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Posted: 7/6/2025 7:23:37 PM EDT
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I figure this is the right place to ask. If not, I apologize. I am designing an FRT for the Ruger 10/22. I have the bottom components figured out (everything in the trigger housing) but it needs a bolt with an anti-bounce weight and probably the spring loaded plunger/ detent as well. Anybody have machinest’s drawings or blueprints they are willing to share? |
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AZ, USA
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Originally Posted By hitchhiker: I figure this is the right place to ask. If not, I apologize. I am designing an FRT for the Ruger 10/22. I have the bottom components figured out (everything in the trigger housing) but it needs a bolt with an anti-bounce weight and probably the spring loaded plunger/ detent as well. Anybody have machinest’s drawings or blueprints they are willing to share? Years before I bought my conversion kit from John, I told him I had a B.M F. Activator on my 10/22. I told him it screwed up a lot. He said he could help with that ... Instead I bought a full auto kit from him. Sadly I sold my Norrell because of divorce. And I can't help with any demonsions . |
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My first transferrable MG was a RR AMT Lightning that Norrell converted to his system with the lever selector. I had this back in 1999. The bolt on mine broke. Norrell converted a new Ruger bolt for me and told me the original AMT bolts were cast and not the same quality as the Ruger bolts. The AMT bolt was using an anti-bounce weight he made which was still fine, it was just the AMT bolt body that broke. I saved that weight and just tried looking for it for a few minutes and didn't find it yet. I know I also saved the two pins that the weight slides on...but again we are talking 20+ years ago since the bolt broke and I'm not sure if I threw the parts away or what as I did sell my AMT Lightning a long time ago to get a RR M16. I'll try to spend some more time today to see if I can find it. I also asked him about buying a spare Ruger bolt that already had the anti-bounce weight set up and he told me he was unwilling to do that at the time. |
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Originally Posted By swampfoxoutdoors: I've seen a FA 10/22 that had dimples machined into the receiver on the inside top and the bolt had a ball detent that could have its pressure adjusted by tightening a screw on the underside of the bolt. |
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Originally Posted By amphibian: For clarification, the standard Norrell conversions I have seen also have a spring loaded plunger in the trigger group housing that engaged the detent groove in the bottom of the bolt. That's probably the way it was done. I was at a MG shoot and seen one taken apart being cleaning out and it was being shown to another shooter. |
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@Firestarter123 Im not familiar with that system, but from what I have gleaned it appears to require modifying the receiver. Couldnt find any pictures of it, though. Id like to make drop-in kits with a complete trigger housing and bolt; and without requiring any mods to the rest of the gun. |
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My initial thoughts, as someone already posted, would be hollowing out the interior on a stock bolt and adding lead shot, tungsten powder, or sliding weights a' la AR15 buffer. Maybe I missed it, are you trying to slow down the bolt opening or reduce bolt bounce? I wonder what partially filling the interior of the bolt (or AR15 buffer) with some sort of tungsten infused non-Newtonian fluid. |
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Originally Posted By hitchhiker: @Firestarter123 Im not familiar with that system, but from what I have gleaned it appears to require modifying the receiver. Couldnt find any pictures of it, though. Id like to make drop-in kits with a complete trigger housing and bolt; and without requiring any mods to the rest of the gun. Book Link |
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@bmarshall1 Bolt bounce. The FRT trigger pack I have works, but bolt bounce is keeping the gun from running. There isnt a lot of room on the 10/22 bolt to hollow out, its looking like a Norrell style anti-bounce weight might be the easiest path. The weight will probably have tungsten powder in it, sealed with some sort of epoxy. Or maybe Ill let it free slide, and seal it in a “box” (the anti-bounce weight) so it would be an anti-bounce weight inside an anti-bounce weight.. That might make it more effective. @Fireatarter123 Thanks for the link! Had no idea that was a thing, may have to print up the arrestor parts and see if if looks viable. |
