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Posted: 7/21/2011 9:00:22 AM EDT
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The title says it all....... EXCEPT............
Don't use concrete... You heard correctly. The only concrete you can use is what is already in place, such as a basement floor or foundation wall. I am asking this because there are times when people simply cannot sling concrete, either because of architectural considerations (especially when talking about a roof) or other reasons. So, in order to help determine if just getting the concrete in one way or the other is a better deal than doing it another way, I'd like to explore other ways. What I have in mind is as follows: Build the wal using aluminum studs with no space between them, screwed to one another. In the spaces, install vertical rebar welded to horizontal regab installed not more then 1 foot apart. Stuff the spaces left with fire-rated insulation. Over the studs, on the outside of the room, glue and screw two layers of 3/4" plywood, followed by a layer of cement board and another of drywall. On the inside, put up one layer of expanded metal mesh, a layer of plywood, and one of drywall. Finish the drywall as usual. The drywall inside allows you to hang almost anything inside the room without having to hunt for a stud to nail or screw into. Build the ceiling in a similar manner: same studs, rebar, expanded wire mesh, and insulation, with two sheets of drywall and one of cement board. Benefits: can be done by anyone and with good OPSEC. Reasonable fire protection (I think). Cons: can be cut through with the proper tools, but will take some time or else make a lot of noise. Meets storm shelter standards. Not as fire-resistant as concrete. Two concerns I have with this approach are: 1) would it really be easier and CHEAPER to just use concete blocks, lay down a course, insert rebar, fill with concrete, repeat... 2) would the construction above be in any way strong enough to mount a decent safe door? Anyway, just throwing around ideas to identify options. At the very least, I REALLY need ideas on how to construct the roof of such a room even if I do use concrete for the walls.... So there it is. Let 'er rip... |
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Aluminum studs? No. Use 12g steel studs if you want to go the framed wall route. Use plaster instead of all those layers of plywood, cement board, drywall. There are 4-hour plaster wall designs out there. Concrete block wall requires a foundation for support. Cut out the existing concrete floor, excavate, rebar, waterproofing, etc. For the lid above the concrete block walls, use metal deck and fill it with concrete, or form and place rebar and concrete ala old school. Post pics. |
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I have plans to do a safe/vault room next year once some other projects around the house are finished and I am pretty sure I am going to go the composite construction route.
Obviously the gold standard seems to be a 12 to 16" solid concrete reinforced wall and ceiling but for me (like alot of folks modifying existing construction) it is extremely impractical. There is absolutely no way I am going to ever convince my wife that I need to potentially cut out part of the foundation of the house and/or put tons of solid concrete walls on our existing cement slab and hope it doesnt crack. Like 99% of the folks in the world I rely on a decent gun safe "aka residential security container" that anybody who shows up with a sawz-all and a dozen decent blades is going to cut a hole in no time. Who cares how thick the door is or how many bolts it has, etc. the sides and tops of most "gun" safes are not going to stand up to a saw-zall not to mention a gas powered concrete/cutoff saw. In my albeit limited demo experience stuff made from a composite of materials is much more of a nightmare to get through than a single material. There are blades for metal, wood, concrete but none of them really do a good job at all three at the same time. Stuff where there is plywood with cement board over it and glue and then tile, etc. is just a nightmare to tear through. Although I admit I am not using a gas powered saw indoors since I don't want to gas myself and potentially die of carbon monoxide poisoning. I think it would personally be harder to get through a 8" composite wall made out of metal mesh, rebar, plywood, glue and cement board than an 8" standard concrete block wall even with some rebar in it. Concrete blocks under the power of a motivated individual with a sledge hammer come part much easier than I would have ever suspected. If they are left hollow they dont stand a chance. I would assume If you pre concrete saw cut a filled concrete block wall and only have an inch of the actual block material on the backside I would think you could probably hammer through pretty quick given how brittle oncrete blocks actually are. However, on a composite wall if the last two inches you couldnt cut with a standard cutoff saw (due ot blade depth limiatation) were plywood you are going to be hammering for a long time before you will break the remaining two inches of plywood. (especially if there is still 6 inches of material in front of thoes last two sheets that is just score cut but still glued in place). I guess you could then probably drill four corner holes and then use a sawzall with a long blade to then cut the last two inches following the precut slices the cutoff saw made. Could somebody get through a composite wall...sure if you brought a concrete saw, a bunch of blades, a gasmask for the smoke the wood and construction adhesive would produce, a sawz-all, blades for it, drill etc. or had access to one of thoes cart mounted giant cuttoff saws. Honestly at that point I would think most folks would just go and cut through the vault door if they had a standard gas powered cutoff saw as at least you wouldnt have to deal with the fumes from burning construction adhesive and it gumming up your blades. Even if the door was half inch plate it would be easier to deal with. At the end of the day it would be better than 99% of the RSC rated guns safes out there and could be built for probably less than the cost of two high end RSC rated Safes. If somebody does show up with all the tools necessary to cut through, manages to do it faster than the police get there from the alarm system, well at that point the final layer of defense will be the insurance policy. |
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Interesting take.
