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CAT suppressors Vol.2 (Page 15 of 22)
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Link Posted: 4/12/2024 12:15:27 AM EDT
[#1]
Originally Posted By KM6:

When did the definition of "sound suppression" become varied? Is there not a correlative relationship between sound level and hearing damage?
View Quote

It correlates but is not direct.
Link Posted: 4/12/2024 11:52:07 AM EDT
[#2]
The above is correct. It's correlated to sound level; however, sound level itself (peak) doesn't factor in duration.
Link Posted: 4/12/2024 1:22:52 PM EDT
[#3]
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Originally Posted By KM6:

When did the definition of "sound suppression" become varied? Is there not a correlative relationship between sound level and hearing damage?
View Quote


Assuming Jay's ratings are sound, it would seem it is not a simple 1:1. Jay regularly gives better ratings (hearing damage) to louder (db/sound level) cans.

Again assuming Jay's ratings are sound, it also apparently isn't as simple as sound level * duration (impulse). If you look at the Silencer Summit data, the Flow556K has one of the largest shooter's ear impulse values yet it enjoys one of the best Pew ear ratings on the MK18.

I imagine other factors like frequency must play into Pew's ratings, or maybe intensity and duration are weighted differently from the simple impulse calculation.

But this is why I always point out to newbies that are amped on Pew that a better rating (supposedly less hearing damage) does not necessarily mean it will sound quieter.
Link Posted: 4/12/2024 2:23:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: wavebywave] [#4]
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Originally Posted By peachy:


Assuming Jay's ratings are sound, it would seem it is not a simple 1:1. Jay regularly gives better ratings (hearing damage) to louder (db/sound level) cans.

Again assuming Jay's ratings are sound, it also apparently isn't as simple as sound level * duration (impulse). If you look at the Silencer Summit data, the Flow556K has one of the largest shooter's ear impulse values yet it enjoys one of the best Pew ear ratings on the MK18.

I imagine other factors like frequency must play into Pew's ratings, or maybe intensity and duration are weighted differently from the simple impulse calculation.

But this is why I always point out to newbies that are amped on Pew that a better rating (supposedly less hearing damage) does not necessarily mean it will sound quieter.
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Originally Posted By peachy:
Originally Posted By KM6:

When did the definition of "sound suppression" become varied? Is there not a correlative relationship between sound level and hearing damage?


Assuming Jay's ratings are sound, it would seem it is not a simple 1:1. Jay regularly gives better ratings (hearing damage) to louder (db/sound level) cans.

Again assuming Jay's ratings are sound, it also apparently isn't as simple as sound level * duration (impulse). If you look at the Silencer Summit data, the Flow556K has one of the largest shooter's ear impulse values yet it enjoys one of the best Pew ear ratings on the MK18.

I imagine other factors like frequency must play into Pew's ratings, or maybe intensity and duration are weighted differently from the simple impulse calculation.

But this is why I always point out to newbies that are amped on Pew that a better rating (supposedly less hearing damage) does not necessarily mean it will sound quieter.


People often don’t consider their environment when shooting and its affect on sound/hearing damage risk - reflecting surfaces for example.  
Link Posted: 4/12/2024 4:01:16 PM EDT
[#5]
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Originally Posted By peachy:


I think people don't realize they are sometimes speaking different languages. Some of it comes down to what "sound suppression" means to a person. If you want to pick the quietest sounding suppressor, Jay's ratings are not very helpful and may actually lead you astray. If you are trying to pick the suppressor that will do the least damage to your ears, Jay's numbers may be helpful, depending on your use case.
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Im going to disagree here.

Damage to hearing is not subjective. Neither is hearing loss. We have tests in the medical field designed exactly for that. I know this because when I blew out an ear drum from an airbag impact in a car crash, its the exact tests I had to go through.

Suppression at the ear and muzzle are not subjective either. They are measurable metrics. We know what DB level is safe and not safe.

His overall rating, takes into account things that are outside of just the ear/muzzle DB measurement.

You can pick both the quietest and the safest from the above.

