns. No denying it, and if CMMG had released the RDB system a month earlier I would have gotten it instead, but such is life. The amount of work guys have done here on the RDB getting it to feed from different magazines and working without a buffer tube gives me a lot of hope for the future of the system.

Double stack double feed magazine absolutely should be developed more for pistol use, especially for duty/owb guns.

You know what sucks even more? When companies say they have a delayed blowback action, but in reality its just light bolt going down instead of back... looking at you kriss. It sucked suppressed along with other issues.

My dream PCC would be AR pistol/sbr that uses cz magazines, uses the cmmg RDB bolt, and a Law folder. Extra points if it didn't require a buffer tube at all.

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Can I ask why? And I'm not trying to troll. I have a Scorp that is suppressed and it's a dream to shoot. No gas in the face or any blowback that I've noticed.

I haven't shot an MP5 at all, though, so I don't know what the recoil impulse of the platform is like.

Is the roller a better design for suppression specifically or better because of the recoil impulse in general?

Posted: 6/11/2019 2:11:08 AM EST

[#40]

some good comments here...

although I will say, in semi without a can, straight blowback isn't quite that bad... An even with a can, I have heard some MPX or Scorpions come in fairly quiet.

I was hoping the DI 45 AR platforms would take off, but they don't seem to make much progress.

Posted: 6/11/2019 2:16:51 AM EST

[#41]

ITT OP built an out of spec gun and forgot all the reliable blow back guns were built to handle spec ammo.

Posted: 6/11/2019 6:36:28 AM EST

[#42]

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Can I ask why? And I'm not trying to troll. I have a Scorp that is suppressed and it's a dream to shoot. No gas in the face or any blowback that I've noticed.

I haven't shot an MP5 at all, though, so I don't know what the recoil impulse of the platform is like.

Is the roller a better design for suppression specifically or better because of the recoil impulse in general?

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Yeah my suppressed Scorpion is the most pleasant rifle I have to shoot. No gas in the face, not eating anything while rippin through mags at all.

Same can't be said for the MPX, however.

Posted: 6/11/2019 8:22:58 AM EST

[#43]

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I think the CMMG RDB would be an even better 'trainer' for you since it uses the same BCG geometry as 556. As I mentioned in other threads and on my site, I'm using the same exact lower for 556 as the CMMG Guard. Literally is just an upper swap....So same trigger, buffer tube, buffer and spring...and with the Endomags, using the same Pmags and mag pouches.

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If I didn't want to shoot some competition with it, yeah absolutely... but id be capacity limited etc. Plus I can get a PCC specific set up to shoot better.

When I say training; I mean movement, shot in, shot out, leans, barricade work, etc, with a rifle vs a pistol. Using ammo I can load for 9c vs 20-25. The way to PCC actually shoots, or mag changes, etc... don't matter all that much to me.

Posted: 6/11/2019 8:31:12 AM EST

[#44]

I think the OP is just sharing my frustration that it is 2019 and when we talk about how smooth a closed bolt SMG can be, the MP5 that came out in the 1960's is still what everything is compared to.

Again, I still think this is a perfect analogy:

Compared to this:

Yes, Hipoints and other straight blowback handguns still exist and being produced today but most handguns are NOT straight blowback. I would have hoped it would be the same case in the world of PCC's but it is the opposite. Too few choices.

Posted: 6/11/2019 8:46:15 AM EST

[#45]

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Aftermarket's already exploding, about a half dozen companies diving in, so far. And if accounts about the delay are accurate, it doesn't take much at all to tame the recoil of the mighty 9mm (which shouldn't be a big surprise if you see how little roller delay the MP5 really has)

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Maybe so, but my point is the AR market exploded a long time ago and many say already saturated..I think many are tired of it which is why so many people just want something different.
However, it is because of the large market that you can build a CMMG Guard cheaply (just get the BCG/BBL combo for $350 retail) then use standard off the shelf components to make it exactly how you want it. How much were rail systems when they first came out? With all the competition, you can get some dirt cheap and go really high for the boutique stuff.

I don't think any other platform will ever catch up to the options you have to compete against the AR any time soon.

While I like the Guard, I think there is room for competition, again if someone were to make an upper that was roller delayed blowback and a direct drop in replacement, I would be all over that. Again, I would also WANT to use the buffer tube to leverage all the buffer and spring options out there.

It may be boring but I have my lower just the way I want it, ambi with BHO AND RELEASE on the right side, Geiselle trigger, grip etc...
I don't see anything else out there that can compete because basically with the AR platform, you are competing with hundreds of companies making stuff.

Posted: 6/11/2019 11:00:13 AM EST

[#46]

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OP isn't entirely wrong, but blowback SMGs are plenty good enough for the prices I'm willing to pay, and seem to be good enough SMGs for buyers who aren't spending taxpayer money. And they're simpler to clean, to boot.

The EVO is fun. An MP5 would be more fun....but not > 2.5x as fun. I also don't shoot full auto stuff, so the recoil difference, while noticeable, isn't a deal breaker to me.

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Me too. I have a lot of PCCs and they're all blowbacks, mostly 9mm, a .45 and a few 10mms. Beyond 9mm the buffer weight & spring rates can get cumbersome. But they were cheap too. Still want to pick up a DI 10mm AR upper one day. I waffled between the EVO and MPX when they came out, on paper the MPX was certainly more advanced than the blowback EVO and both are quality companies. But the EVO seemed like a better bang for the buck. And I've not regretted it.

Now I don't suppress and if you do then paying up for something better than a blowback does make sense since you're already paying for a can & the stamp. But there's a lot of suppressed EVOs out there too.

I do agree I like dual feed mags over single feed but that's the difference between a platform with a dedicated mag design vs an adapted design for an existing pistol mag like Glock or Beretta. A guy who buys a sub $500 Extar 9mm would probably prefer a Glockmag just for cost & availability. If it works, that's good enough. I bought a PAK9 and it's been a great pistol but I mainly bought it cause it takes Beretta 92 mags and I have a ton of those.

Forgot to add, I dropped a Glock G32 in a RONI STAB and for what I have in it, it's been great. A super compact & light package, with minimal recoil. And a lot of it is because it's a locked breech setup running .357sig. But the pistol alone cost more than a PAK9, Extar, SUB2k or Hi Point carbine.

Posted: 6/11/2019 11:18:40 AM EST

[#47]

Can someone explain why double feed mags are better? Are there any problems using them? Size etc.

Posted: 6/11/2019 11:41:40 AM EST

[#48]

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OP isn't entirely wrong, but blowback SMGs are plenty good enough for the prices I'm willing to pay, and seem to be good enough SMGs for buyers who aren't spending taxpayer money. And they're simpler to clean, to boot.

The EVO is fun. An MP5 would be more fun....but not > 2.5x as fun. I also don't shoot full auto stuff, so the recoil difference, while noticeable, isn't a deal breaker to me.

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I presume most people that are in the market for a PCC or reading this since we are on AR15.com already have an AR.
That said, the CMMG starts at $350 retail for the BCG/Barrel combo. Many have spare uppers/rails laying around also. Combine that with the Endomags and you have everything you need and it will be better than all these straight blowback options out there.

Posted: 6/11/2019 11:49:39 AM EST

[#49]

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Can someone explain why double feed mags are better? Are there any problems using them? Size etc.

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Much easier to load in bulk, especially with a speedloader.

Downside is that with some, if you drop a loaded mag you get a fountain of bullets and an unloaded mag.
Also a little harder to get them to feed into something like an AR barrel extension (CMMG) vs a single-feed glock mag. It's been done though.