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Posted: 7/23/2009 5:16:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Hawkeye]
The following is just something that I decided to do for my own T&E purposes, but I thought I’d post it up here in case anyone was interested in it. Most of it is just my opinion and mine alone, based on my likes, dislikes, and personal observations via my own first hand experiences, or first hand of a trusted friend. I urge you to try things out for yourselves, and come to your own conclusions. If your results and observations are different, then they are different.
First, I wanted to say a few things about BDU’s in general and the material with which they are made. Before I do though, I feel I must point out that my use for BDU’s is not for fun, or play, or a “hobby”. I have them for serious use. So that is the context in which I’ll be viewing and commenting from. I think much of the time, people do not give much thought (if any) to the material that the BDU’s they are purchasing are made from. In my experience, the material is an extremely important factor. First, you have Twill material, and Ripstop material. Twill being a smooth material, Ripstop having raised ridges in the material forming a grid type pattern, which is designed to help prevent a rip from spreading once it starts. Second, you have the makeup of the material itself. The most common ones being, 100% cotton, 60/40 Cotton/Polyester, 65/35 Polyester/Cotton *, and 50/50 Nylon/Cotton. There are a couple of others, be these seem to be the most common. Most are available in either a Twill or Ripstop form, but that varies from brand to brand. * Note - There are a couple of different “weights” of the 65/35 materials available. BDU.com has some good general info out on the various materials here. http://www.bdu.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=fabric-guide&Category_Code=acu-coats And Propper has some good info here. https://www.epropper.com/fabrics.php My personal favorite materials have long been 50/50 NYCO and 60/40 Cotton/Poly. I have found that these are great year round materials for me, doing well in both summer and winter conditions, wet or dry. I have long had a dislike for 100% cotton material. I find that it wears very fast, is not that durable, fades quickly, and is, in my opinion, downright dangerous when wet regardless of the source of the moisture or the time of year. How a material handles moisture, i.e.- how well does it resist and/or absorb moisture, what does it do with moisture once wet, i.e.- does it tend to hold it, or does it evaporate it quickly, etc. is a extremely key factor to me. 65/35 Poly/Cotton has always been a strong, durable material, but I never liked it much outside of very cold conditions. I found it generally to be too heavy of a material, almost canvas like. However, I recently decided to try a couple of pair of Propper BDU’s made from their 65/35 Poly/Cotton Ripstop that they call their “BattleRip” material, after noticing that it was of a lighter weight than what some are. After wearing the pants to work for a couple of weeks, I have completely fallen in love with them and the material. I have found it to be very comfortable in the heat, and have no doubt that with proper base layers, it will do well in the cold. They also have proven to do very well when wet, and as previously mentioned, that’s a big thing for me. Moving on to camo patterns. This is an extremely debatable topic, that some folks get really wrapped up on. Use whatever pattern you like, just don’t be quick to rule out something other than your personal favorite, and don’t be too quick to judge another on their choice. Get what you think you like, and then test it for yourself, in multiple environments, locations, conditions, etc. I decided to take the 4 patterns that I have come to like best, and do some very informal pictures of them. They aren’t professional pictures, and they aren’t meant to be. Again, just did these for my own reasons and thought I’d share. As you may pick up from some of the pictures, shadows and lighting can play a huge part in helping, or hurting, your concealment efforts. Pay close attention to that when your in the field. Usually, shadows are your friend, but sometimes, the opposite is true. I don’t think that there is any one pattern that truly works to the optimum, everywhere. I do think that there are some that come very close, but, I think that the USMC was really smart in going with 2 different color schemes. The following is a series of pictures I took using 4 different BDU tops. Multicam, Woodland Digital, Desert Digital, and X-Camo digital. I included the Desert digital, as I think too many people write it off as being no good anywhere except the desert. I think some may be a little surprised to see just how well khaki’s and tan’s can work in a non-desert environment. For the most part, there is little to no vegetation in front of them, and I did this on purpose. This is just to give a view of how they may or may not appear when viewed in front of concealing vegetation, vs. mixed in it, or more behind it. I'll get to those pics and such later. The sky was mostly clear and it was very sunny. The Woodland and Desert digitals are Propper's 65/35 Poly/Cotton Ripstop from their ACU line. The Multicam is 55/45 Cotton/Poly Ripstop from SKD Tactical. The X-Camo is 60/40 Cotton/Poly Ripstop from MOC. All the shots were taken in series at each location in the following order……..Multicam, Desert Digital, Woodland Digital, and last X-Camo Digital. 1st view…….. 2nd view……….. 3rd view………. Here are 2 extra’s I took of the X-Camo digital……. And one extra of the Woodland digital………… Random thoughts so far…. The Propper Woodland digital was really impressive in a number of spots that I placed it and really surprised me. I plan on getting some more of it for sure. I am really liking the material, the construction, and the price. I had hoped the Multicam would produce slightly better results. We’ll see how things play out with the future things I plan to try….. Speaking of that……. I have quite a few more pics and such that I plan to take and post, so if your interested, stay tuned and I’ll post updates as I do them. |
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Protego quod vallo.
