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Posted: 12/28/2008 7:30:59 AM EDT
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I have read all the Class III stuff I can, but have a very basic question.
If I wanted to own a SBR, I would need to have a registered lower, correct? To go about doing this I would have to buy a lower (or use one off a complete rifle I own), pay the $200, wait, and then get approved and have to engrave the lower. Still right? Now, say I get a lower registered to be a SBR, how many short complete uppers can I own? One per lower? 1000? I really want to be SBR capable within the next year but have no idea where to start. Am I better off buying a complete rifle already short or SBRing a stripped lower and going that route. Thanks |
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There is actually a gray area here guys. I agree that you should be allowed to own as many shorty uppers as you wish for the registered SBR. BUT, be aware if you ever piss off the ATF and they want to screw with you, and find AR15s AND extra uppers for the SBR (even if never mounted on the unregistered AR15s) they might try out the "intent" thang.
You might want to do some research over at Subguns.com. I don't think there is even a full agreement there. Gotta love innocent until proven guilty (or pissed off a law enforcement agency). |
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Quoted: If I am in no way worried about my local LEO signing off on my Class III, is there any reason to form a trust or corporation? Also, if I have already been fingerprinted for a concealed carry license do I have to get refingerprinted and everything? Yes, you have to be fingerprinted again. You can own as many short uppers as you wish for your SBR registered lower. And cdogg44, yes you can buy a complete upper and have it sent to your door. Some places require you to send a copy of the tax stamp in but others dont. Jimmybcool, I think as long as those "unregistered ar15's" have the legal length upper for each one then it does not matter. I mean they cant do anything about it because you do have a registered SBR and legal 16" barrels for each unregistered ar15. |
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Quoted:
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If I am in no way worried about my local LEO signing off on my Class III, is there any reason to form a trust or corporation? Also, if I have already been fingerprinted for a concealed carry license do I have to get refingerprinted and everything? Yes, you have to be fingerprinted again. You can own as many short uppers as you wish for your SBR registered lower. And cdogg44, yes you can buy a complete upper and have it sent to your door. Some places require you to send a copy of the tax stamp in but others dont. Jimmybcool, I think as long as those "unregistered ar15's" have the legal length upper for each one then it does not matter. I mean they cant do anything about it because you do have a registered SBR and legal 16" barrels for each unregistered ar15. who gives a rat's ass about having to get fingerprinted "again"? a trust, LLC, Corp. should only be used if your CLEO is an ass and just flat out refuses to sign. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: If I am in no way worried about my local LEO signing off on my Class III, is there any reason to form a trust or corporation? Also, if I have already been fingerprinted for a concealed carry license do I have to get refingerprinted and everything? Yes, you have to be fingerprinted again. You can own as many short uppers as you wish for your SBR registered lower. And cdogg44, yes you can buy a complete upper and have it sent to your door. Some places require you to send a copy of the tax stamp in but others dont. Jimmybcool, I think as long as those "unregistered ar15's" have the legal length upper for each one then it does not matter. I mean they cant do anything about it because you do have a registered SBR and legal 16" barrels for each unregistered ar15. who gives a rat's ass about having to get fingerprinted "again"? a trust, LLC, Corp. should only be used if your CLEO is an ass and just flat out refuses to sign. What are you talking about? I was answering his question asking since he had been fingerprinted once does he have to be fingerprinted again. And the answer is yes you do. Thats why you give a rats ass about it because if you dont do it again then alot of your time is wasted. |
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Thanks for the answers.
