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Posted: 10/17/2012 3:48:05 PM EDT
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To move a 10mm, 200 grain projectile 1200 fps what powder and at what grain charge would I have to get to. Specifics of my question is Buffalo Bore brand ammunition advertises this combination. My curiosity is just how much over max published are they pushing the envelope ??
Does quickload give a 200 grain, 1300 fps powder charge ? |
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Well, assuming that you use the Speer 200 grain TMJ bullet, (not a good choice, but the first one that popped up), you can get it going 1300 FPS at 46, 600 PSI.
This is using a compressed charge of Power Pistol. I will check some other powders later. I don't think it can be done without disregarding your favorite uncle SAAMI. |
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First sentence should have read 1200 fps.since dited. MY BAD. I'm needing data for 1200 and 1300 fps. I'm curious just how much over SAAMI Buffalo Bore could be over, if they are.
Also what's it take to move a. .40 cal, 200 grain projectile 1100 fps and then at 1200 fps. These are all hypotheticals btw. Thanks. |
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Thanks Gendelbane. Like I said earlier. These are hypotheticals. I'm doing four things at once right now, including trying to get dressed and get to the store. I missed including a .40 cal request in previous post.
Again Thanks. I just need powder listings, charge weights and velocity. Pressures if quicload lists. You know not much, just stuff I can't find anywhere. The closest I find is Vihtavouri data but it of course won't list an unsafe charge range. This is all for this OP in handgun forum. Yea, yea. I know. Todays silly statements turn into tomorrows hand loader though. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_5_4/130663_what_if_the_40_came_first.html&page=2&anc=1373447#i1373447 |
Cartridge : 10 mm Auto (SAAMI) |
Max pressure with 200gr XTP
Cartridge : .40 S&W (SAAMI) |
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QL has Ramshot Silhouette a good performer in the 40 with the 200gr XTP.. Case fill, % powder burned and acceptable velocities compared to the rest of the powders in the chart.
Lets bump it up to 1200fps and see what QL predicts for pressures. Cartridge : .40 S&W (SAAMI) |
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Or we can do it this way.
Remember QL is just a computer model. Cartridge : .40 S&W (SAAMI) |
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Thank You Steve. I wonder how Quickload compiles data ?
Here is Vihtavouri 40S&W data. 
Again, Thank You Steve for your time and effort. Grendelbane shared insight regarding 800x that's spot on. After some research I'm reasonably sure Buffalo Bore is using 800x to achieve 1200 fps safely. Yet, there's zero published data I can find to confirm this. I was hoping to see 800x data and some N105 data for both .40 and 10mm. Interesting. Is Quickload a pool of shared information ? |
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A word of caution from someone that has been reloading for 20+ years and still has all his fingers:
If you're trying to duplicate a 200 grain lead bullet factory loading with 200 grain jacketed bullets, you might have issues with excessive pressure. Even moreso since you seem to be extrapolating/assuming a lot of things. I blew a mag out of my 1076 with an under max listed load in the Speer #12 book. 10mm is a very high pressure round and things can get dangerous on you very quickly. Good luck and be safe.. |
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Ron, thanks. If I didn't make it clear enough. Let me do so again. THESE WERE ALL HYPOTHETICALS. This said Buffalo Bore is pushing 200+ grain pills ussing what I believe is IMR 800x powder. They advertise their loadings to be within safe SAAMI spec and I want to believe them.
Do me a favor and read OP in it's entirety. dryflash3, it's A_OK by me for this OP to be deleted. It's served it's purpose. |
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Quoted:
Steve, looking at Vihtavouri N105 data for 200 grain Speer TMJ, page 250 in my Vihtavouri 4th edition manual. You can reference this online too as you know. I see a max load 7.7 grains N105 @ 1,076 fps. Does Quickload show this loading ? Cartridge : .40 S&W (SAAMI) |
195gr Lead bullet, 10 MM.
