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Posted: 6/5/2012 12:31:42 PM EDT
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There's another OP running currently involving setback.
Oddly enough. OP is being told to back crimp off. As if backing crimp off will magically correct setback. Setback is a cartridge adjusting to feed within tolerences inside feed channel. I have a simple way of explaining feed correction. " You can tune weapon to cartridge or tune cartridge to weapon." Or We can adjust both for maximum feed ability. Backing crimp off to avoid or ignore set back is dangerous and out right stupid. Having some one hurt over incompetent advice is serious and it happens. This is a tech forum. One of the most technical at Arfcom. Opinions don't replace fact. If you post in response to OP and you don't exactly have your head wrapped around topic it's best to say you don't or don't post at all. Some feed issues aren't die related. Maybe wrong bullet or gunsmith issue. Adjusting dies hardly fixes internal weapon issues. Bottom line. Setback is bad and never be allowed to occur. Highly tuned weapons require little to zero crimp. Untuned feed channels can require a lot of crimp. Sidenote. Straight wall pistol brass doesn't "springback" like one poster suggested. |
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Don't you think starting another thread about an existing thread that has not run its course so you can lecture all of us on how we're all wrong seems a little arrogant? Why don't you go back and help the OP if you're so positive you know both the problem and the cure.
The fact is, you don't. None of us do. We're not actually there to see his problem in person and help him. Best we can do is go off the information he gave us and try to guide him. His crimp was CLEARLY excessive. He didn't even have any case mouth to headspace off of. That's a starting point. He cannot adjust seat depth too much from where he is. The bullet has a very short shank. Not that he shouldn't try, but there are other factors that could be at play. If the bullet is moving "easily" as the OP said, that sounds like a neck tension problem to me. You are clear to speculate as I am as to what the problem is, but I don't think you can be so sure we're all wrong as to come in and lecture us all about it. |
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What thread are you referring too? It's not imperative OP be identified. Let's say it's on page 15, 3 up from another OP running a pole for powder selection. We get crops of new reloaders every few months. The biggest crop comes along from now through September. Last summer's bunch are up and running good. Even a few who survived despite their initial refusal to avoid short cuts. This is technical and should be taken seriously, for your safety. |
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Flat nose in .45acp was/is designed for feed in weapons like Springfields XD, XDm.
I can design that bullet and weapon channel to feed but why ? When there's choices designed for 1911. Bullet design can be inclusive to specific weapons. Ammunitiom makers have had to deal with Sig's short chambers. FN was designed for striker fired weapons. To expect one bullet to feed in every weapon is naiive. Part of reloading is identifying what works with what crimp and at what oal. There's a good OP covering this issue on page two in gateway called, why loading .45acp isn't like loading 9mm. Thank you, dryflash3. |
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Granted his bullet was set too long for correct feed. But, He also had the crimp way too much. Shorten the bullet and use less crimp andd it will feed.
Oh, an for the ones that say there is no brass springback, You need to to learn about swaging your own bullets. Because it does happen. I cast and swage my own bullets an you have to set the dies to overcome it. Or bond the lead to the jacket. |
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So what is the proper way to check how neck tension or crimp is need on a 223 round. I would think you would measure it. Crimp is suppose to be like .001 less at the point of crimp than the rest of the neck of the round or case in pistols. I think that's right I could be wrong. |
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Granted his bullet was set too long for correct feed. But, He also had the crimp way too much. Shorten the bullet and use less crimp and it will feed. Oh, an for the ones that say there is no brass springback, You need to to learn about swaging your own bullets. Because it does happen. I cast and swage my own bullets an you have to set the dies to overcome it. Or bond the lead to the jacket. You will also find that cast bullets will size different in the same sizing die depending on what your alloy is |
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I also forgot to say that with the bullets in the OP about the rainer bullets those are copper washed bullets normally called copper plated, correct. If so there will be no springback like there is suppose to be with fmj's. The copper is bonded to the lead " washed on" in a solution of copper I think somewhat similar to electrolysis.
You definately don't want a lot of crimp to the point of deforming the round but if there is an issue with bullet setback and you are crimping your bullets the crimp line on a soft lead bullet or copper plated bullet with get worse and appear like there is way too much crimp when most of it was actually caused by the bullet trying to be setback in the case during what malfunction is causing the bullet setback. It will mushroom it out and back overtop the crimp. Which is kinda like what it looks in the pictures. I could be wrong so take my advice for what you will. |
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So what is the proper way to check how neck tension or crimp is need on a 223 round. I would think you would measure it. Crimp is suppose to be like .001 less at the point of crimp than the rest of the neck of the round or case in pistols. I think that's right I could be wrong. Even with a dynamite set of calipers that is hard to check with consistency. |
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So what is the proper way to check how neck tension or crimp is need on a 223 round. I would think you would measure it. Crimp is suppose to be like .001 less at the point of crimp than the rest of the neck of the round or case in pistols. I think that's right I could be wrong. Even with a dynamite set of calipers that is hard to check with consistency. You may be right and most likely are but what I've read on crimp your normal crimp is suppose to be between .0005 - .001 less at the point of crimp on a taper crimp as in the case of the OP. |
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Crimp in OP was everyone's primary comments.
My exception was not that crimp was excessive because it was but it was for a reason. A reason that no one seemed to grasp as primary problem. Crimp was a secondary issue that was used to cure setback caused from primary issue of feedable, workable oal. Oal is what should have been the topic, not reduce crimp. Reducing crimp is\was ignoring setback. It's not a new topic or the first time a group of posters, well intentioned needed a redirect in focus on issues like setback, oal or crimp. These just so happen to be issues where experience has been hard won and a great deal of my studies have been. We get into concentricity issues with rifle brass or discussions of barrel length -vs- velocity and I'm the one on the receiving end of a "lecture." Both by experienced riflemen and a couple of times by "Super Sniper." Who's also known as my boy. I take it in stride. It's how I, WE learn. |
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unfortunately some people see the sore thumb and stop there....
This particular sub forum of the site is less prone to such things but still happens. People just saw the deformed bullet in that threads pics and only commented on that... I don't know that any of them were trying to say that was the cause of the problem just pointing at the first thing wrong they see. It's a natural human behavior evolved to be handy when running down those sick deformed wildebeests on the Serengeti |
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Quoted: unfortunately there are a large number of users that frequent this sight who will merely look at a picture not read anything and jump to reply with something completely unrelated... This particular sub forum of the sight is less prone to such things but still happens. People just saw the deformed bullet in that threads pics and only commented on that... I don't know that any of them were trying to say that was the cause of the problem just pointing at the first thing wrong they see. People have evolved to pick out any flaw or weakness it's handy when running down those sick deformed wildebeests on the Serengeti Kind of like you have done in your comments about this forum. How many years did you lurk before joining, to have come to this opinion? |
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ok sorry not my intent to bash this forum more of a commentary on human behavior especially in the context of an internet forum where there are really almost 0 social consequences.
I like this entire site a lot especially this particular forum board. everyone saw the sore thumb in that thread and not necessarily the hammer that caused it. I'll try to watch my wording a little more carefully I did no lurking i joined around when i first started visiting this site and know there are a lot of great people on here. |
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