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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - 77gr SMK is the gold standard for 223 precision loads, but what about Barnes Matchburners? (Page 1 of 4)
Posted: 6/30/2024 10:25:54 PM EDT
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From looking around, it seems like the 77gr SMK (and probably the Berger as well) are the most consistent and accurate bullets for reloading 223, with the Hornady 75gr a smidge behind. I haven't heard anything really about the 77gr Barnes Matchburner. Barnes usually makes very high quality stuff, and I was wondering if anyone has any experience with them. [ETA] I should mention that I'm asking specifically for ARs, so extra-long bullets are out since they can't fit in a magazine. |
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Quoted: I tried some 6mm Matchburners when Bergers were hard to find. They weren't as consistent at distance as Bergers, or ELD Match. I have not tried 224 BMBs, but I see no reason for me to switch from 77 TMKs. I started using Nosler a long time ago, and I noticed that the load data didn't always line up, but when I got it right they were awesome. *Now* I understand that I was experiencing the "accuracy node" differences between brands. |
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First time I have read about that claim about 77 grain MK's. It's the last bullet I consider for .223 Rem ammunition due to spooky pressure nearing maximum loads; it's fine, then one increment and the pressure jumps in my match rifle. I never tried 77 gr MK's in one of my rifles with a long throat, I suppose I should, I have a bunch. |
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Quoted: First time I have read about that claim. It's the last bullet I consider for .223 Rem ammunition due to spooky pressure nearing maximum loads; it's fine, then one increment and the pressure jumps in my match rifle. I never tried 77 gr MK's in one of my rifles with a long throat, I suppose I should, I have a bunch. Which bullet and claim are you referring to? The Barnes.....Nosler or Sierra? |
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Quoted: Which bullet and claim are you referring to? The Barnes.....Nosler or Sierra? Quoted: Quoted: First time I have read about that claim. It's the last bullet I consider for .223 Rem ammunition due to spooky pressure nearing maximum loads; it's fine, then one increment and the pressure jumps in my match rifle. I never tried 77 gr MK's in one of my rifles with a long throat, I suppose I should, I have a bunch. Which bullet and claim are you referring to? The Barnes.....Nosler or Sierra? 77 grain MK's. (Or any other 77 grain bullet.) |
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We know the thickness of SMK jacket is 0.017” What is the thickness of the BARNES? Barrels with worn (rough) throats will damage jackets enough to make the jacket fail before reaching the target, especially if driven hard. I know nothing about the specs of the BARNES. Would be interested to hear from someone who has measured. Pretty sure most BERGER “match” bullets are 0.003” thinner than 77 SMK. I know for certain that HORNADY 75 match bullets are 0.003” thinner than 77 SMK. |
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Quoted: First time I have read about that claim about 77 grain MK's. It's the last bullet I consider for .223 Rem ammunition due to spooky pressure nearing maximum loads; it's fine, then one increment and the pressure jumps in my match rifle. I never tried 77 gr MK's in one of my rifles with a long throat, I suppose I should, I have a bunch. Are you using powders with nitroglycerine, i.e. ball powders or Alliant's RE-15? |
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Quoted: First time I have read about that claim about 77 grain MK's. It's the last bullet I consider for .223 Rem ammunition due to spooky pressure nearing maximum loads; it's fine, then one increment and the pressure jumps in my match rifle. I never tried 77 gr MK's in one of my rifles with a long throat, I suppose I should, I have a bunch. I'm sorry........... slow today or really any day............ So this is the first time you've heard something like ........"77gr SMK (and probably the Berger as well) are the most consistent and accurate bullets for reloading 223, with the Hornady 75gr a smidge behind ......." based on some pressure signs in your match rifle? Do I have that right? or? What happened in your match rifle? and what barrel? |
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Quoted: First time I have read about that claim about 77 grain MK's. It's the last bullet I consider for .223 Rem ammunition due to spooky pressure nearing maximum loads; it's fine, then one increment and the pressure jumps in my match rifle. I never tried 77 gr MK's in one of my rifles with a long throat, I suppose I should, I have a bunch. More details please. Tight throat? I've been running 77's from Nosler CC and RDF, Sierra SMK and TMK, as well as the Hornady 75 BTHP, in all sorts of bolt actions and ARs for 15 years. Never had a pressure problem unless I loaded well over the book maximum. Powders included H4895, 8208XBR, RL15, N540, N140, N133, 4320, TAC, H322, and some surplus ball powders with success. |
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Quoted: Are you using powders with nitroglycerine, i.e. ball powders or Alliant's RE-15? Quoted: Quoted: First time I have read about that claim about 77 grain MK's. It's the last bullet I consider for .223 Rem ammunition due to spooky pressure nearing maximum loads; it's fine, then one increment and the pressure jumps in my match rifle. I never tried 77 gr MK's in one of my rifles with a long throat, I suppose I should, I have a bunch. Are you using powders with nitroglycerine, i.e. ball powders or Alliant's RE-15? Reloder 15 |
