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Posted: 10/6/2015 11:53:27 PM EDT
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I'm working up a new 30 06 load for my bolt action rifle. I trust the Lyman Handloading book for most of my general information, but the max load data for this seems to be much more than the Hodgdon site states for max load. I am loading 150gr BTFMJ over the 4064. The max load is 51gr according to Hodgdon, but 53.0 in the Lyman book.
I can test the loads up to 51gr and evaluate the pressure signs, but I am skeptical of going over the powder manufactures recommendation. BTW, Sierra data shows 52gr as max. What do you think? Any real world experience with this load? Regards, TV |
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3 different sources, 3 different max loads. Just what you should expect. If they were all the same, I wouldn't believe the data. Remember different sets of components, testing equipment, people doing the testing, and firearms were used to develop the data. This is why reloading data is a report of what happened during testing, and not hard scientific fact that never changes. So employ the standard method that works every time; begin loading at the start load and work up watching for pressure signs. |
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I totally agree with dryflash3. Also concidering that 2gr is only about 4% of the charge weight I think it's very normal to see differences like that.
Adding a chronograph into your load work up will also provide valuable information on your load status but it's not a requirement. Motor |
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Some reloading books (Lyman used to) tell you up front of the data what brass, bullets, and rifle they used to work up those loads.
Due to differences in all the above, what is "high pressure" in one rifle will create less pressure in another rifle, or even more pressure. The pieces (barrel, bolt, dimensions of both, that make up rifles are different from one rifle to the next. |
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Okay, so all of the reply’s to my question have provided some thoughtful answers. Each has given me personal opinions and quantitative data that supports the idea that I can rely on my specific gun and feedback from the load to determine the max limit for the powder charge. I really appreciate the time and thought from each reply!
The more years that I have under my reloading belt, the more I question my loading procedures and process. As many have pointed out, there are several sources for this data, and because they each test with different equipment and under different conditions, they are going to get different results. I sincerely get this concept. I guess it’s hard to fathom that the powder manufacturer is not the best source for this data. Also, I will use a chrono for all of my load work-ups, as I believe that can provide solid feedback about the cartridge. So what I am taking away, is that there are folks that are using a load that performs well, and not demonstrating over-pressure signs, but is above the max load recommended? Thanks again for taking the time to answer my questions. |
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150 FMJ's are no where near as accurate as quality commercial bullets.
47.0 to 48.0 grains of IMR-4064 is more than enough powder to work well and be safe with 150 grain bullets. Maximum velocity is worthless in my view. I load for accuracy, safety and component longevity. Your rifle may shoot a 50+ grain load without problems, but why beat the crap out of your equipment? If you have a chronograph, the same components as your data source and the same length barrel you can probably stop adding powder when you: 1. Reach your data source's maximum velocity using the identical bullet they tested. 2. Reach the maximum powder charge they obtained in their testing provided you aren't getting pressure signs. It is never safe in my view to exceed velocity or powder charges printed in the manuals. I know lots of people who push the envelope with the mistaken belief that if they "don't see" any pressure signs on their brass they are safe. Nothing could be further from the truth. Most rifles will shoot ammo that is 10,000 psi over maximum before they begin to show signs of pressure. By the time pressure signs are obvious you are probably 15,000 psi over pressure. Ignorance is not bliss. |
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Quoted:
I'm working up a new 30 06 load for my bolt action rifle. I trust the Lyman Handloading book for most of my general information, but the max load data for this seems to be much more than the Hodgdon site states for max load. I am loading 150gr BTFMJ over the 4064. The max load is 51gr according to Hodgdon, but 53.0 in the Lyman book. I can test the loads up to 51gr and evaluate the pressure signs, but I am skeptical of going over the powder manufactures recommendation. BTW, Sierra data shows 52gr as max. What do you think? Any real world experience with this load? Regards, TV I've said before although a coupe folks have disagreed with me: Throw away your Lyman manual and stick to load data from the bullet maker and/or Hodgdon. |
