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Posted: 9/11/2012 11:36:41 AM EDT
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I have a Factory Savage FCP-K-10 that shoots Federal Gold Medal Match just great, reliably, etc....
I'm having difficulties with my reloads however. Reloading components –––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––– Varget 168 gr SMK Federal Brass from the Gold Medal Match (It's been thrown away) Federal 210 Primers The problem is when I reload the Federal brass (thrown away), any load above about 42.5 grains of varget results in a tight bolt and a mortar clear much of the time. It might also be near a barel harmonic because the groups just plain suck. I even trimmed the Federal Brass to see if that was the issue causing the tight bolt and no such luck, it did however result in some perfect cracks about 1/4 inch up the case from the primer the next time I used the case with a relatively hotter load (44.0 gr). What I would like is to push past the 42.5 gr Varget barrier and need to know if a brass upgrade would help in that regard or is there something fundamentally wrong here and I should think about a different bullet weight and powder or have the gun checked out? (PS I've reloaded many many thousands of rounds, but never for any kind of precision shooting) |
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I have a Factory Savage FCP-K-10 that shoots Federal Gold Medal Match just great, reliably, etc.... I'm having difficulties with my reloads however. Reloading components –––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––– Varget 168 gr SMK Federal Brass from the Gold Medal Match (It's been thrown away) Federal 210 Primers The problem is when I reload the Federal brass (thrown away), any load above about 42.5 grains of varget results in a tight bolt and a mortar clear much of the time. It might also be near a barel harmonic because the groups just plain suck. I even trimmed the Federal Brass to see if that was the issue causing the tight bolt and no such luck, it did however result in some perfect cracks about 1/4 inch up the case from the primer the next time I used the case with a relatively hotter load (44.0 gr). What I would like is to push past the 42.5 gr Varget barrier and need to know if a brass upgrade would help in that regard or is there something fundamentally wrong here and I should think about a different bullet weight and powder or have the gun checked out? (PS I've reloaded many many thousands of rounds, but never for any kind of precision shooting) Are you shooting these loads over a chronograph? Are these max loads per the Hornady manual? I don't have my manual with me...Are you sizing the brass enough? What are you seating the bullets to? Are the rounds set up to jam into the lands? |
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Double check your powder charge on a different scale.
Maybe check the powder capacity of the Federal brass that is causing problems. But, your experience with the split cases indicates to me that the rifle's chamber needs a close look to see if it's over size, or oval, or just plain messed up. Your powder charge is barely over Hodgon's recommended start charge. Are you jamming the bullet into the lands? |
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Sierra data shown has Federal brass used with Fed 210M primer. If you reference Sierra data you know Reloder 15 is listed as the most accurate combination tried at 2600 fps using SMK 168 hpbt seated to a COAL of 2.80. Just in a glance you see data ends at 2700 fps.
All listed on page #539. Specifically answering your question, my answer is ? I use LaPua and never tried Federal. Federal Gold Medal match factory ammunition groups for shit with my Shilen, 1/10 twist, 26" barrel .308 Win. My regular loading of Hornady 208 A-Max doesn't group moa at 100 yards but dampens to sub-moa after 300 yards and groups 2" at 600 yards. There's a ton of threads on web listing Varget as the go to powder for maximizing velocity, these posters are also seating to rifle lands. Going the direction your headed without course deviation will in my opinion require seating past mag length and out to rifle lands. What I'm doing here is trying to explain a very small part of the process. Just loading something up to and past max velocity can be an exercise of pissing in the wind in terms of accuracy. Also, there's differences in loading for distance and loading for 100 yard groups. My long distance load, previously mentioned groups moa at a hundred and dampens sub-moa past 300 yards. Velocity is for distance. I can't recall ever building a max velocity .308 load that grouped 1/2 moa at 100 yards. My 100 yard .308 Win load uses a180 grain SMK hpbt loaded a little over mid-range with VihtaVouri N540. Again, by reading page 540 in Sierra manual, N540 is listed as the accuracy load at 2400 fps. Precision rifle loads require serious resources, otherwise you're just loading in the dark. Good Luck, dc. |
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Are you shooting these loads over a chronograph?