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Quoted: I'm sorry........... slow today or really any day............ So this is the first time you've heard something like ........"77gr SMK (and probably the Berger as well) are the most consistent and accurate bullets for reloading 223, with the Hornady 75gr a smidge behind ......." based on some pressure signs in your match rifle? Do I have that right? or? What happened in your match rifle? and what barrel? Quoted: Quoted: First time I have read about that claim about 77 grain MK's. It's the last bullet I consider for .223 Rem ammunition due to spooky pressure nearing maximum loads; it's fine, then one increment and the pressure jumps in my match rifle. I never tried 77 gr MK's in one of my rifles with a long throat, I suppose I should, I have a bunch. I'm sorry........... slow today or really any day............ So this is the first time you've heard something like ........"77gr SMK (and probably the Berger as well) are the most consistent and accurate bullets for reloading 223, with the Hornady 75gr a smidge behind ......." based on some pressure signs in your match rifle? Do I have that right? or? What happened in your match rifle? and what barrel? Read again, there are two subjects, accuracy and pressure. I never noted remarkable accuracy with 77 gr MK's that I shot and had no motivation to chase them, 69 grain bullets worked to 300 yards and 80 grain bullets at 600 yards. The barrel is a three groove Lilja throated for 80 grain Bergers. |
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Quoted: Read again, there are two subjects, accuracy and pressure. I never noted remarkable accuracy with 77 gr MK's that I shot and had no motivation to chase them, 69 grain bullets worked to 300 yards and 80 grain bullets at 600 yards. The barrel is a three groove Lilja throated for 80 grain Bergers. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: First time I have read about that claim about 77 grain MK's. It's the last bullet I consider for .223 Rem ammunition due to spooky pressure nearing maximum loads; it's fine, then one increment and the pressure jumps in my match rifle. I never tried 77 gr MK's in one of my rifles with a long throat, I suppose I should, I have a bunch. I'm sorry........... slow today or really any day............ So this is the first time you've heard something like ........"77gr SMK (and probably the Berger as well) are the most consistent and accurate bullets for reloading 223, with the Hornady 75gr a smidge behind ......." based on some pressure signs in your match rifle? Do I have that right? or? What happened in your match rifle? and what barrel? Read again, there are two subjects, accuracy and pressure. I never noted remarkable accuracy with 77 gr MK's that I shot and had no motivation to chase them, 69 grain bullets worked to 300 yards and 80 grain bullets at 600 yards. The barrel is a three groove Lilja throated for 80 grain Bergers. Thats why I asked........................ :) The 77's have been shot ALOT, particularly in service rifle, and have been extremely accurate and easy to load for decades now. And R15, when available, was one of the go-to powders for that. But the typical SR barrel, I sure, isn't chambered like your match barrel. Thank you for the info............... I'll note to NOT get a 3-groove Lilja barrel. OR.............. What sigman said.................... |
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The pressure issue was sudden onset during load work up. Indications were fine, then one 0.3 grain increment and they weren't fine. And, I was loading typical "high-power" loads for the day, bullet speed as high as feasible. I stopped that. The Lilja barrel is innocent. That particular barrel came from a batch that built a pile of accurate guns from 11 inches to 24 inches long. They're still premium barrels. |
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Quoted: The pressure issue was sudden onset during load work up. Indications were fine, then one 0.3 grain increment and they weren't fine. And, I was loading typical "high-power" loads for the day, bullet speed as high as feasible. I stopped that. The Lilja barrel is innocent. That particular barrel came from a batch that built a pile of accurate guns from 11 inches to 24 inches long. They're still premium barrels. A lot of people are running 24.0 or 24.1 grains of RE-15 with Sierra 77's. I would try 23.8, 23.5 and 23.2 to see how they group. I am not in the camp that thinks higher velocity helps when the wind is blowing. IMO, the tightest shooting load is the one to run, then learn your drops and drifts. I still shoot 69 grain SMK's at 200/300 because they group the best for me. When you run the numbers, a 69 grain SMK is 100 fps faster than a 77, the wind drift difference is minimal. |
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Quoted: The pressure issue was sudden onset during load work up. Indications were fine, then one 0.3 grain increment and they weren't fine. And, I was loading typical "high-power" loads for the day, bullet speed as high as feasible. I stopped that. The Lilja barrel is innocent. That particular barrel came from a batch that built a pile of accurate guns from 11 inches to 24 inches long. They're still premium barrels. Sir: It's all good........... no worries. Yes, Lilja barrels are a good premium barrel, there's no innocence or guilt there. But its obvious two issues were at play here as you worked this load: -the barrel wasn't designed for the 77's. -without further explanation, you, I guess, were pushing the bullet too hard. (That or the chamber). The poor accuracy shows the first and to have a 0.3 increment of R15 go from good to over pressure, shows the second. |