Si vis pacem, para bellum. |
I was asked later in this thread, to put up some of my thoughts on recommended brands, etc.. So, here are the ones that I like. Keep in mind, these are what I like, based off my own personal uses (serious use, prepardness minded, utlility focused) and experiences. Anything not listed is because I either dont like it for my uses or, because I havent tried it.
In no particular order : * SKD (Multicam) * Propper ACU line (Multicam, Digital Woodland, Digital Desert, Khaki) * Propper Discount BDU line (Khaki) * Tru-Spec Pro G line (Digital Woodland, Digital Desert) * Tru-Spec TRU line (Coyote) {They also offer Mutlicam and Digital Woodland and Desert in the TRU line, and I assume that they would be equal in quality to the Coyote ones, but I havent tried them first hand} MOC X-camo - The first iteration was ok construction wise, but the material wasnt the best in the world. The second iteration was again ok construction wise, but the material is even worse than the first, and not servicable for my use. I think the color scheme and such has a lot of promise though. |
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Protego quod vallo.
Si vis pacem, para bellum. |
Reserved for future posts....
Adding RAF's post from page 19.... There is currently a thread in the Night Vision forum here, about how various camo shows up when the observer is using NVDs. In short, some camo quite effective in daylight is not nearly so effective when seen using NVDs.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_18/423814_NODS_and_cammo_concelament.html&page=1 On Pg 3 of the linked topic is a link to another thread in the NVD forum, which discusses dyeing various camo uniforms, and which thread also discusses the ways clothing of any sort can be ruined (when illuminated by IR light) if washed in the improper detergents. There is also info in the proper detergents to use. View Quote |
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Protego quod vallo.
Si vis pacem, para bellum. |
that woodland digital is pretty snazy. got any up close and personals of that pattern?
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WHAT..multicam didnt steal the show
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http://www.youtube.com/delta69alpha
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Originally Posted By calicojack:
that woodland digital is pretty snazy. got any up close and personals of that pattern? I agree. Since you are having such fun with pics, can we see some close ups of the patterns? Seperately, then in the same pic for comparison? Also, do you think that a side-by-side shot might be useful? Now, a criticism. Not of you or your work, but in general. Terrain has so much to do with what camoflage is best. Here in central Texas (especially last few years) there is not that much green anywhere. Browner camoflauge mixes in very well. Maybe what we need is for several members to collaberate and do a photo session like this in different terrain around the nation with the patterns. Also, this is a topic that comes up so much that perhaps a sticky is in order. Good work! |
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Originally Posted By imortal:
Terrain has so much to do with what camoflage is best. Here in central Texas (especially last few years) there is not that much green anywhere. Browner camoflauge mixes in very well. Maybe what we need is for several members to collaberate and do a photo session like this in different terrain around the nation with the patterns. Also, this is a topic that comes up so much that perhaps a sticky is in order. I did multicam pics for a year, several side by side with woodland http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=10&t=256386 |
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Originally Posted By protus:
WHAT..multicam didnt steal the show You have much to learn young padawan. |
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Protego quod vallo.