Nope. I don't own one. Bullet drop with 42.5 matches up pretty well 2850-2900 fps drop per JBM ballistics. Are these max loads per the Hornady manual? I don't have my manual with me... Barely over minimum. Are you sizing the brass enough? Full length sizing. Before firing they go in and out of the chamber easy. What are you seating the bullets to? Are the rounds set up to jam into the lands? Are you jamming the bullet into the lands? Right now it is the same length as the Gold Medal Match. I haven't progressed far enough to care about that yet. Double check your powder charge on a different scale. Good idea, and I will try, but I doubt it will matter. I did dump 5 loads into the scale and the scale read 212.x grains.(it wasn't 212.5, it was either .7 or .3, I just remember it was .2 from what it should have been for 5 loads). Maybe check the powder capacity of the Federal brass that is causing problems. Will do. But, your experience with the split cases indicates to me that the rifle's chamber needs a close look to see if it's over size, or oval, or just plain messed up. Your powder charge is barely over Hodgon's recommended start charge. I hope that is not the problem, but will have a look. |
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Are you shooting these loads over a chronograph? Nope. I don't own one. Bullet drop with 42.5 matches up pretty well 2850-2900 fps drop per JBM ballistics. Are these max loads per the Hornady manual? I don't have my manual with me... Barely over minimum. Are you sizing the brass enough? Full length sizing. Before firing they go in and out of the chamber easy. What are you seating the bullets to? Are the rounds set up to jam into the lands? Are you jamming the bullet into the lands? Right now it is the same length as the Gold Medal Match. I haven't progressed far enough to care about that yet. Double check your powder charge on a different scale. Good idea, and I will try, but I doubt it will matter. I did dump 5 loads into the scale and the scale read 212.x grains.(it wasn't 212.5, it was either .7 or .3, I just remember it was .2 from what it should have been for 5 loads). Maybe check the powder capacity of the Federal brass that is causing problems. Will do. But, your experience with the split cases indicates to me that the rifle's chamber needs a close look to see if it's over size, or oval, or just plain messed up. Your powder charge is barely over Hodgon's recommended start charge. I hope that is not the problem, but will have a look. I ran into something like this when I first started loading rifle so I picked up a chrono and it helped me determine my problem. If you are running JBM you probably know you need to know the FPS of your rounds to get a good ballistic table created. Chronos are not that expensive (some fore around $100 at midway). BTW... Let us/me know what you find as I am buying that same rifle very soon ( just sold the old Tikka .30-06) |
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I ran into something like this when I first started loading rifle so I picked up a chrono and it helped me determine my problem. If you are running JBM you probably know you need to know the FPS of your rounds to get a good ballistic table created. Chronos are not that expensive (some fore around $100 at midway). BTW... Let us/me know what you find as I am buying that same rifle very soon ( just sold the old Tikka .30-06) My estimation of FPS comes from working backwards from paper to a JBM table. It is the best I got for now. I was hoping not to go gear crazy. 
I do like the gun, but the endless tweaking involved with long distance accuracy is a whole new world to me. |
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I ran into something like this when I first started loading rifle so I picked up a chrono and it helped me determine my problem. If you are running JBM you probably know you need to know the FPS of your rounds to get a good ballistic table created. Chronos are not that expensive (some fore around $100 at midway). BTW... Let us/me know what you find as I am buying that same rifle very soon ( just sold the old Tikka .30-06) My estimation of FPS comes from working backwards from paper to a JBM table. It is the best I got for now. I was hoping not to go gear crazy.
I do like the gun, but the endless tweaking involved with long distance accuracy is a whole new world to me. It never ends... beware. I THOUGHT I had my final load for my Savage LRPV... but I am outa town working and have nothing but time to read and pour over information. Well, I will rework my bullet, powder combo when I get home because I am not satisfied now ( I even loaded up 200 rounds of my new "Pet" load). I think the chrono is a must for a re-loader, especially if long range precision is your goal. Chrono on sale at Midway I had one of these before and it worked fine for me. |
| Federal brass is believed to be "soft" and a lot of people wont reload it because of that. The case splitting sounds like a case head separation resulting from too many reloads in old or soft brass. Maybe that's why it was thrown away? Buy some new brass and try that. Winchester brass is good. Lapua is supposed to be better, but very expensive. |
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I would guess that you are sizing the brass too much. This cold working the brass. Upon firing it has to stretch too much and cannot (due to cold working) and it cracks/splits.
Sizing without a gage is hit or miss. You can use your chamber and bolt as a gage to set up your die. Federal brass is widely held to be unsuitable for reloading. It can be done but it does not reward the effort with long life. Get some Winchester brass. Get a Hornady head space gage. |
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I have a Factory Savage FCP-K-10 that shoots Federal Gold Medal Match just great, reliably, etc....
I'm having difficulties with my reloads however. [DELETE] OK, mea culpa. Wow, was I ever off base (reading is essential)  .
