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Posted: 1/18/2008 10:58:41 AM EDT
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Please forgive me if this has been covered before. I’m a member, so I can only search back 30 days, and I haven’t found anything with regard to what I’m about to ask. I recall M&A parts had a picture up a while back (may still be on their site) of an AR with a Glock mounted as a VFG. Now, I fully grasp the fact that it was essentially done as a joke, or merely in an exercise of “Look what I can do.”, but that would have made the Glock an SBR, correct? As it technically made the Glock a shoulder fired weapon with a rifled barrel under 16”, that would be the case, correct? The distinction that I’m actually looking for is, in setting up a Masterkey system on an AR (3 round Rem 870) one could not legally use an AOW, because you’d be creating the condition of it being a shoulder fired weapon., and therefore, one must use a shotgun registered as an SBS to conform with current laws. One more aspect, the Rifle and the Shotgun are still maintained as two separate firearm entities, even when connected. As in, the laws applying to one don’t carry over to the other, so an SBR AR-15 with a 14.5” (non perm) barrel could not have a Masterkey put on without the Shotgun being a separately legal SBS. Or is it an exception, much like a <16” barrel on a select fire weapon? As an NFA registered Auto can have an SBR length barrel on it, with out a separate tax stamp (because it’s already an NFA weapon), could a shortened shotgun be created for the express purpose of affixing it to an SBR and maintain legality? It'd be nice if that were the case, as I could save $200, but I'm resigned to the fact that it's still not do-able. Just thought it would be interesting to hear if anyone else had considered it. |
This is true if the rec. is the registered MG. Say it is an HK sear, then if you do not have the sear in the gun it has to be an SBR and another 200 bucks. I believe the over all opinion was that if you did mount a shotty on the quad rail it has to be a SBS. I believe it had to do with the serial number and the fact that it was actually a shotgun and not just a bolt on addition to another weapon. BIGFOOT |
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If you bolt a handgun or a smoothbore AOW to a firearm with a shoulder stock, the handgun/AOW becomes an unregistered SBR/SBS. So yes, if you want to do that, you need to first register the handgun/AOW as an SBR/SBS. Yes, they are separate firearms, even when connected. Just like a suppressor is a separate item requiring its own registration, even if you weld it to an already registered SBR. The legal definition of shotguns and rifles list a minimum barrel length and minimum overall length; if these minimums are not met, the shotgun and rifle fall into the SBS/SBR definitions. The legal definition of a machine gun has no minimum barrel length or overall length, and it also is neither a rifle, nor a shotgun, nor a handgun -- it is in its own category. Therefore, the barrel-length and overall-length requirements that apply to a rifle or shotgun do not apply to machine guns. Bottom line: What you're asking is not do-able. 
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) or a combo gun (rifle/shotgun) would it be a SBR, SBS or ??
A combination long gun with both rifled and smoothbore barrels does not fit the definition of either a rifle or shotgun; if you cut down the barrels, it would require registration as an AOW, since it is neither an SBR nor an SBS. |
Thanks! |
I keep thinking about doing that w/ one of the Savage combo guns in 12 ga / 30-30. We can't have SBS here. That would let me do something very similar as an AOW for a low price. (But I'd still have to pay $200 if I do it myself. Would probably dig up a C2 and have them cut it & register it.) |
I have seen several of those for sale. Alot of people also did that with those M6 Scout .22/.410 Rifle/Shotguns. |
Would you have to keep the barrel length between 12-18" to keep it from being a DD if it was shorter than 12"? |
Hafta wait until tony_k comes along to set us all straight. Seems like he is not only the class3 moderator but also the publisher/editor of everything that is written for C3. He said somewhere that he didn't, but I swear he wrote the book. |
 I still learn new stuff about NFA every day. I've just been doing this for long enough that I've made most of the common mistakes, learned from 'em, and now I try to help others avoid those landmines.  Anyway .... Yes, a AOW made from a combination rifle/shotgun is defined in the law as having barrels that are between 12" and 18". That said, BATFE has in the past approved Form 1s and accepted Form 2s for combo-gun-based AOWs with barrels shorter than 12". I don't know if that is policy, or if it happened by mistake, but they are out there. A combo gun with barrels shorter than 12" would not neccessarily qualify as a DD -- for instance, what if it were based on a Savage 24 that was .410 and .22RF? It's not an SBR, not an SBS, not a DD (.410 bore is not big enough), not a Title 1 handgun (one of its barrels is smoothbore) ... there is really nothing other than an AOW which it can be. You could write to BATFE Tech Branch ... but nine times out of 10, Tech Branch bases its decisions on an exclusionary approach: If something does not fit an existing legal Title 1 or Title 2 firearm category, it must be illegal (an approach which, of course, is contrary to our entire legal system -- in the U.S., everything is legal unless it is specifically prohibited by law). Again, I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice, but if I wanted to build a combo firearm with barrels less than 12", I would just submit the Form 1 for an AOW listing the barrel length I want, and see what happens. By so doing, I would be making a reasonable attempt to comply with NFA law. If they decide it belongs in an NFA category other than AOW, I'll just change the info in the "type" box of the Form 1 -- the $200 making tax is the same no matter what type of NFA device they say it is. And if they flat-out reject it as unbuildable, they need to cite the law which prohibits it.
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I have thought about cutting down a M6, but don't really see the point other than historical accuracy if you want a clone of the real thing. The Savage combo shotgun /rifle tempts me bacause I want a SBS and can't get one. I also like wierd guns. What I've been thinking about is cutting one down to about 12" and modifying it to take one of the AK side folding stocks. The problem is it would end up costing me $800+ by the time I got the gun, paid for the stamp & cut it, and I can't afford it right now. Especially for something which is a toy in the long run. |
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