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Posted: 1/16/2014 6:30:23 PM EDT
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Maybe I am just retarded.. but has anyone else noticed a bullpup craze going on in recent years? KSG, RFB, Tavor finally coming over to Murica.. I have noticed some snippets of bullpups at shot show.
While we are on the topic, who here has a bullpup variant rifle. What do you have, how do you like it? Pros, cons? |
| Under the Armory Section there is an entire sub forum for Bullpup Rfirearms |
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Maybe I am just retarded.. but has anyone else noticed a bullpup craze going on in recent years? KSG, RFB, Tavor finally coming over to Murica.. I have noticed some snippets of bullpups at shot show. While we are on the topic, who here has a bullpup variant rifle. What do you have, how do you like it? Pros, cons? Maybe the US is slowly realizing the AR isn't the end all, be all, of firearms? 
What's not to like? SBR length w/out the tax stamp. I have an AUG A3. Wonderful firearm. Last competition I certainly had good times on mag changes vs ARs (this is a typical 'complaint' about bull pups) The only real downsides coming to mind are aftermarket support (limited vs AR), price (higher than a typical AR, but in line with or lower than e.g. LWRC, LMT, ...), and weak hand shooting. You don't need a huge aftermarket - you can bolt typical stuff onto the pic rails, but replacement triggers don't really exist (for the AUG or FS2k, there are a few coming for Tavor), while bull pup triggers generally are OK, but not match-grade. I haven't had any issues with mine, but that doesn't mean it can't be 'better.' Weak side shooting...well, you're going to eat a bit of brass, or learn a new manual of arms. I've eaten the brass, it's not the end of the world..slightly swollen lip after a few mags. Meanwhile, in and out of vehicles or turning around fully inside a hallway = zero problem. Very quick pointing, amazingly reliable and clean running (you don't 'have' to do a full cleaning after each shooting session)...wonderful firearm. |
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Beat me to it. Outside of a few shooting competitions where weak side shooting was mandated, I can't imagine ever actually doing it, especially under stress.
Room entry is about the only situation I could think of doing that, and even then it would be less about exposing myself and more about having to do so to fit a long gun through the doorway with the muzzle up and flowing the direction I wanted to clear, and I'd much rather have the shorter AUG. |
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I'm not a snake eating high speed operator so all the tactical reasons don't appeal to me. Bullpups pack easy and go anywhere. That's it.
A compact bullpup with me is far better than any rifle I had to leave home. Put aside the bullpup factor, just as a straight up rifle, the AUG is the best in it's class. It just happens to be a bullpup. |
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Beat me to it. Outside of a few shooting competitions where weak side shooting was mandated, I can't imagine ever actually doing it, especially under stress. Room entry is about the only situation I could think of doing that, and even then it would be less about exposing myself and more about having to do so to fit a long gun through the doorway with the muzzle up and flowing the direction I wanted to clear, and I'd much rather have the shorter AUG. Think about using a wall for cover and trying to shoot around it. If the wall is on your weapon side you are in great shape. If the wall is on your non shooting side think about how much of your body will be exposed trying to shoot around it..... |
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Beat me to it. Outside of a few shooting competitions where weak side shooting was mandated, I can't imagine ever actually doing it, especially under stress. Room entry is about the only situation I could think of doing that, and even then it would be less about exposing myself and more about having to do so to fit a long gun through the doorway with the muzzle up and flowing the direction I wanted to clear, and I'd much rather have the shorter AUG. Sure. I went a year w/out 'needing' to shoot it weak sided, just putting it out there. Some competitions may force specific positions, as will various carbine classes, slicing the pie, etc.. My A3 is my 'bump in the night's if needed, and my bedroom/hall layout means if I'm in a position that I feel I NEED to view/clear the hallway, it'll have to be weak handed. Just some examples, not suggesting clearing the house in the middle of the night is or isn't a good idea, and if need be, you can certainly shoot weak handed, or for that matter, even one handed.. Good addition mentioned above..barrel off in two seconds, fits in a laptop backpack quite nicely.. 
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I've been fascinated with the bullpup concept since the first time I saw the AUG. Unfortunately, none of them really "worked" for me, until the Tavor. The Tavor was is the first one to actually fit me, or give me what I want from a rifle. You have to find the one that suits you. I almost bought the FN without shooting it, first, but thankfully got to shoot one before making that leap of faith.
I have noticed that the market does seem to be swinging open in regards to bullpups. I think the NFA actually lends itself to the format. As mentioned, you get SBR overall length without the tax stamp. Maybe, now, market competition will finally get us past the myth that bad triggers are a necessary evil of the format. 