His point about damaging your ears, even if you can't hear it happen is exactly whats misunderstood here. You may think you're picking the quietest, if you subjectively choose the one that "sounds" better, but in actuality, its not true. Thats where things are subjective. Its exactly why the "pepsi challenge" KB wanted is incredibly pointless to the overall discussion of "what's quietest".
Link Posted: 4/12/2024 4:05:09 PM EDT
[#6]
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Originally Posted By wavebywave:


People often don’t consider their environment when shooting and its affect on sound/hearing damage risk - reflecting surfaces for example.  
View Quote


Agreed, its exactly why the silencer sound summit had different results, and the most controversial point of it. Their "test barn". There are mil-specs to testing suppressors, and reflective surfaces are a factor in those specs. One that was more or less ignored in their pursuit of "not being like Jay" and the rationale was "You can remove that data yourself if you'd like".

Most average consumers wont, nor would they even know to think of that variance in the testing.

Link Posted: 4/12/2024 4:30:59 PM EDT
[#7]
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Originally Posted By AleksanderSuave:


Im going to disagree here.

Damage to hearing is not subjective. Neither is hearing loss. We have tests in the medical field designed exactly for that. I know this because when I blew out an ear drum from an airbag impact in a car crash, its the exact tests I had to go through.

Suppression at the ear and muzzle are not subjective either. They are measurable metrics. We know what DB level is safe and not safe.

His overall rating, takes into account things that are outside of just the ear/muzzle DB measurement.

You can pick both the quietest and the safest from the above.

His point about damaging your ears, even if you can't hear it happen is exactly whats misunderstood here. You may think you're picking the quietest, if you subjectively choose the one that "sounds" better, but in actuality, its not true. Thats where things are subjective. Its exactly why the "pepsi challenge" KB wanted is incredibly pointless to the overall discussion of "what's quietest".
View Quote


I think you misunderstood or missed the point, which is that a better Pew rating does not necessarily mean the suppressor is quieter in terms of db. In fact many of the purportedly safer suppressors in various categories have a reputation for being relatively loud.
Link Posted: 4/13/2024 1:51:51 AM EDT
[#8]
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Originally Posted By peachy:


I think you misunderstood or missed the point, which is that a better Pew rating does not necessarily mean the suppressor is quieter in terms of db. In fact many of the purportedly safer suppressors in various categories have a reputation for being relatively loud.
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Originally Posted By peachy:
Originally Posted By AleksanderSuave:


Im going to disagree here.

Damage to hearing is not subjective. Neither is hearing loss. We have tests in the medical field designed exactly for that. I know this because when I blew out an ear drum from an airbag impact in a car crash, its the exact tests I had to go through.

Suppression at the ear and muzzle are not subjective either. They are measurable metrics. We know what DB level is safe and not safe.

His overall rating, takes into account things that are outside of just the ear/muzzle DB measurement.

You can pick both the quietest and the safest from the above.

His point about damaging your ears, even if you can't hear it happen is exactly whats misunderstood here. You may think you're picking the quietest, if you subjectively choose the one that "sounds" better, but in actuality, its not true. Thats where things are subjective. Its exactly why the "pepsi challenge" KB wanted is incredibly pointless to the overall discussion of "what's quietest".


I think you misunderstood or missed the point, which is that a better Pew rating does not necessarily mean the suppressor is quieter in terms of db. In fact many of the purportedly safer suppressors in various categories have a reputation for being relatively loud.

Your statement above - are you defining quieter and loud simply by peak db values regardless of duration/environment? Can you give me a few examples? Hux flow 556 comes to mind; however, I believe people weren't factoring in the increase in sound, due to its higher flow rate, bouncing back from reflecting surfaces (not shooting in the free field).
Link Posted: 4/13/2024 7:32:31 AM EDT
[#9]
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Originally Posted By wavebywave:

Your statement above - are you defining quieter and loud simply by peak db values regardless of duration/environment? Can you give me a few examples? Hux flow 556 comes to mind; however, I believe people weren't factoring in the increase in sound, due to its higher flow rate, bouncing back from reflecting surfaces (not shooting in the free field).
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Off the top of my head, I noted Jay just gave the CAT Mob a higher muzzle rating than the Phoenix though his data shows the Phoenix is quieter in terms of db. I believe the same thing happened with the Nomad and Flow762. I’m not sure how many cans were tested by both Jay and the Silencer Summit, but the Flow556k stands as the best example that I’m aware of where the Flow556k has the best ear rating on the MK18 but did not do comparatively well in terms of ear measurements at the Summit. And there, they demonstrated that they can separately identify and measure reflective sound signatures.
Link Posted: 4/13/2024 7:54:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1168RGR] [#10]
Originally Posted By DDS87:

He analyzes/assess risk involved with contained explosions...which is "barely" what is involved with a suppressed firearm.
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Barely, indeed, unless your only concern is preventing cumulative closed head injuries and limbs being removed by gunshot blast. In which case, a Turbo K or even Canooter Valve will solve all your concerns. Now, if you told me he’s been working for Yamaha designing mufflers, then I’d consider him exceptionally qualified, not simply qualified.
Originally Posted By pool_shark:
IMO this DB chasing has gotten out of hand on all levels. If a can sounds good to you and doesnt make you look like a chimney sweeper, is that not good enough?

Have a CAT WB-TI, great can low backpressure, sounds great. Replaced a Saker K
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I completely agree that the DB obsession is way out of hand with supersonic cartridges. Also, congrats on your new can, and this is the sort of feedback I like to hear here.

I’m not Peachy, and can’t speak for him, but in my tiny mind, “loud” means that when I shoot a gun, or someone else shoots a gun, and it is perceived as louder than comparable options. This whole “free field” craze has gotten way out of hand. It’s a great idea for reducing variables, and a manufacturer would probably find it very useful in their product development or comparative testing. It is also a great way to make a can look good on paper when pretending muzzle performance doesn’t matter. But as users, no one shoots in a free field. The ground, the berm, trees, vehicles, targets, whatever.

Here’s why I’m skeptical of Pew’s relevance in deciding if I should buy a CAT at this point:
Originally Posted By Pew Science Email Marketing:The CAT/JL/A1 (CAT JL) is a lightweight and extremely advanced 30 caliber rifle silencer that exhibits significant sound signature suppression performance. For its size and weight envelope, the JL’s performance is even more extreme. Notably, the CAT SNIPER2 technology in the JL silencer appears to balance a high early time flow rate with continuous and consistent stagnation relief throughout the silencer, resulting in not only high performance first round shot suppression, but also some of the most consistent performance evaluated on this host weapon system by PEW Science, to date.

In this review, the CAT JL performance metrics depend upon suppressing a supersonic centerfire rifle cartridge; no easy task. How would the silencer perform on your .308 deer rifle?

The CAT/MOB/A1 (CAT MOB) is a lightweight and highly advanced 36 caliber submachine gun silencer that exhibits extreme sound signature suppression performance. For its size and weight envelope, the MOB’s performance is even more significant. Notably, the CAT DiVerge technology in the MOB silencer appears to regulate the varied low pressure conditions throughout each stage of the silencer, reducing backpressure while simultaneously achieving maximum signature suppression. The CAT MOB exhibits the most advanced submachine gun suppression performance evaluated by the PEW Science laboratory, to date.

In this review, the CAT MOB performance metrics depend upon suppressing a subsonic centerfire pistol cartridge on a roller-delayed blowback submachine gun. How would the CAT MOB perform on your 9mm pistol caliber carbine (PCC)?
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That’s a straight up Sham-Wow/Slap Chop/Oxy Clean  infomercial.
Link Posted: 4/13/2024 8:05:33 AM EDT
[#11]
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Originally Posted By AleksanderSuave:


Agreed, its exactly why the silencer sound summit had different results, and the most controversial point of it. Their "test barn". There are mil-specs to testing suppressors, and reflective surfaces are a factor in those specs. One that was more or less ignored in their pursuit of "not being like Jay" and the rationale was "You can remove that data yourself if you'd like".

Most average consumers wont, nor would they even know to think of that variance in the testing.