If I have a lawyer buddy that can set me a trust up pretty reasonable, would that in your opinion be a better long term route (if I planned to add more uppers/suppressors) in the future? Once I NFA engrave a lower, can I sell it to somebody else (given they meet the NFA requirements)? |
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Quoted: I have no help on the trust issue except that if your CLEO will sign I wouldn't do a trust. Only because its alot more stuff to complicate things.Thanks for the answers. If I have a lawyer buddy that can set me a trust up pretty reasonable, would that in your opinion be a better long term route (if I planned to add more uppers/suppressors) in the future? Once I NFA engrave a lower, can I sell it to somebody else (given they meet the NFA requirements)? If you decide you want to sell your NFA it will have to be transferred to the new owner. That means they will have to pay the $200 tax to get it. And I aint 100% but I think it will have to be transferred through a form 4. |
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Quoted:
I think a trust uncomplicates things. It's just plain easy, and easier than any other route. It's not a loophole, or anything dodgy. The CLEO signoff and fingerprinting process may seem complicated, but once that is accomplished, no further maintenance is required from an ownership standpoint. I think that's what he meant. Even for trusts, there are complications that far exceed the individual route including interstate moves and the execution of the trust. To put it simply, the individual route is a known quantity of work. |
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Quoted:
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I think a trust uncomplicates things. It's just plain easy, and easier than any other route. It's not a loophole, or anything dodgy. The CLEO signoff and fingerprinting process may seem complicated, but once that is accomplished, no further maintenance is required from an ownership standpoint. I think that's what he meant. Even for trusts, there are complications that far exceed the individual route including interstate moves and the execution of the trust. To put it simply, the individual route is a known quantity of work. exactly –– and I don't give a rat's ass about being fingerprinted .. they've already had ..not like I am trying to hide something. and it takes what abut 5-10 min every time I decide to get another NFA? CLEO signoff .. not a deal-breaker. NOW if you couldn't obtain a CLEO signoff then yes - trust - but if you can get it .. I just dont see the point .. especially since a trust is not an option for me (MO law) |
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If I live inside city limits does it matter if I get the chief of police or county sheriff to sign off? I know the sheriff a lot better and both would sign, but I'm still thinking of going the trust route for the future. I know getting signatures and fingerprints is no big deal, but still if I can avoid it I'd be happier.
Plus I really am not all that thrilled about the sheriff or COP knowing what I've got (small town). Thanks for all the help so far! |
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If I live inside city limits does it matter if I get the chief of police or county sheriff to sign off? Either one is fine.I know the sheriff a lot better and both would sign, but I'm still thinking of going the trust route for the future. The trust route may be simpler in the short run, but the individual route is simpler in the long run.
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This might be off topic but, does the lower have to be engraved? If so then what would be engraved, your trust? Name? A random new serial?
I would assume that on the Form 1 the only identifier would be the original serial.... How much does it normally cost to have it engraved? |
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Your name (or your trust/corp/whatever's name if you go that route), city and state must be engraved on the reciever or the barrel of the weapon. If you go the barrel route, it must be engraved on every barrel you use with that weapon.
Cost is normally around $25-40 plus shipping if you cant find someone local. Kharn |
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This might be off topic but, does the lower have to be engraved? You need to engrave "the frame, receiver, or barrel". Engraving the lower is the way to go on an AR-15.If so then what would be engraved, your trust? Name? The maker's (individual's, trust's, LLC's) name, city and state:JOE BLOW HOUSTON TX JOE BLOW TRUST HOUSTON TX JOE BLOW LLC HOUSTON TX A random new serial? No need to engrave a new serial number if it already has one.I would assume that on the Form 1 the only identifier would be the original serial.... There are locations on the Form 1 for the original manufacturer's name, location, model and serial number.
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Quoted:
If I live inside city limits does it matter if I get the chief of police or county sheriff to sign off? Either one is fine.
I know the sheriff a lot better and both would sign, but I'm still thinking of going the trust route for the future. The trust route may be simpler in the short run, but the individual route is simpler in the long run.Could you explain the long term benifits/downfalls of both a trust and individual ownership? What happens to individual owned NFA stuff when you die? I also like the trust for the ability to list multiple people who can use the firearm when I'm not around, which would probably only be future spouse and probably my dad. |
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Could you explain the long term benifits/downfalls of both a trust and individual ownership? What happens to individual owned NFA stuff when you die? I also like the trust for the ability to list multiple people who can use the firearm when I'm not around, which would probably only be future spouse and probably my dad. When you die with an individually-registered NFA weapon, it transfers tax-free to the person you designate in your will. Trusts are not as simple as 'use Willmaker, sign, notarize', I've heard many states have laws regarding upkeep and other required actions vs an individual form 1/4 does not require any action once you get your stamp back. Frankly, use a trust as a last resort if you cant get a CLEO signature, otherwise do individual. How often do you expect your (future) spouse and father to take your guns to the range without you? Kharn |
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Quoted:
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Could you explain the long term benifits/downfalls of both a trust and individual ownership? What happens to individual owned NFA stuff when you die? I also like the trust for the ability to list multiple people who can use the firearm when I'm not around, which would probably only be future spouse and probably my dad. When you die with an individually-registered NFA weapon, it transfers tax-free to the person you designate in your will. Trusts are not as simple as 'use Willmaker, sign, notarize', I've heard many states have laws regarding upkeep and other required actions vs an individual form 1/4 does not require any action once you get your stamp back. Frankly, use a trust as a last resort if you cant get a CLEO signature, otherwise do individual. How often do you expect your (future) spouse and father to take your guns to the range without you? Kharn Ok I think you just made up my mind to use the individual route. Thank you all for the info. |
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Quoted:
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Could you explain the long term benifits/downfalls of both a trust and individual ownership? What happens to individual owned NFA stuff when you die? I also like the trust for the ability to list multiple people who can use the firearm when I'm not around, which would probably only be future spouse and probably my dad. When you die with an individually-registered NFA weapon, it transfers tax-free to the person you designate in your will. Trusts are not as simple as 'use Willmaker, sign, notarize', I've heard many states have laws regarding upkeep and other required actions vs an individual form 1/4 does not require any action once you get your stamp back. Frankly, use a trust as a last resort if you cant get a CLEO signature, otherwise do individual. How often do you expect your (future) spouse and father to take your guns to the range without you? Kharn Ok I think you just made up my mind to use the individual route. Thank you all for the info. Not often but if my wife has to move the item for whatever reason while I'm overseas again would she be able to use a power of attorney or would we have to go the trust route? |
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as long as it is locked up (pelican case that she doesn't have keys to) then yes she can move it to a different location. She is not in direct control of the gun .. you are since you didn't give her the key.  That works. Would it help any if she had a power of attorney general or specific? |
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Quoted:
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as long as it is locked up (pelican case that she doesn't have keys to) then yes she can move it to a different location. She is not in direct control of the gun .. you are since you didn't give her the key. That works. Would it help any if she had a power of attorney general or specific? not really .. she would just be storing a box with a lock for you .. don't need power of attorney for that. |
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As for engraving, you also need to include the caliber(s) along with the name/city/state.
As far as how many SBR uppers you can have on hand, if you have doubt then buy yourself a registered pistol lower and you're definitely covered. They're cool anyway, and everyone needs to have one laying around....right? 
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Quoted:
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I think a trust uncomplicates things. It's just plain easy, and easier than any other route. It's not a loophole, or anything dodgy. The CLEO signoff and fingerprinting process may seem complicated, but once that is accomplished, no further maintenance is required from an ownership standpoint. I think that's what he meant. Even for trusts, there are complications that far exceed the individual route including interstate moves and the execution of the trust. To put it simply, the individual route is a known quantity of work. How is a interstate move any different for an individual or trust ? How many of you guys that have trust set up have a EIN or TIN # for the trust ? Did you know your trust can earn up to $600.00 a year in interest with out paying tax's on it . This info comes from the IRS by the way . What is the form 5 for ? |
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How is a interstate move any different for an individual or trust ? Trust laws vary from state to state, so you should plan on having your trust reviewed by an attorney in your new state of residence, as a minimum.Did you know your trust can earn up to $600.00 a year in interest with out paying tax's on it . Then you have the "joy" of filing a Form 1041 every year.  What is the form 5 for ? Form 5 = Application for Tax Exempt Transfer and Registration of Firearm. It's used to transfer NFA firearms, tax-free, from an estate to an heir. In theory, it can be used to transfer NFA firearms, tax-free, from a trust to a beneficiary as well.
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How is a interstate move any different for an individual or trust ? Trust laws vary from state to state, so you should plan on having your trust reviewed by an attorney in your new state of residence, as a minimum.
Estate laws vary state to state also .What must a individual do to change states with a NFA item ? Did you know your trust can earn up to $600.00 a year in interest with out paying tax's on it . Then you have the "joy" of filing a Form 1041 every year.
Thats OK I have to file every year anyhow . This way I get payed to do it now
What is the form 5 for ? Form 5 = Application for Tax Exempt Transfer and Registration of Firearm. It's used to transfer NFA firearms, tax-free, from an estate to an heir. In theory, it can be used to transfer NFA firearms, tax-free, from a trust to a beneficiary as well.Thats what I thought , I will have to look into this more . Thanks for the info
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Estate laws vary state to state also . True, but an individual doesn't need a valid will to own NFA.What must a individual do to change states with a NFA item ? The registered owner needs to file an Application to Transport Interstate in advance. Some states impose additional hurdles, such as licensing or registration.
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Estate laws vary state to state also . True, but an individual doesn't need a valid will to own NFA.
Also true but one would be a fool to have not made provisions for the NFA items at the time of thier death. What must a individual do to change states with a NFA item ? The registered owner needs to file an Application to Transport Interstate in advance. Some states impose additional hurdles, such as licensing or registration.Never mind I see now that it will move the item permanently . |
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I was told that the above application was good for only 1 year from the date it was approved . Is this true ? It depends how you answer the question, "Firearms to be returned to original Location".If you answer "Yes", you can have up to one year to go back and forth with the listed items. If you answer "No", you can have up to one year to move the listed items to your new state of residence. |
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