P.S. I have to agree with the above comments about weak side shooting being mostly unnecessary. I remember in Army boot camp, we were taught to alternate our rifles right, left, right, left down the column when moving in a single file patrol, or facing them to the outside when in two columns. Then I was later taught otherwise by someone with a Ranger tab. Even doing building clearing we never held weak side. That includes military and civilian LE experience. I guess just telling fresh recruits to stagger or point their rifles to the outside is faster than actually training them on muzzle awareness and good transitions from low ready. To me, the line of thought of shooting weak side around a corner goes along with the weaver stance for pistol shooting, or similarly shooting weak hand on the weak side of cover with a pistol. It's a trade off, compromising your most effective (and natural comfort under stress) shooting platform in exchange for minimizing your target profile to the opponent. Don't get me wrong, good cover has and will save lives, and I don't want someone to mistakenly believe that I minimize it's value. Also, having known people who lost use of their dominant hand, there is a value on training with the weak hand. However, the only way to win a gunfight is to stop the threat. The most effect way to stop a threat is by putting effective shots on target. I would prefer to focus on making the best use of cover that I can, while maintaining the best shooting position available. |
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Bullpups? I own most of the usual suspects but have only fired my msar(bought it used).
I fell in love with bullpups with Die Hard and just fairly recently became able to afford them. Actually it was a natural chain of events since I'm a big fan of short barreled pistols and rifles(scout and socom m14s)! |
| I think people are realizing that most of the disadvantages that people see with bullpups are not inherent in the bullpup configuration but instead were the result of a lack of modern innovation. Things like bad triggers, ergonomics, weight, weak side shooting, are now being solved by more modern designs and aftermarket support. |
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The only issue I have with my AUG at this point is weight.
It's about a pound to pound and a half heavier than a comparably barreled AR, SCAR, etc.. Fact of life. Either you can live with it, or not. All the other issues people bring up with them can be mitigated to one degree or another. There are cheap, reliable 42 round magazines available, spare parts, extended rails, aftermarket trigger sears, charging handle options, replacement barrels, brass deflectors, NATO stocks, bayonet lugs, etc, etc. It's a great time to get into the AUG. Somebody figure out how to chop a pound off of it, and it will nigh on perfect. FWIW, it's the gun within closest reach when I go to sleep each night. |
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The only issue I have with my AUG at this point is weight. It's about a pound to pound and a half heavier than a comparably barreled AR, SCAR, etc.. Fact of life. Either you can live with it, or not. All the other issues people bring up with them can be mitigated to one degree or another. There are cheap, reliable 42 round magazines available, spare parts, extended rails, aftermarket trigger sears, charging handle options, replacement barrels, brass deflectors, NATO stocks, bayonet lugs, etc, etc. It's a great time to get into the AUG. Somebody figure out how to chop a pound off of it, and it will nigh on perfect. FWIW, it's the gun within closest reach when I go to sleep each night. The good thing is that weight is closer to your body, supported by your chest. With conventional rifles most of the weight is held solely by your arms. Just sayin'... |
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Quoted:
Maybe I am just retarded.. but has anyone else noticed a bullpup craze going on in recent years? KSG, RFB, Tavor finally coming over to Murica.. I have noticed some snippets of bullpups at shot show. While we are on the topic, who here has a bullpup variant rifle. What do you have, how do you like it? Pros, cons? So, what is your favorite bullpup rifle? |
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The only issue I have with my AUG at this point is weight. It's about a pound to pound and a half heavier than a comparably barreled AR, SCAR, etc.. Fact of life. Either you can live with it, or not. All the other issues people bring up with them can be mitigated to one degree or another. There are cheap, reliable 42 round magazines available, spare parts, extended rails, aftermarket trigger sears, charging handle options, replacement barrels, brass deflectors, NATO stocks, bayonet lugs, etc, etc. It's a great time to get into the AUG. Somebody figure out how to chop a pound off of it, and it will nigh on perfect. FWIW, it's the gun within closest reach when I go to sleep each night. I don't like extra weight but if it comes with a increase in durability I can justify it. Perspective is important. My WWII vet grandfathers would laugh at what we complain about today. |
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I don't like extra weight but if it comes with a increase in durability I can justify it. Perspective is important. My WWII vet grandfathers would laugh at what we complain about today. Quoted:
Quoted:
The only issue I have with my AUG at this point is weight. It's about a pound to pound and a half heavier than a comparably barreled AR, SCAR, etc.. Fact of life. Either you can live with it, or not. All the other issues people bring up with them can be mitigated to one degree or another. There are cheap, reliable 42 round magazines available, spare parts, extended rails, aftermarket trigger sears, charging handle options, replacement barrels, brass deflectors, NATO stocks, bayonet lugs, etc, etc. It's a great time to get into the AUG. Somebody figure out how to chop a pound off of it, and it will nigh on perfect. FWIW, it's the gun within closest reach when I go to sleep each night. I don't like extra weight but if it comes with a increase in durability I can justify it. Perspective is important. My WWII vet grandfathers would laugh at what we complain about today. Somewhere is a review on the AUG from someone with some muscle, should, or arthritis type issues (don't recall which), to the point they couldn't shoulder and shoot more than a dozen or so rounds with an AR without a break. By comparison, the same person was able to keep the AUG shouldered for quite a significantly increased time/shots, etc. Sorry, just don't have the link, but when shouldered, you're not feeling it. Hanging on a sling or over the shoulder, of course - weight is weight. |
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Somewhere is a review on the AUG from someone with some muscle, should, or arthritis type issues (don't recall which), to the point they couldn't shoulder and shoot more than a dozen or so rounds with an AR without a break. By comparison, the same person was able to keep the AUG shouldered for quite a significantly increased time/shots, etc. Sorry, just don't have the link, but when shouldered, you're not feeling it. Hanging on a sling or over the shoulder, of course - weight is weight. Quoted:
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The only issue I have with my AUG at this point is weight. It's about a pound to pound and a half heavier than a comparably barreled AR, SCAR, etc.. Fact of life. Either you can live with it, or not. All the other issues people bring up with them can be mitigated to one degree or another. There are cheap, reliable 42 round magazines available, spare parts, extended rails, aftermarket trigger sears, charging handle options, replacement barrels, brass deflectors, NATO stocks, bayonet lugs, etc, etc. It's a great time to get into the AUG. Somebody figure out how to chop a pound off of it, and it will nigh on perfect. FWIW, it's the gun within closest reach when I go to sleep each night. I don't like extra weight but if it comes with a increase in durability I can justify it. Perspective is important. My WWII vet grandfathers would laugh at what we complain about today. Somewhere is a review on the AUG from someone with some muscle, should, or arthritis type issues (don't recall which), to the point they couldn't shoulder and shoot more than a dozen or so rounds with an AR without a break. By comparison, the same person was able to keep the AUG shouldered for quite a significantly increased time/shots, etc. Sorry, just don't have the link, but when shouldered, you're not feeling it. Hanging on a sling or over the shoulder, of course - weight is weight. The AUG has the weight in the right area. Hold an AUG like a pistol. Try a lighter AR15. If you're a real stud an HK91. 
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Hadn't notice at all, even though I started Bullpup Shoot in 2010 and it keeps getting bigger every year.  I missed the inaugural 2010 shoot, but the 2011 shoot was a great event... I need to attend this years shoot. I know it's not a real bullpup rifle, it's just a Gen II conversion kit, but I like it
2011 Just shuck it! (JJ Hunter) 
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Just wanted to add another consideration for the trend. Up until recently, military rifles were all about their iron sights. The bullpup format, by necessity, provides a shorter sight radius. Having seen the struggles that a lot of soldiers had in the transition from M16A2 to M4, I can definitely see how the military would have looked at the platform unfavorably. Optics and reflex sights, however, are becoming more common, now. I don't know about the average GI equipment in the U.S. Army, today, since I've been out for just over a decade, but I think I read that the M4 PIP includes some kind of optic being included. Look at the original AUG, The Tavor, The FN F2000, and even the non-bulllpup HK G36. All came prepackaged with optics. More prolific use of dots and other reflex style sights, or even magnified optics has changed the dependancy on irons as the primary sighting method. This change in the military culture removes bullpups from being a niche weapon for vehicle crews or CQB into the possibility of becoming the mainstream battle rifle.
It isn't the civilian market that's driving this trend. They are being made with the hope of larger quantity contracts to at least LE departments, if not military. Civilian sales are enough of a bonus to have IWI bring a new factory into the States and make enough changes to the original to satisfy ATF, but big quantity sales are what drive the original product developments. |
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Love me some bullpups was at the bullpup shoot at 2011 and 2013.
Compared to the m16a4s, and m4s I was issued in the army they are very short and balance better. The other plus is they don't sacrifice barrel length hence muzzle velocity for the tiny package. Downside the triggers tend not to be as nice and they can have issues with ambidextrousness. |
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