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I own a Norrell conversion 10/22 and have personally made multiple anti-bounce 10/22 bolts including tungsten slow fire bolts for myself as well as local friends of mine that also own Norrell 10/22s. From my experience, the OEM Norrell bolt design with its reciprocating steel block by itself isn't enough to control bolt bounce completely. That is why there is the spring loaded detent plunger in the front of the lower trigger frame that interfaces with a cutout on the bottom of the bolt as a secondary anti-bounce measure. Neither are capably of controlling bolt bounce by themselves, but the combination of the steel anti-bounce weight and the plunger is what makes the system work. Every Norrell gun I have personal experience with if you back the set screw out removing all pressure from the anti-bounce plunger the gun won't run. The downside to the anti-bounce plunger arrangement is it creates a bunch of friction as the gun gets dirty as the spring loaded plunger pushes the bolt up into the roof of the receiver creating drag that eventually once dirty causes ROF issues and eventually FTEs. The other downside as has been mentioned is that there isn't much material left on the bolt the way Norrell design cuts them, so between the little remaining material on the bolt body and the 90 degree stress risers at the fore and aft end of the pocket the bolts have a tendency to break/snap. The tungsten slowfire bolts I have made are a different design where you leave a bunch more material on the underside of the bolt as you don't need anywhere near as much Tungsten as you do steel so the reciprocating weight can be smaller and still weigh more than the steel weight design. You also dont have to mod the hammer nor drill and weld in the anti-bounce guide rods like the OEM Norrell design. However, there is another design issue with the Norrell bolt I found when reviewing bolt bounce under high speed camera and that is due to the fact that the Norrell design only uses one steel anti-bounce weight directly impacting the steel bolt (vs multiple stacked weights with polymer discs like an AR15 buffer). So the anti-bounce weight controls the initial bounce of the bolt itself but then the anti-bounce weight itself bounces rearward reopening the bolt from the barrel face as the anti-bounce weight flys rearward and smacks the rear of the anti-bounce weight pocket in the bolt. This is more pronounced on the tungsten weight vs. steel weight but still occurs on both which is another reason for the spring loaded plunger as a secondary anti-bounce mechanism. My final tungsten bolt design has small tungsten anti-bounce weight cylinders inside the main anti-bounce weigh itself and I also use thin polymer buffers (like an AR does) So the main antibounce weight controls bolt bounce and the anti-bounce-weight-cylinders inside the anti-bounce weight then control the antibounce weight from bouncing rearward itself and re-opening the action. With this design you can dispense with the spring loaded detent plunger completely. Just as an FYI the 10/22 bolts are really hard and not easy to machine. You will need a vertical mill with a tungsten carbide end mill to even make a dent on the hardened surface. I don't have any blueprints or drawings as I have historically just done all of this by hand using calipers and a manual mill. Every time I post about 10/22 I end up with a litany of PMed asking me to make folks bolts as theirs have broken or they want spares and nobody will make them a replacement bolts. (I am not in Norrell 10/22 commercial bolt sales so please don't PM me asking to make you a replacement or spare bolt.) Honestly the amount of effort and cost you are looking at to make this all function on a 10/22, its going to be a lot easier to use a standard FRT in an AR lower with a CMMG 22LR kit and all the bore buddy anti-bounce reliability parts to make it work. Good luck with your project and hopefully you can find a solution that will work with your FRT design. |
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@jbntex Wow, thanks for all that! Offhand, do you know the total weight of your final bolt and the weight of the tungsten anti-bounce assembly? If you dont mind sharing, that is. I have thought of another route to get the same effect, but it would be super helpful to have a rough idea on ballpark weights. I may do a super safety .22 AR for myself eventually; but I like the idea of a 10/22 FRT more. |
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From my notes My current tungsten slowfire 10/22 bolt is 7.5oz. For reference standard 10/22 bolts weigh between 6.2oz and 6.5oz depending upon the manufacturer. The original Norrell bolt that came with my gun was 5.6oz. You lose mass on the bolt as the bolt is cut for the anti-bounce weight and the anti-bounce weight doesn't add all the mass back as it needs room to slide back and forth. None of these values above include the weight of the charging handle which will add a bit more reciprocating mass depending upon what type of handle you use. |