Si vis pacem, para bellum. |
Originally Posted By calicojack:
that woodland digital is pretty snazy. got any up close and personals of that pattern? Yeah, its been impressing me more and more over the last year. |
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Protego quod vallo.
Si vis pacem, para bellum. |
Originally Posted By BB868:
Originally Posted By imortal:
Terrain has so much to do with what camoflage is best. Here in central Texas (especially last few years) there is not that much green anywhere. Browner camoflauge mixes in very well. Maybe what we need is for several members to collaberate and do a photo session like this in different terrain around the nation with the patterns. Also, this is a topic that comes up so much that perhaps a sticky is in order. I did multicam pics for a year, several side by side with woodland http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=10&t=256386 Thanks for putting that link up. Its a good reference for additional comparison. |
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Protego quod vallo.
Si vis pacem, para bellum. |
Originally Posted By Hawkeye:
Originally Posted By BB868:
Originally Posted By imortal:
Terrain has so much to do with what camoflage is best. Here in central Texas (especially last few years) there is not that much green anywhere. Browner camoflauge mixes in very well. Maybe what we need is for several members to collaberate and do a photo session like this in different terrain around the nation with the patterns. Also, this is a topic that comes up so much that perhaps a sticky is in order. I did multicam pics for a year, several side by side with woodland http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=10&t=256386 Thanks for putting that link up. Its a good reference for additional comparison. Yup, pretty good. You two need do collaberate on a combined thread for posting. Oh, and Hawkeye, looks like that Digital Desert camo works pretty well in blending into your carpet! |
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Tagged to see or not see more camo!
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Dude I have that same carpet.
Good stuff - I look forward to the followups. |
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Let's Go Red Wings!
Beautifying the world one logo at a time since 1993. Attention "Republicans": NO MORE COMPROMISES. Soli Deo Gloria |
Very nice study, I'd like to see ACU in the mix......
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That is Woodland Digital. If you look at it, it seems to be a digital version of Multicam, but I am not 100% sure of that.
I don't know if it is just me, but I get sort of a Tiger-stripe camo feel off of the Woodland Digital. I mean, I like it, but it feels... off for some reason. |
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Originally Posted By imortal:
That is Woodland Digital. If you look at it, it seems to be a digital version of Multicam, but I am not 100% sure of that. I don't know if it is just me, but I get sort of a Tiger-stripe camo feel off of the Woodland Digital. I mean, I like it, but it feels... off for some reason. Actually the top left is x-camo, the bottom one it digital woodland. but yes i some sense Tiger Stripe also in the X-camo, and also in the woodland digital. |
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Originally Posted By Hawkeye: Originally Posted By protus: WHAT..multicam didnt steal the show You have much to learn young padawan. Not really just bustin your balls about the M/C. Ive been playing with digi woodland for a few years and it seems to do alot better overall down here than mc imho. Now other areas up north out west it more than likely out performs digi. YMMV... |
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http://www.youtube.com/delta69alpha
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Originally Posted By jtb0311:
Originally Posted By Hawkeye:
Here is one pic of the 3 digital patterns. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/Hawkeye1/Gear/Digitals/3tops1.jpg I saw some SF guys in Afghanistan wearing the one on the top left last spring. What is it? As noted above, the top left is MOC's X-Camo. Top right is Propper's Desert Digital, bottomo is Propper's Woodland Digital. |
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Protego quod vallo.
Si vis pacem, para bellum. |
Originally Posted By imortal:
Hawkeye, you mentioned in another thread that you had some older woodland digital camo, and that it has been 'toned down' since. Is this you have displayed here the older or newer kind? If you have seen both, could you elaborate? Also, does anyone know if the 5.11 woodland digital camo and the Propper woodland digital camo are the same mix. or are they competing? I was referring to the X-Camo. They appear to have toned down the tan in it just a bit so its not quite as "bright" so to speak. I'll have a newer set of it soon as whats in the picture is the older one. The woodland that 5.11 is using is very close to the X-Camo in pattern and colors. Also, I am about to the point where I need a listed thread just with a picture of each pattern with just a description of what the pattern is and who it is use by, if anyone. The woodland digital looks similar to the USMC, but I am not sure if it is the same pattern (with or without the AEG) or just similar.