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Quoted: If it was me asking this question, the first two people I'd have asked would have been OP and Molon. Thanks for the vote of confidence.  Terminal ballistics maybe, but I am not a precision guy - yet, anyway. Seems like few people have tried the Barnes, which is surprising. |
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Quoted: Thanks for the vote of confidence. Terminal ballistics maybe, but I am not a precision guy - yet, anyway. Seems like few people have tried the Barnes, which is surprising.Quoted: Quoted: If it was me asking this question, the first two people I'd have asked would have been OP and Molon. Thanks for the vote of confidence. Terminal ballistics maybe, but I am not a precision guy - yet, anyway. Seems like few people have tried the Barnes, which is surprising.I’m just saying that both of you have forgotten more about reloading than I’m ever going to know, and I’ve pulled the handle a few times myself. |
| I don’t think they shot any worse or any better than I’ve had smk’s shoot. But then again I’ve never had much success with any of the heavy weights. The heaviest bullets I’ve had shoot well for me, out of my barrels were 69gr tmk. The most accurate thing to come out of my current 12.5” barrel has been a 50gr vmax over the max charge of lt30 |
| Quite a few years ago some other Highpower shooters were using Barnes bullets. Barnes was also sponsoring some local and regional NRA matches, giving swag for the winners table. I seem to remember they had some production or availability issues and the interest dropped off. |
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Quoted: Lol just received another 500 77TMKs from palmetto/AAC. Not SMK, but good enough for now. Just the bullets? or loaded ammo? Either way, just so you know, it seems that AAC isn't making their bullets, just brass and loading up. Read #13 right here: https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/PSA-AAC-62-grain-fmj-non-green-tip-/16-786613/ JJE is the president or something of AAC. So those TMK's are Sierra's............... |
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Quoted: Just the bullets? or loaded ammo? Either way, just so you know, it seems that AAC isn't making their bullets, just brass and loading up. Read #13 right here: https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/PSA-AAC-62-grain-fmj-non-green-tip-/16-786613/ JJE is the president or something of AAC. So those TMK's are Sierra's............... Quoted: Quoted: Lol just received another 500 77TMKs from palmetto/AAC. Not SMK, but good enough for now. Just the bullets? or loaded ammo? Either way, just so you know, it seems that AAC isn't making their bullets, just brass and loading up. Read #13 right here: https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/PSA-AAC-62-grain-fmj-non-green-tip-/16-786613/ JJE is the president or something of AAC. So those TMK's are Sierra's............... I’m ok with it. |
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Quoted: I’m ok with it. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Lol just received another 500 77TMKs from palmetto/AAC. Not SMK, but good enough for now. Just the bullets? or loaded ammo? Either way, just so you know, it seems that AAC isn't making their bullets, just brass and loading up. Read #13 right here: https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/PSA-AAC-62-grain-fmj-non-green-tip-/16-786613/ JJE is the president or something of AAC. So those TMK's are Sierra's............... I’m ok with it. Nope, I would not complain at all.......... great bullet and last time I tested it, the AAC did well overall. |
| I’ve definitely had far better results with the tmk’s over smk’s, both in .223 as well as 6.5 grendel and 6.5 creedmoor. Actually now that I think about it, smk’s have never worked that well for me. To the point that it’s not even a bullet I consider using anymore |
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Quoted: I've definitely had far better results with the tmk's over smk's, both in .223 as well as 6.5 grendel and 6.5 creedmoor. Actually now that I think about it, smk's have never worked that well for me. To the point that it's not even a bullet I consider using anymore I guess I should have clarified in my OP that I was talking for ARs, and I think the TMK is too long to load to magazine length. |
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Quoted: I guess I should have clarified in my OP that I was talking for ARs, and I think the TMK is too long to load to magazine length. Idk about the 77, but the 69 will work. I’ve never shot the 77 tmk’s but my 10.5” vseven stainless “match” barrel loved the 69 tmk’s |
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Quoted: I guess I should have clarified in my OP that I was talking for ARs, and I think the TMK is too long to load to magazine length. Quoted: Quoted: I've definitely had far better results with the tmk's over smk's, both in .223 as well as 6.5 grendel and 6.5 creedmoor. Actually now that I think about it, smk's have never worked that well for me. To the point that it's not even a bullet I consider using anymore I guess I should have clarified in my OP that I was talking for ARs, and I think the TMK is too long to load to magazine length. They work fine in mags |