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Quote from the OP.So what I am taking away, is that there are folks that are using a load that performs well, and not demonstrating over-pressure signs, but is above the max load recommended? "
Op. Read this question carefully that you wrote above. ^^^^^^^^^^^^ The answer could be yes or the answer could be maybe or the answer could be no. It all depends on who's data you are referencing. I pull loads from my personal card file all the time then compare them to data published today and am sometimes shocked to find that what was considered under max 20 years ago is now 2gr over max. Then do more data research and find current data that says I'm still ok. As far as powder charges go, published data is provided for you to get a safe starting load. The maximum loads are as you correctly wrote "recommend" max. BUt still are very relevant reference points. My brother has a 300 Win mag that uses 5gr over max (in one reliable old data manual) shows absolutely no pressure signs and shoots great. When we finally got our first chronograph (this was probably Chrony first generation) we tested that load and found the velocity to be at the recommended maximum load velocity. This is kind of an extreme example but it's real none the less. Concidering the max recommended load was like 70gr going 5gr over is still only about a 8% over charge. But in reality it wasn't because the rifle was simply not producing the predicted pressure. Motor |
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Quoted:
I totally agree with dryflash3. Also concidering that 2gr is only about 4% of the charge weight I think it's very normal to see differences like that. Motor Yes, especially when the powder manufactures Lot-to-Lot variations are +/- 3%. It gets frustration and confusion when one manuals "Start" charge is equal to or higher then another manuals "Max" charge. In this case 2gr or 4% is nothing. The difference between these two manuals is perfectly norman and one of the reasons we should always follow the Number one rule in safe handloadeing. Start Low and Work Up. |
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I am going to keep my Lyman handbook, it's a great bathroom read! I will work this load up, keeping in mind all of the words of wisdom shared here. Thanks again! Sir, FWIW I've read the replies to your question, including that of Mr. Borderpatrol. As usual we consistently agree. I've reloaded this cartridge in many different configurations with different powders for many years. The bullet/powder combinations I choose depend significantly on what my intended purpose is and the choice of rifle I intend to use them in. I long ago dismissed using milsurp bullets for distances greater than 100yds. There is simply to much weight variation between bullets to achieve desirable groups at distances beyond 200yds. Due to the sensitivity of the gas system I never use higher pressure loads in any of my garand rifles. In fact since I normally only shoot them at 200yds I use a relatively light (45gr) of IMR 4895 with a 168gr SMK, which is sufficient to operate the gas mechanism. For my 03 rifles that I normally shoot at 300 and 600yds my choice of bullet for the shorter distance is still the 168gr SMK but for 600yd I choose the higher BC 175gr SMK. I use IMR 4064 for each load with a trickled charge weight between 52 and 53gr. depending on the desired velocities. In summary there's little advantage using higher pressure loads if your choice of bullet is not sufficiently accurate to impact the target in the desired location at extended distances. FWIW, given the price of a box of 175gr SMK bullets I don't want to waste my time with them going anywhere but the center of the aiming black. FWIW I do chronograph my loads during workup and adjust according to ES and SD. JMHO, 7zero1. |
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Quoted:
Sir, FWIW I've read the replies to your question, including that of Mr. Borderpatrol. As usual we consistently agree. I've reloaded this cartridge in many different configurations with different powders for many years. The bullet/powder combinations I choose depend significantly on what my intended purpose is and the choice of rifle I intend to use them in. I long ago dismissed using milsurp bullets for distances greater than 100yds. There is simply to much weight variation between bullets to achieve desirable groups at distances beyond 200yds. Due to the sensitivity of the gas system I never use higher pressure loads in any of my garand rifles. In fact since I normally only shoot them at 200yds I use a relatively light (45gr) of IMR 4895 with a 168gr SMK, which is sufficient to operate the gas mechanism. For my 03 rifles that I normally shoot at 300 and 600yds my choice of bullet for the shorter distance is still the 168gr SMK but for 600yd I choose the higher BC 175gr SMK. I use IMR 4064 for each load with a trickled charge weight between 52 and 53gr. depending on the desired velocities. In summary there's little advantage using higher pressure loads if your choice of bullet is not sufficiently accurate to impact the target in the desired location at extended distances. FWIW, given the price of a box of 175gr SMK bullets I don't want to waste my time with them going anywhere but the center of the aiming black. FWIW I do chronograph my loads during workup and adjust according to ES and SD. JMHO, 7zero1. Quoted:
Quoted:
I am going to keep my Lyman handbook, it's a great bathroom read! I will work this load up, keeping in mind all of the words of wisdom shared here. Thanks again! Sir, FWIW I've read the replies to your question, including that of Mr. Borderpatrol. As usual we consistently agree. I've reloaded this cartridge in many different configurations with different powders for many years. The bullet/powder combinations I choose depend significantly on what my intended purpose is and the choice of rifle I intend to use them in. I long ago dismissed using milsurp bullets for distances greater than 100yds. There is simply to much weight variation between bullets to achieve desirable groups at distances beyond 200yds. Due to the sensitivity of the gas system I never use higher pressure loads in any of my garand rifles. In fact since I normally only shoot them at 200yds I use a relatively light (45gr) of IMR 4895 with a 168gr SMK, which is sufficient to operate the gas mechanism. For my 03 rifles that I normally shoot at 300 and 600yds my choice of bullet for the shorter distance is still the 168gr SMK but for 600yd I choose the higher BC 175gr SMK. I use IMR 4064 for each load with a trickled charge weight between 52 and 53gr. depending on the desired velocities. In summary there's little advantage using higher pressure loads if your choice of bullet is not sufficiently accurate to impact the target in the desired location at extended distances. FWIW, given the price of a box of 175gr SMK bullets I don't want to waste my time with them going anywhere but the center of the aiming black. FWIW I do chronograph my loads during workup and adjust according to ES and SD. JMHO, 7zero1. Welcome back 7zero1, haven't heard from you in a while. |
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Welcome back 7zero1, haven't heard from you in a while. Thank you Sir. I lurk alot. Most of the time I don't think I can add to what's already been posted. Retirement keeps me pretty busy. 7zero1 out. Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I am going to keep my Lyman handbook, it's a great bathroom read! I will work this load up, keeping in mind all of the words of wisdom shared here. Thanks again! Sir, FWIW I've read the replies to your question, including that of Mr. Borderpatrol. As usual we consistently agree. I've reloaded this cartridge in many different configurations with different powders for many years. The bullet/powder combinations I choose depend significantly on what my intended purpose is and the choice of rifle I intend to use them in. I long ago dismissed using milsurp bullets for distances greater than 100yds. There is simply to much weight variation between bullets to achieve desirable groups at distances beyond 200yds. Due to the sensitivity of the gas system I never use higher pressure loads in any of my garand rifles. In fact since I normally only shoot them at 200yds I use a relatively light (45gr) of IMR 4895 with a 168gr SMK, which is sufficient to operate the gas mechanism. For my 03 rifles that I normally shoot at 300 and 600yds my choice of bullet for the shorter distance is still the 168gr SMK but for 600yd I choose the higher BC 175gr SMK. I use IMR 4064 for each load with a trickled charge weight between 52 and 53gr. depending on the desired velocities. In summary there's little advantage using higher pressure loads if your choice of bullet is not sufficiently accurate to impact the target in the desired location at extended distances. FWIW, given the price of a box of 175gr SMK bullets I don't want to waste my time with them going anywhere but the center of the aiming black. FWIW I do chronograph my loads during workup and adjust according to ES and SD. JMHO, 7zero1. Welcome back 7zero1, haven't heard from you in a while. Thank you Sir. I lurk alot. Most of the time I don't think I can add to what's already been posted. Retirement keeps me pretty busy. 7zero1 out. |
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7zero1,
I appreciate your feedback and experience with this load! In my case, gas is not an issue, as I am using a bolt action. The BC of the heavier loads is great reaching out further, and i use 168-175gr for my distance loading. I bought a bunch of the 150gr Hornady rounds when they were on sale. My intent was using them in my AR10, loading .308. I can't seem to find a load that my rifle likes in the .308, so I thought I would find a good 30 06 load. In addition, I wanted to see how the 4064 would perform in the 30 06. Regards, TV |
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