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Originally Posted By jbntex: From my notes My current tungsten slowfire 10/22 bolt is 7.5oz. For reference standard 10/22 bolts weigh between 6.2oz and 6.5oz depending upon the manufacturer. The original Norrell bolt that came with my gun was 5.6oz. You lose mass on the bolt as the bolt is cut for the anti-bounce weight and the anti-bounce weight doesn't add all the mass back as it needs room to slide back and forth. None of these values above include the weight of the charging handle which will add a bit more reciprocating mass depending upon what type of handle you use. A cylindrical tungsten charging handle maybe a cheaper alternative. Than machining a bolt. I know my cfw bolt for my m11 was expensive and the seller on Uzitalk made a few for M10s but said the cost was so high for the raw materials it wasn’t really feasible. A 10/22 charging handle that’s knurled would be small and inexpensive relatively. |
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Originally Posted By swampfoxoutdoors: A cylindrical tungsten charging handle maybe a cheaper alternative. Than machining a bolt. I know my cfw bolt for my m11 was expensive and the seller on Uzitalk made a few for M10s but said the cost was so high for the raw materials it wasn’t really feasible. A 10/22 charging handle that’s knurled would be small and inexpensive relatively. Unfortunately, you can't just add mass to a closed bolt gun like you can a MAC. An open bolt gun like an M11/9 or an M10 you don't have a bolt bounce problems as the cartridge is ignited as the bolt is closing on the chamber, usually with a fixed protruding firing pin. On a closed bolt gun like an M16 or a 10/22 you have the bolt and/or carrier close on the chamber and that forward inertia of of the bolt/carrier then bounces the bolt/carrier back open just like a basketball off the court floor. The hammer then get tripped and falls only to impact an action that is no longer closed resulting in a light or no firing pin strike to the primer. The M16 deals with this by having both a separate rotating bolt and carrier as well as a buffer that is comprised of sliding weight that come forward impacting the rear of the bolt group as it trying to bounce open keeping the bolt group closed. These sliding weights inside the buffer also have rubber discs that separate the weights to keep the weight themselves from bouncing around themselves. The M16/9 has no rotating bolt as the bolt and carrier are one piece and the standard non-SMG specific buffers on 9mm are usually just a solid heavy steel buffer so those guns really suffer from bolt bounce and light firing pin strikes unless you use the proper SMG specific buffer. The 10/22 like the 9mm M16 SMG is a single piece bolt with no locking mechanism so it also really suffers from bolt bounce and since the 10/22 was never designed to be full auto there is really limited options to deal with the high propensity for the action to bounce open during full auto fire. (i.e. there is no factory SMG buffer option) This is one of the reasons most post sample 10/22's machineguns you see are converted to open bolt like a MAC so you don't have to deal with the bolt bounce problem. I actually machined a full tungsten charging handle for a 10/22 at one point just in an attempt to try and slow things down a bit more and found out that the heavy handle caused more problems than it resolved. The issue is the handle when you have a huge mass sticking out the side of the gun has its own bounce problems, especially if the handle as any wiggle room on the slot on the bolt. For a slowfire 10/22 bolt you are starting with a standard steel bolt as if you made the whole bolt out of tungsten it would be too heavy to cycle. On a 10/22 (barrel length, suppressor, and ammo dependent) ~8oz is amount the max you can run with normal 22lr ammo, no suppressor, and a reasonably short barrel without causing choppy ROF and/or reliability issues. The first proto tungsten anti-bounce 10/22 bolt I made weighted in excess of 8oz and had both reliability issues and also quickly broke. The biggest issue isn't the cost, it the difficulty and time involved in machining a hollow square pocket in the back of a super hard 10/22 bolt as well as machining a cube of alloyed tungsten into a perfectly sized cube to fit that hole top to bottom and side to side while also allowing it to slide fore and aft a couple mm. To make one its probably a couple hundred bucks in material between a nice KIDD 10/22 bolt, 1" cube of tungsten, and a bunch of wrecked carbide end mills but it probably takes me 6 to 8 hours in labor start to finish to make one. Attached File |