I'd much rather have a room than a safe. Access would be so much easier... I agree that while the wife would be ok with me building such a composite structure, there's no way in hell she'd let me cut the foundation slab for it... So if one does a composite wall, how best to anchor the door without using wood? Concrete frame only, maybe? |
I wanted a "safe room/armory/storm shelter installed in our den...THAT idea when over really well when the wife came home and found the blue tape outline on the floor
I'm been toying with the idea of having a room built on the back of the house, right off my office. and having something likethis built into it 
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OUTSTANDING! 
If I may.... How is the EMM held on to the studs? Are the cross bars held in any way other than by the wood? What are the globs of adhesive for? Locking screws/bolts? Do you think wood studs are better than steel, especially when considering fire protection? Etc., etc., etc..... |
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OUTSTANDING!
If I may.... How is the EMM held on to the studs? A combination of spax lag screws and my own fasteners made from 2 x 3/16" strip steel. Are the cross bars held in any way other than by the wood? No - just the wood. They are very, very tight and would not be removed my hand. I used a sledge to pound most into place. What are the globs of adhesive for? Locking screws/bolts? It was to deter someone from easily unscrewing the torx/Phillips head if they ever got that far. They'd have a mess with the drywall and plywood first. Do you think wood studs are better than steel, especially when considering fire protection? As long as you have the 5/8 firecode drywall I don't know if it would matter. I started this project with the intent of just enclosing a part of the garage to keep it a/c and the dust out - then it just got crazy. I didn't use any plans and just built it up as I went along. Etc., etc., etc..... |
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FYI.... if i remember correctly he had pieces of rebar loose inside the pipe to spin if someone tried to cut it too. Yeah that was the idea. It was 3/4 conduit with another 1/2 piece inside free spinning. Bloody hell. That's brilliant. Never occurred to me... |
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I wanted a "safe room/armory/storm shelter installed in our den...THAT idea when over really well when the wife came home and found the blue tape outline on the floor
I'm been toying with the idea of having a room built on the back of the house, right off my office. and having something likethis built into it http://www.tennesseestormshelters.us/images/DSC03341.JPG Very nice, but DAMN it's expensive! Almost $12K for 8x8 feet.  
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Interesting take. I'd much rather have a room than a safe. Access would be so much easier... I agree that while the wife would be ok with me building such a composite structure, there's no way in hell she'd let me cut the foundation slab for it... So if one does a composite wall, how best to anchor the door without using wood? Concrete frame only, maybe? That was my motivation as well as I hate digging out 12 guns to get to one in back. Being able to hang everything on the wall without stuff in front of it would be a huge bonus. My hypothetical personal plan for the door frame was to weld up a steel door frame outline in the shape of a "T" out of two pieces of "L" angle steel. "_||_" and then "lamninate" the double part of the frame "||" into the walls as I built them. Once the walls are finished just drill holes for the door bolts directly through the frame and into the composite walls and sleeve the holes with stainless tubing and epoxy the tubes in place and then face weld them to the frame. |
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Interesting take. I'd much rather have a room than a safe. Access would be so much easier... I agree that while the wife would be ok with me building such a composite structure, there's no way in hell she'd let me cut the foundation slab for it... So if one does a composite wall, how best to anchor the door without using wood? Concrete frame only, maybe? That was my motivation as well as I hate digging out 12 guns to get to one in back. Being able to hang everything on the wall without stuff in front of it would be a huge bonus. My hypothetical personal plan for the door frame was to weld up a steel door frame outline in the shape of a "T" out of two pieces of "L" angle steel. "_||_" and then "lamninate" the double part of the frame "||" into the walls as I built them. Once the walls are finished just drill holes for the door bolts directly through the frame and into the composite walls and sleeve the holes with stainless tubing and epoxy the tubes in place and then face weld them to the frame. Maybe I should sell my project as a complete plan/blueprints: 