Sticky bolt, hard extraction means overpressure. Brass expanded beyond its material yield point in all directions. Steel chamber expands at peak chamber press. then relaxes back down on the brass giving it a death grip. |
| I have the same rifle, and I had some very similar issues when working up a load. I don't have time to get deeper at the moment, but you might search the archives under my user name. I landed on 42.6 gr of Varget under 175 SMKs, which go over 2600 fps (2650 IIRC). That's quite a bit less Varget than other typically need to get the same velocity... My theory is a tight chamber. |
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That is the most common place for case head separations. I think it is due to stress concentration - the thick wall of the head thins out right there. We don't know if they are longitudinal or circumferential splits! You are correct about the stress concentration at the thickness transition. When I read split, I picture longitudinal, which indicates a chamber with large diameter. Case heads are so hard that the failure strain is only 5% or less, and not much expansion is needed to exceed that strain; it's [change in diameter]/[original diameter]. |
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That is the most common place for case head separations. I think it is due to stress concentration - the thick wall of the head thins out right there. We don't know if they are longitudinal or circumferential splits! You are correct about the stress concentration at the thickness transition. When I read split, I picture longitudinal, which indicates a chamber with large diameter. Case heads are so hard that the failure strain is only 5% or less, and not much expansion is needed to exceed that strain; it's [change in diameter]/[original diameter]. The crack was around the case rather than down the length. |
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That is the most common place for case head separations. I think it is due to stress concentration - the thick wall of the head thins out right there. We don't know if they are longitudinal or circumferential splits! You are correct about the stress concentration at the thickness transition. When I read split, I picture longitudinal, which indicates a chamber with large diameter. Case heads are so hard that the failure strain is only 5% or less, and not much expansion is needed to exceed that strain; it's [change in diameter]/[original diameter]. The crack was around the case rather than down the length. Pics? Sounds like case head separation... |
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I'm surprised nobody questioned this directly(""Nope. I don't own one. Bullet drop with 42.5 matches up pretty well 2850-2900 fps drop per JBM ballistics.""")Though many have suggested the op getting a chronograph.
Even my oldest hottest manual has MAX velocity at 2755. OP, The one good thing you got going for you is the fact that your rifle shot the factory match ammo good. Now you just need to work on your hand loads. You may have to try different components. Like the others I too suggest you get some fresh brass. You may want to consider neck only sizing too. |
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I have been reloading a looong time, and still keep seeing new things.
Recently i began loading for a new to me Precision .223. Factory loads were shooting perfect. My tried and true match reloads were, however, splitting the necks, down into the shoulder. Great accuracy, but every one was splitting. I put the fired cases into my RCBS Precision Mic, and showed the unfired reloads were too long for the chamber by .002. I moved the shoulder back by .004 (.002 under the chamber size) and all problems went away. What I'm trying to say is that the precision Mic, for about 40 bucks can show you where you need to be on sizing, and eliminate that variable. Sounds to me like case head separation from previous loadings and shooting. Good luck. |
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OP, chuck the used Federal brass and start over with new Rem, Win, Hornady or other higher quality brass. In my experiance, Fed brass is entirely too soft (as is Norma too) and the head starts to swell even at moderate loads and case will be excessively short.
MLG |
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I'm surprised nobody questioned this directly(""Nope. I don't own one. Bullet drop with 42.5 matches up pretty well 2850-2900 fps drop per JBM ballistics.""")Though many have suggested the op getting a chronograph. Even my oldest hottest manual has MAX velocity at 2755. OP, The one good thing you got going for you is the fact that your rifle shot the factory match ammo good. Now you just need to work on your hand loads. You may have to try different components. Like the others I too suggest you get some fresh brass. You may want to consider neck only sizing too. Nice catch. The FCP-K has a looong barrel and I don't know what difference that would make on the velocity. I also don't know what error is inherent in working backwards, but a chrono is now in my future. |
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I'm surprised nobody questioned this directly(""Nope. I don't own one. Bullet drop with 42.5 matches up pretty well 2850-2900 fps drop per JBM ballistics.""")Though many have suggested the op getting a chronograph. Even my oldest hottest manual has MAX velocity at 2755. OP, The one good thing you got going for you is the fact that your rifle shot the factory match ammo good. Now you just need to work on your hand loads. You may have to try different components. Like the others I too suggest you get some fresh brass. You may want to consider neck only sizing too. Nice catch. The FCP-K has a looong barrel and I don't know what difference that would make on the velocity. I also don't know what error is inherent in working backwards, but a chrono is now in my future. Longer barrel = higher velocities. Twist rate and barrel length affect velocity and chamber pressure. Think about it this way... it takes longer for the bullet to travel through and exit the barrel, which, adds to higher pressures built up inside the chamber.\. The FCP-K has a 24" barrel while most "hunting" rifles have 18-20". The load data books will list the type of weapon used in testing at the beginning of that cartridge's section. |
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Update.