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@jbntex Thanks for all of this info. Your bolt looks like one of the ideas I had rattling around in my head. Does the tungsten weight simply slide out the side of the bolt once the bolt is out of the gun, or is it retained in some way to keep it from sliding from side to side? The easiest way to produce them is with wire EDM, if you have the machine or know somebody that does. Those squared corners in the hole look like they werent fun. I have a different idea for placement of the tungsten weights that would be easier to produce. The total bolt weight would be around an ounce heavier than the factory bolt. Tungsten weight would be between 1 and 1.5oz, depending on how it worked out. How critical is the free sliding gap? Im thinking of starting around .040”. |
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Originally Posted By jbntex: Unfortunately, you can't just add mass to a closed bolt gun like you can a MAC. An open bolt gun like an M11/9 or an M10 you don't have a bolt bounce problems as the cartridge is ignited as the bolt is closing on the chamber, usually with a fixed protruding firing pin. On a closed bolt gun like an M16 or a 10/22 you have the bolt and/or carrier close on the chamber and that forward inertia of of the bolt/carrier then bounces the bolt/carrier back open just like a basketball off the court floor. The hammer then get tripped and falls only to impact an action that is no longer closed resulting in a light or no firing pin strike to the primer. The M16 deals with this by having both a separate rotating bolt and carrier as well as a buffer that is comprised of sliding weight that come forward impacting the rear of the bolt group as it trying to bounce open keeping the bolt group closed. These sliding weights inside the buffer also have rubber discs that separate the weights to keep the weight themselves from bouncing around themselves. The M16/9 has no rotating bolt as the bolt and carrier are one piece and the standard non-SMG specific buffers on 9mm are usually just a solid heavy steel buffer so those guns really suffer from bolt bounce and light firing pin strikes unless you use the proper SMG specific buffer. The 10/22 like the 9mm M16 SMG is a single piece bolt with no locking mechanism so it also really suffers from bolt bounce and since the 10/22 was never designed to be full auto there is really limited options to deal with the high propensity for the action to bounce open during full auto fire. (i.e. there is no factory SMG buffer option) This is one of the reasons most post sample 10/22's machineguns you see are converted to open bolt like a MAC so you don't have to deal with the bolt bounce problem. I actually machined a full tungsten charging handle for a 10/22 at one point just in an attempt to try and slow things down a bit more and found out that the heavy handle caused more problems than it resolved. The issue is the handle when you have a huge mass sticking out the side of the gun has its own bounce problems, especially if the handle as any wiggle room on the slot on the bolt. For a slowfire 10/22 bolt you are starting with a standard steel bolt as if you made the whole bolt out of tungsten it would be too heavy to cycle. On a 10/22 (barrel length, suppressor, and ammo dependent) ~8oz is amount the max you can run with normal 22lr ammo, no suppressor, and a reasonably short barrel without causing choppy ROF and/or reliability issues. The first proto tungsten anti-bounce 10/22 bolt I made weighted in excess of 8oz and had both reliability issues and also quickly broke. The biggest issue isn't the cost, it the difficulty and time involved in machining a hollow square pocket in the back of a super hard 10/22 bolt as well as machining a cube of alloyed tungsten into a perfectly sized cube to fit that hole top to bottom and side to side while also allowing it to slide fore and aft a couple mm. To make one its probably a couple hundred bucks in material between a nice KIDD 10/22 bolt, 1" cube of tungsten, and a bunch of wrecked carbide end mills but it probably takes me 6 to 8 hours in labor start to finish to make one. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/3567/Norrel_Tungsten_Bolt_2a_jpg-1498186.JPG Very impressive bolt and good information. I want to see OP succeed in this. |