Cartridge : 10 mm Auto (SAAMI) |
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Th V V data is valid - HOWEVER:
1) their test barrel is 5.5" while much of the Quickload data specified 4" barrel for the theoretical test gun. 2) The COAL listed in the date could be longer - .40 guns built on the same farme size as 9mm will usually tolerate an COAL of up to 1.160" The STI and SV "2011" guns, as well as Para Ordnance and its clones - can use even longer ammo if the throat is appropriate : .40 loaded up to 1.200" or even longer can and is used; Atlanta Arms even sells .40 loaded out this long. From their webpage: "IN40L 40 S&W 180GR FMJ 1.180 OAL Using a Zero bullet and Starline brass, this major power factor ammo was originally designed for the AMU Action pistol team and STI. The 40 Long is a round that usually must be loaded by the individual shooter, but it is a stock item for us. Major Power Factor USAMU Action Pistol Team STI" "USAMU" = U.S. Army Marksmanship Unit Longer COAL will really LOWER pressures and could get you to the velocity you want. safely. In any event, if you are intent on pushing the 40 or the 10mm to those levels, the expensive but consistent SINGLE BASE V V powders are what you want. Quickload is accurate at predicting pressure for bottle-necked rifle calibers, but it tends to be pessimistic (higher than actual pressure) for straight walled pistol calibers. |
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Quoted: Ron, thanks. If I didn't make it clear enough. Let me do so again. THESE WERE ALL HYPOTHETICALS. This said Buffalo Bore is pushing 200+ grain pills ussing what I believe is IMR 800x powder. They advertise their loadings to be within safe SAAMI spec and I want to believe them. Do me a favor and read OP in it's entirety. dryflash3, it's A_OK by me for this OP to be deleted. It's served it's purpose. You want OP, Opening Post deleted? If so go to OP and click on EDIT, and do as you wish. Or do you want thread Trashed? (mod term for deleting thread) Please advise. |
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Quoted:
Th V V data is valid - HOWEVER: 1) their test barrel is 5.5" while much of the Quickload data specified 4" barrel for the theoretical test gun. 2) The COAL listed in the date could be longer - .40 guns built on the same farme size as 9mm will usually tolerate an COAL of up to 1.160" The STI and SV "2011" guns, as well as Para Ordnance and its clones - can use even longer ammo if the throat is appropriate : .40 loaded up to 1.200" or even longer can and is used; Atlanta Arms even sells .40 loaded out this long. From their webpage: "IN40L 40 S&W 180GR FMJ 1.180 OAL Using a Zero bullet and Starline brass, this major power factor ammo was originally designed for the AMU Action pistol team and STI. The 40 Long is a round that usually must be loaded by the individual shooter, but it is a stock item for us. Major Power Factor USAMU Action Pistol Team STI" "USAMU" = U.S. Army Marksmanship Unit Longer COAL will really LOWER pressures and could get you to the velocity you want. safely. In any event, if you are intent on pushing the 40 or the 10mm to those levels, the expensive but consistent SINGLE BASE V V powders are what you want. Quickload is accurate at predicting pressure for bottle-necked rifle calibers, but it tends to be pessimistic (higher than actual pressure) for straight walled pistol calibers. The OP asked about the VV data in their manual. I used the numbers from the provided VV manual. Same barrel length, 5.5 inch, same OAL, same bullet, same powder. The other QL generated data was much more generic as I did not have specifics requested. |
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Fine by me but most aren't tracking this very well. One isn't tracking at all but that's fine. For those new to OP or confused a bit. What you're seeing is an exercise in how I build ballistic models. This particular model is not my own but one that struck my curiosity. There's a lesson in paying attention to case capacity and pressure listings within published data to be had here.
Grendelbane, I believe is the only one tracking where this is going, but then he should because he's the one who was on point. 
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Buffalo bore uses lead bullets in their heavy 10mm ammo.
A load that may be safe with a 200 grain lead projectile may be way over max pressure using a jacketed projectile. I was merely trying to point out a commonly accepted observation in case you weren't aware of it. |
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I will try my best to explain what I'm doing. I look for holes within data and there are many. Here's the goal in a nutshell. What powder is Buffalo Bore using that gets their ammunition to velocities we think impossible and stay within safe pressure limits ? Custom blend might be the answer but Grendelbane gives a couple of options. If you look hard at the data IN YOUR MANUALS you see holes.Noticeably pressure and case capacity left on the table.
RIPRonReagan, while your intentions I know are the best please refence this link. 200 fmj, 10mm rated in excess of 1200 fps. Quoted:
Buffalo bore uses lead bullets in their heavy 10mm ammo. A load that may be safe with a 200 grain lead projectile may be way over max pressure using a jacketed projectile. I was merely trying to point out a commonly accepted observation in case you weren't aware of it. |
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