To my knowledge, the digital woodland and desert that Propper uses is pretty darn close to actual MARPAT minus the EGA. Might also be a bit of difference in the actual pattern of the pixelation used vs. MARPAT, but I believe the colors are the same. I have someone I can verify that through, but in the meantime, if anyone knows for sure, feel free to correct me if I am wrong. |
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Protego quod vallo.
Si vis pacem, para bellum. |
Originally Posted By Hawkeye:
To my knowledge, the digital woodland and desert that Propper uses is pretty darn close to actual MARPAT minus the EGA. Might also be a bit of difference in the actual pattern of the pixelation used vs. MARPAT, but I believe the colors are the same. I have someone I can verify that through, but in the meantime, if anyone knows for sure, feel free to correct me if I am wrong. i believe you are right about that, if i remember correctly its just the civi version( or versions if you include propper Desert digital) of marpat. |
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Originally Posted By kodiak0202: Originally Posted By Hawkeye: To my knowledge, the digital woodland and desert that Propper uses is pretty darn close to actual MARPAT minus the EGA. Might also be a bit of difference in the actual pattern of the pixelation used vs. MARPAT, but I believe the colors are the same. I have someone I can verify that through, but in the meantime, if anyone knows for sure, feel free to correct me if I am wrong. i believe you are right about that, if i remember correctly its just the civi version( or versions if you include propper Desert digital) of marpat. true specs digi woodland is darker- less brown. The propper brand is almost spot on what issue marpat is. |
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http://www.youtube.com/delta69alpha
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Originally Posted By imortal:
I found this when I googled 'digital multicam', although people are claiming it is not. Can anyone ID the pattern for me, and maybe point me to another thread if it has already been discussed? BB868, I see you posted this also a while back. Any info? http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=10&t=257282 |
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Pffft ! the hell with these. I'm waiting for the predator Cloaking device
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Originally Posted By 5oulja:
Pffft ! the hell with these. I'm waiting for the predator Cloaking device Is right. Though I sure wouuld like to have one of those..... |
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Protego quod vallo.
Si vis pacem, para bellum. |
Protego quod vallo.
Si vis pacem, para bellum. |
Some interesting sites for when you've got some time....
http://www.hyperstealth.com/camo/faq/ http://www.hyperstealth.com/tigerpat/ |
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I think that x-camo or whatever you said it is has too much of that white/light tan color or whatever it is in it. It seems bright almost to me. Maybe it's just me though.
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Being a contributing member means you contribute – to a TECH FORUM...
"If another mod is needed the current mod will let us know." TBK1 |
Originally Posted By TxSoldier:
I think that x-camo or whatever you said it is has too much of that white/light tan color or whatever it is in it. It seems bright almost to me. Maybe it's just me though. The tan in the X-Camo is very bright. Thats something that my buddy and I mentioned to the folks at MOC when we spoke with them at the SHOT show back in January. They commented that they were actually in the process of toning it down a bit. The last time I was at the store here locally that sells it, I noticed that they had new stock on the shelves, and it seemed to have the changes they mentioned at SHOT. I plan on picking up a newer pair and comparing them as well. My buddy is also doing a little experiment with his that I hope to through up when he gets done. |
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Protego quod vallo.
Si vis pacem, para bellum. |
Originally Posted By MOS2111:
AS a tag, you planning on doing them under IR with Night Vision? Might change the game a smidge.... http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d54/mos2111/DryNVGlayout017.jpg http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d54/mos2111/DryNVGlayout002.jpg That is a good possibility...... Keep in mind though, that Propper plainly states that their digital BDU's are not NIR rated. |
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Protego quod vallo.
Si vis pacem, para bellum. |
Hawkeye, you have done some really good write-ups, and your pictures have been every educational. It made me doubt my previous ideas and consider the camoflage situation from scratch. I do still think that multicam serves me best here in central Texas. Like we discussed before, it is largly a matter of terrain and vegitation. Your pictures do a great job in showing that not all camo is good in all situations, though.