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Originally Posted By hitchhiker: @jbntex Thanks for all of this info. Your bolt looks like one of the ideas I had rattling around in my head. Does the tungsten weight simply slide out the side of the bolt once the bolt is out of the gun, or is it retained in some way to keep it from sliding from side to side? The easiest way to produce them is with wire EDM, if you have the machine or know somebody that does. Those squared corners in the hole look like they werent fun. I have a different idea for placement of the tungsten weights that would be easier to produce. The total bolt weight would be around an ounce heavier than the factory bolt. Tungsten weight would be between 1 and 1.5oz, depending on how it worked out. How critical is the free sliding gap? Im thinking of starting around .040”. Wire EDM is definitely the way to go on these if you have access to one. At one point (since I had a bunch of folks ask me to make these) I got a couple quotes for EDM cut bolts. The quotes I got back for a small run of bolts was hundreds of dollars per bolt to have the pocket wire EDMed once you factored in both the NRE and samples. Wire EDM still leaves you with the tungsten cube to machine and all the other fitment, testing, etc. The cost for a $150 bolt, plus a couple hundred to EDM the pocket, plus $100 in Tungsten, plus maybe 3 or 4 hours of my time to fit everything, test, etc. and it still turned out to be way more than anybody would probably want to spend for a 10/22 bolt. In support of making the bolt commercially easier and economically viable, I have had folks suggest trying to have a set of broaching dies made to finish the pocket but given how hard the surface is on the bolts I don't think broaches would work without distortion of the bolt itself. Another suggestion I have had is to leave the corners of the pocket rounded but then you are having to try and machine the tungsten anti-bounce weight with rounded corners to match the bolts rounded corner pocket profile. Machining tungsten, even alloyed tungsten is pretty challenging and whatever you probably save in machining time on the bolt just translates to more time on the weight. Ultimately at this point in my life I have pretty much come to the conclusion I won't ever commercially manufacture and sell anything firearm related due to the civil liability aspect so never really explored it further. If I ever wanted another one for myself or a local friend I would just repeat the known good process. To answer your technical questions. The anti-bounce weight is retained side to side and won't fall out when the bolt is removed from the gun as there is a channel cut in the top of the weight that uses the firing pin as the retainer. I am not sure how critical the anti-bounce weight sliding gap technically is but if memory serves correctly I just roughly mirrored the sliding gap on the original Norrell bolt which was a bit more like 0.05 to 0.06". I never really messed with trying to change that anti-bounce weight gap on the 10/22 bolt to see how it changed the effectiveness of its anti-bounce properties. However there does seem to be a correlation to anti-bounce effectiveness if the gap for the weights is too big as I have been working on a couple Registered Lighting Link based M16 22lr host platforms this year and the anti-bounce weight gap inside a standard AR buffer seems to be more effective in 22lr when its shortened up a bit compared to the weight gap inside a standard 5.56 buffer. T My guess is that on a 5.56 M16 there is a delay in the action closing as the weights probably start sliding inside the buffer as soon as the carrier slows down once it starts rotating the bolt so you need more gap in terms of timing for the weights by the time the bolt fully rotates and the carrier fully closes and has a chance to bounce open. On a 22lr given the bolt is one piece so it bounces immediately upon contact with the barrel so you need to shorten up the gap and timing of the anti-bounce weights. That RLL project is still a work in progress at this point so I have no definitive conclusions, but too much gap/delay in the anti-bounce weights closing seems to lose effectiveness if the bolt has already bounced open before the weight/s get a chance move forward and do their job. (which would make sense) |
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@jbntex Again, I really appreciate you sharing your experience and insight! For broaching, bolt distortion looks like it would definately warp the bolt; if not split it. Youd just about have to clamp it in a machinests vise to keep the top and bottom from bulging. I think I may have a way to make them more easilly. Time will tell. They would sell well on their own minus the FRT, for people with Norrell packs and suppresor hosts. Eliminating bolt bounce would make suppressed 10/22s sound better, IMO. |
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Originally Posted By Bounce19712: @hitchhiker Open bolt MG converted to SA for retail sales Originally Posted By Bounce19712: Originally Posted By hitchhiker: @Bounce19712 Is it a machine gun converted from a semi auto or what? Those are open bolt guns if I remember correctly. Should just run if its an open bolt gun. @hitchhiker Open bolt MG converted to SA for retail sales The PPS-43 pistols are converted to closed bolt, and are hammer fired. |
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