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Interesting take. I'd much rather have a room than a safe. Access would be so much easier... I agree that while the wife would be ok with me building such a composite structure, there's no way in hell she'd let me cut the foundation slab for it... So if one does a composite wall, how best to anchor the door without using wood? Concrete frame only, maybe? That was my motivation as well as I hate digging out 12 guns to get to one in back. Being able to hang everything on the wall without stuff in front of it would be a huge bonus. My hypothetical personal plan for the door frame was to weld up a steel door frame outline in the shape of a "T" out of two pieces of "L" angle steel. "_||_" and then "lamninate" the double part of the frame "||" into the walls as I built them. Once the walls are finished just drill holes for the door bolts directly through the frame and into the composite walls and sleeve the holes with stainless tubing and epoxy the tubes in place and then face weld them to the frame. Maybe I should sell my project as a complete plan/blueprints: http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSC03466.JPG http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSC03471.JPG http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSC03489.JPG Do, because then nobody will be able to plan action against you. Am I the only guy on this site who thinks posting pics of security at your f*cking home on the f*cking internet is a bad idea? |
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Interesting take. Do, because then nobody will be able to plan action against you. Am I the only guy on this site who thinks posting pics of security at your f*cking home on the f*cking internet is a bad idea? I'm paranoid but not that paranoid. The chances of winning Mega millions are better then some thief reading these threads, finding out where you live and then attempting to steal your stuff. |
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Interesting take. I'd much rather have a room than a safe. Access would be so much easier... I agree that while the wife would be ok with me building such a composite structure, there's no way in hell she'd let me cut the foundation slab for it... So if one does a composite wall, how best to anchor the door without using wood? Concrete frame only, maybe? That was my motivation as well as I hate digging out 12 guns to get to one in back. Being able to hang everything on the wall without stuff in front of it would be a huge bonus. My hypothetical personal plan for the door frame was to weld up a steel door frame outline in the shape of a "T" out of two pieces of "L" angle steel. "_||_" and then "lamninate" the double part of the frame "||" into the walls as I built them. Once the walls are finished just drill holes for the door bolts directly through the frame and into the composite walls and sleeve the holes with stainless tubing and epoxy the tubes in place and then face weld them to the frame. Maybe I should sell my project as a complete plan/blueprints: http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSC03466.JPG http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSC03471.JPG http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSC03489.JPG Do, because then nobody will be able to plan action against you. Am I the only guy on this site who thinks posting pics of security at your f*cking home on the f*cking internet is a bad idea? Then get rid of the entire forum since that's what it's here for. 60+ pages of gun room and safe/security pictures - I don't think most people are too concerned. Agree that it isn't the best thing if you're paranoid Pete, but most folks are not. |
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I am still on the fence as to whether I want to build my own door or just purchase a traditional vault door from sturdy, fort knox, etc.
That looks like a really sturdy door you have welded up but I dont think I would want to have to deal with the padlocks and managing keys. I was actually contemplating building a similar type door but harvesting the S&G lock and all the mechnism out of my existing safe when I am done with it and putting it into a larger door. I figured I would just need to make the bolts longer. The other option would be to sell the existing safe and take the money and put it toward a professional built door (which is the way I am leaning right now) and building the opening to match. Then again what fun is there in not building it yourself...until it doesnt open one day from something that went wrong
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I am still on the fence as to whether I want to build my own door or just purchase a traditional vault door from sturdy, fort knox, etc. That looks like a really sturdy door you have welded up but I dont think I would want to have to deal with the padlocks and managing keys. I was actually contemplating building a similar type door but harvesting the S&G lock and all the mechnism out of my existing safe when I am done with it and putting it into a larger door. I figured I would just need to make the bolts longer. The other option would be to sell the existing safe and take the money and put it toward a professional built door (which is the way I am leaning right now) and building the opening to match. Then again what fun is there in not building it yourself...until it doesnt open one day from something that went wrong The keys and locks do get excessive. Six keys if I locked every one, but the two hockey puck locks get most of the work. A third in the middle might have been an option and just lock the one when being away isn't a big deal. It was a good learning experience building it and cost about $600 in materials. The fun part is knowing its something you built and designed. Luckily I had a friend whonis great at welding, so he ran the beads. I would change a few things to make it more secure if I did it again, but not bad for a prototype I designed from nothing. |
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My composite wall. 5/8 firecode drywall on each side. http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSC030672.JPG Can you provide specs on the mesh you used? |
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