I purchased 100 pieces of virgin Lapua and loaded up 27 rounds into a ladder of 42.5, 43.0, 43.5, 44.0, 44.5, 45.0, 45.5, 46.0, and 46.5 grains of Varget. The gun ran flawlessly, even with the 46.5 charge which is 0.5 grains over the max. Also noticed a POI shift of about 3 MOA high and 1 MOA right with 42.5 grains. I don't know what caused it but I lost the bottom part of my ladder just finding paper at 330 yards (300 meters). It also meant I did alot of walking. 
Sweet spot appears to be between 44.0 and 44.5 grains. And what was once 2 moa, now is between 2.25" (44.0 grains) and 1.75" (44.5 grains) at 330 yards with 3 rounds that were fired 30 minutes apart. Vertical separation for the 44.5 grain group was non existant. . It was 1.25" for the 44.0 grain group.
I'm feeling much better now. If I had bothered to notice the wind went from still at the first round to full vector with a straight flag at the last round I may have been able to tighten that up some more.
Final test will be to reload these and see if they run flawlessly again. Some other observations: In the case, 42.5 grains goes most of the way up the shoulder, but not quite to the neck of the Federal brass. The Lapua went just past where the shoulder starts. The Federal brass weighed 177.5 grains (non virgin) and the Lapua weighed 172.5 grains (virgin), which makes sense due to the lower internal volume of the Federal brass. I don't have any pics of the cracks as I wasn't thinking that far ahead and just threw them away. I did have some unfired rounds that I disassembled to compare to the Lapua. Lapua loads soooooo sweetly. Conclusion. If in a pinch buy some gold medal match to shoot your match as it will work, but throw the brass away. Make sure to destroy it so nobody picks it up. 
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I have the same rifle, and I had some very similar issues when working up a load. I don't have time to get deeper at the moment, but you might search the archives under my user name. I landed on 42.6 gr of Varget under 175 SMKs, which go over 2600 fps (2650 IIRC). That's quite a bit less Varget than other typically need to get the same velocity... My theory is a tight chamber. roger that. I know for fact that my fdc model 10 has always had a tight chamber. Once I knew something was wrong with my resizing, I didnt 2nd guess. I mic,d my fired brass and sure enuff. Ive been using a RCBS FL small base die and havent had a problem. sure Im working the brass a bit, but Im not too concern,d. I purchased 1K process,d once fired LC brass and never look,d back. as a matter a fact, Ive grown accustomed to the LC brass. IMO....damm nice and consistant neck tension |
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Update. I purchased 100 pieces of virgin Lapua and loaded up 27 rounds into a ladder of 42.5, 43.0, 43.5, 44.0, 44.5, 45.0, 45.5, 46.0, and 46.5 grains of Varget. The gun ran flawlessly, even with the 46.5 charge which is 0.5 grains over the max. Also noticed a POI shift of about 3 MOA high and 1 MOA right with 42.5 grains. I don't know what caused it but I lost the bottom part of my ladder just finding paper at 330 yards (300 meters). It also meant I did alot of walking.
Sweet spot appears to be between 44.0 and 44.5 grains. And what was once 2 moa, now is between 2.25" (44.0 grains) and 1.75" (44.5 grains) at 330 yards with 3 rounds that were fired 30 minutes apart. Vertical separation for the 44.5 grain group was non existant. . It was 1.25" for the 44.0 grain group.
I'm feeling much better now. If I had bothered to notice the wind went from still at the first round to full vector with a straight flag at the last round I may have been able to tighten that up some more.
Final test will be to reload these and see if they run flawlessly again. Some other observations: In the case, 42.5 grains goes most of the way up the shoulder, but not quite to the neck of the Federal brass. The Lapua went just past where the shoulder starts. The Federal brass weighed 177.5 grains (non virgin) and the Lapua weighed 172.5 grains (virgin), which makes sense due to the lower internal volume of the Federal brass. I don't have any pics of the cracks as I wasn't thinking that far ahead and just threw them away. I did have some unfired rounds that I disassembled to compare to the Lapua. Lapua loads soooooo sweetly. Conclusion. If in a pinch buy some gold medal match to shoot your match as it will work, but throw the brass away. Make sure to destroy it so nobody picks it up.
Glad to see you took a step back and figured out a load. Although you don't want to buy too much gear there are a few things you can't live without in precision rifle. One is a headspace gauge of some sort (Hornady OAL headspace comparator works great for me. I also have the kit that measures bullet length from the ogive), and the other is a chronograph. You should also get some loading manuals for the bullets you will use most (2-3 so you can compare - Hornady, Nosler, Sierra, etc). Good luck on your load development. |
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