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You opened a whole new can of worms with that poll. I don’t think anything outshoots a 52 smk at a 100 never witnessed it n person anyway. 77 or 69 i think is gun dependent. I want to test bergers heavies against smk when i get my new bolt gun barrel idk if its evident in an ar???? |
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The SMKs shoot a little better than the TMKs for me. Also the 69s shoot a little better than the 77s. Not sure about Match Burners but I know when I researched them a while back some weren't happy with the consistency. Also in before people tell you that the 77 TMK is a great moose and elk bullet  
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Quoted: You opened a whole new can of worms with that poll. I don’t think anything outshoots a 52 smk at a 100 never witnessed it n person anyway. 77 or 69 i think is gun dependent. I want to test bergers heavies against smk when i get my new bolt gun barrel idk if its evident in an ar???? Shorter bullets are typically more accurate when comparing apples to apples. Does it matter if they all shoot under an inch out of your AR? Probably not. The benchrest competitors who measure groups down to .001" care, shoot slow twist barrels, and feed them with short bullets. |
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From my testing, the 52 & 69 SMK’s are probably the most accurate in the most guns. I’ve not seen the 77 SMK shoot quite as small of groups as the lighter versions. I’d start with Staball Match powder from your stash, and focus around known Varget loads. As for the TMK’s, they can be very accurate, but are very picky on powder and seating depth, so they are tougher to get ultra precise loads with. If you are ok with 1 to 1.5 MOA groups, you shouldn’t have a hard time, but if you are looking for sub .7 MOA, it may take some work. You should be able to get sub .7 MOA from all the SMK bullets fairly easily if you have an accurate rifle to start with. -ZA |
| I voted you try the Hornady 75gr BTHP for the sole reason that particular bullet has a surprisingly good performance on game. I would gladly shoot a deer with one. It is the only "target bullet" that seems to work well in that role, and I don't mean just expand and fragment, they actually seem to hold together decent, at least in 223 in online videos. I bet they become grenades in a 22-250. |
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Quoted: I ordered some 52/69/77gr SMKs and will see how they shoot.. I have Staball Match, TAC, and H4895 to play around with. If you get a line on some 77gr TMK, and feel like comparing them with the SMK apples-to-apples, let me know - I’ll chip in to the Zhukov reloading fund, or buy lunch or something, |
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Quoted: If you get a line on some 77gr TMK, and feel like comparing them with the SMK apples-to-apples, let me know - I'll chip in to the Zhukov reloading fund, or buy lunch or something, LOL - it's gonna cost ya'.  Along with reloads I'm planning to roll, I also found the following in my safe: (6) 30-round mags of 75gr Hornady BTHPs that I loaded up many years ago. Not the speediest (2650fps), but it's something to play with. (3) 30-round mags of 68gr BHTP ammo with cannelure. I have no idea what these are or when/how I got them, but I don't think I loaded these. They are all WCC brass with primer sealant. (1) 10-round stripper clip of Mk262. Arfcom buddy gave that to me eons ago. |
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Quoted: LOL - it's gonna cost ya'. Along with reloads I'm planning to roll, I also found the following in my safe: (6) 30-round mags of 75gr Hornady BTHPs that I loaded up many years ago. Not the speediest (2650fps), but it's something to play with. (3) 30-round mags of 68gr BHTP ammo with cannelure. I have no idea what these are or when/how I got them, but I don't think I loaded these. They are all WCC brass with primer sealant. (1) 10-round stripper clip of Mk262. Arfcom buddy gave that to me eons ago. Zhukov: The 68 stuff you have MIGHT be BHA....... ? At one time (and maybe stiil do) they sold loaded 68 ammo as one of their "Blue box" offerings. Tx: There are alot of good tests for both bullets posted online, including some great ones by Molon. Here's a test I posted of other ammo but the "validation groups" are from 77 TMK and SMK respectively. (So look at the 1st two groups in the imgur photos). https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/200yd-Groups-Velocities-of-Winchester-62OT-mk318-64-GD-and-others-/16-744061/?page=1&anc=bottom#bottom But I'll post some more groups down below........... Za206: Sir: I don't know what to tell you.......... When the TMK's came out I rapidly found great groups by following Sierras advice- load them like the SMK's. I'm sorry............. just load them to mag length (2.25) and get them going about 2750 -20" barrel and be done. They aren't a complicated bullet, just do that and be done with this. If you aren't getting good groups with that............ it's you or the barrel. Various 77TMK 200yd groups here: https://imgur.com/a/BpZ0Uwi Various 77SMK 200yd groups here: PS last one is factory mk262 https://imgur.com/a/XT6Xazp |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - 77gr SMK is the gold standard for 223 precision loads, but what about Barnes Matchburners? (Page 1 of 4)
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