I am curious. What is your personal opinion of the pattern that best suits you in your area? |
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Originally Posted By Texkaw:
The new ACUs are very effective..... If you are fighting a war in your living room... http://i30.tinypic.com/257nedi.jpg You have never heard me talk about a new rifle purchase with the wife! A set of ACUs might come in handy! Actually, Straight Coyote blends in great with my couch. |
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Originally Posted By KBL:
Some interesting sites for when you've got some time.... http://www.hyperstealth.com/camo/faq/ http://www.hyperstealth.com/tigerpat/ Thanks. I've checked out their site before. It would be nice to see how some of their patterns actually look/work when printed on material, and to actually be able to purchase some BDU's to try out. |
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Protego quod vallo.
Si vis pacem, para bellum. |
Originally Posted By Hawkeye:
Originally Posted By KBL:
Some interesting sites for when you've got some time.... http://www.hyperstealth.com/camo/faq/ http://www.hyperstealth.com/tigerpat/ Thanks. I've checked out their site before. It would be nice to see how some of their patterns actually look/work when printed on material, and to actually be able to purchase some BDU's to try out. Yeah, I agree. Those images don't give you much of an idea of their effectiveness in real life scenarios - especially as it relates to various cover, shading, lightness/darkness. I have several std. patterns of camo, i.e., ERDL (lowland "lime" & highland brown dominant), woodland, original advisor tiger stripe (a little faded), the later more brown dominant tiger stripe, and some flecktarn. I need to get some photos done of them in various Florida environments. I already know that faded ERDL in both patterns is effective, and the newer brown dominant tiger stripe as well. The advisor tiger stripe is very effective in thick vegetation where there is much shadowing and only intermittent light...especially at close range. But, it's hard to evaluate the patterns when your wearing them...I need some perspective from a distance. |
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that new one does really have a more multicam look to it.
think if you just wash the shit out of the old one, it will fade to look like the new one. maybe some side by side between them and multicam for shits and giggles. |
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now if we could just get some of the gear folks to start making woodland digital or x-camo pouches and rigs...
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Protego quod vallo.
Si vis pacem, para bellum. |
well, I ment "in the wood's"
but, I'll give you an 'A' for effort |
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Originally Posted By BB868:
well, I ment "in the wood's" but, I'll give you an 'A' for effort Patience my good man....patience...... |
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Protego quod vallo.
Si vis pacem, para bellum. |
Originally Posted By calicojack:
now if we could just get some of the gear folks to start making woodland digital or x-camo pouches and rigs... Tactical Tailor does offer a lot of their gear in both Digital Woodland and Digital Desert. Honestly, I like the idea of just using Coyote gear, that way you have some versatility and can run it with any of the 3 digitals. |
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Protego quod vallo.
Si vis pacem, para bellum. |
Originally Posted By MOS2111:
But multicam works with all the digitals too! http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d54/mos2111/30JulyRange022.jpg Hey, my old thread on IR reflectivity got canned. I don't own any "non licensed" patterns, only crye multicam and issue Marpat and woodland. Would you be willing to show yours under IR and I will show mine? I have had some questions about the IR treatment process, how it affects different materials and such. WOW, that multicam looks great with the woodland marpat. I would really like to see a shot of the mulitcam equipment with desert marpat just to see if it works both ways! Any chance you could hook that up? |
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Yes. I will play dress up after I go run and post the pic of my holster thats for sale. Should be later tonight...
And no one had better call me fat. And as an edit: you will find that it wont work so well. The arid desert colors only work in the desert and with tan. This is why my basic 1st line in tan, it blends anywhere. The only use I have for Marpat Desert is the bottoms outside of combat. You can combine the bottoms with a multicam/marpat woodland top. Thus your 1st line blends, and your 2nd line blends and you end up looking like a tree (brown trunk, green top) I will throw a gambit of pics up then.... In hops of not hijacking. |
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Being a contributing member means you contribute – to a TECH FORUM...
"If another mod is needed the current mod will let us know." TBK1 |
but all i see is a round brown spot.....
in all seriousness though. i'm VERY surprised by the cadpat/mc combo working so well. i guess i shouldn't be, but i am. btw, this thread is in the review section, and i was trying to find your old one mos, but i guess it hit the archives. |
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