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It’s not anyone else’s fault if you can’t perform the math to determine the relevance of a reflective surface. You guys go on and on about waveforms…are you able to actually interpret them…like, are you aware that one axis is time, and the speed of sound is practically (or actually) known? Surely you are.

But if the Pied Piper of silencer review writing just tosses out the third shot, that’s totally scientific enough and certainly absent of bias? Sounds like a butterfly shot to me.
Link Posted: 4/13/2024 11:40:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Green0] [#12]
Link Posted: 4/14/2024 6:15:47 PM EDT
[#13]
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Originally Posted By 1168RGR:
Barely, indeed, unless your only concern is preventing cumulative closed head injuries and limbs being removed by gunshot blast. In which case, a Turbo K or even Canooter Valve will solve all your concerns. Now, if you told me he’s been working for Yamaha designing mufflers, then I’d consider him exceptionally qualified, not simply qualified.
I completely agree that the DB obsession is way out of hand with supersonic cartridges. Also, congrats on your new can, and this is the sort of feedback I like to hear here.

I’m not Peachy, and can’t speak for him, but in my tiny mind, “loud” means that when I shoot a gun, or someone else shoots a gun, and it is perceived as louder than comparable options. This whole “free field” craze has gotten way out of hand. It’s a great idea for reducing variables, and a manufacturer would probably find it very useful in their product development or comparative testing. It is also a great way to make a can look good on paper when pretending muzzle performance doesn’t matter. But as users, no one shoots in a free field. The ground, the berm, trees, vehicles, targets, whatever.

Here’s why I’m skeptical of Pew’s relevance in deciding if I should buy a CAT at this point:

That’s a straight up Sham-Wow/Slap Chop/Oxy Clean  infomercial.
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Maybe I'm missing something obvious about your concern with the JL and MOB summaries from PS being infomercial like; however, has he published any other 9mm sub gun or 308 bolt gun can data that makes you believe his statements aren't true?
Link Posted: 4/14/2024 6:59:14 PM EDT
[#14]
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Originally Posted By Green0:
Even if you don’t isolate out the reflective surfaces and use anechoic foam to reduce echo as much as possible (which is a best practice), you have a relevant test indoors from the basis of comparison of one can to another in the same position on the same equipment.

Out in the world where people shoot silencers they will sometimes be in a forrest full of reflective trees, or in the hallway of a building being cleared or in a parking lot of parked cars, or even inside the car doing training for vehicular ambushes, or in a hunting blind.

Looking around we see all the european companies making cans are testing them indoors.  We know AAC historically tested indoors and silencer co, and AB, and others.

This is because a silencer can be developed and improved indoors.

The outdoor test on the open field will be the most favorable to dosing for all suppressors, and for a suppressor that is projecting a loud sound forward, because less sound will reflect back.  

So there are ways for the open field to softball some of the cans and show less of the big environmental picture.

The ability for reflection to occur even on a minor level, in some minor ways is a more comprehensive (tougher) test and answers some of the criticisms of testing which explode into scientific nerds suggesting there should be an array of 8 or ten microphones getting far and near field measurements.

The problem with these arguments is that if we make testing require an hour drive and half a day settup, we reduce the amount of development happening by reducing the frequency of testing.  These recommendations have zero regard for the need for testing to be efficient in order for development to happen in a relevant period of time.
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Great post.   I have noticed a huge effect in variances of the environment on how a suppressor sounds.   Not just physical effects of the environment from structures and geology but from temperature (which also affects ammo pressure) and other effects of weather.  

Also for what I consider the industry standard event, the silencer summit, logistically, the barn was a great choice from being to secure site to being independent of the future weather when bringing so many people from all over together.   I really think it's awesome that the industry at their expense provided a scientific standard independent of subjective opinions and I am grateful for it.    

Pew Science has no credibility to me other than being one person's opinion from presenting data that wasn't discarded.  I used to read Guns and Ammo on the shitter too, so it's nothing new to me and a fun read.      
Link Posted: 4/14/2024 7:59:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Green0] [#15]
Link Posted: 4/15/2024 9:56:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: peachy] [#16]
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Originally Posted By Green0:
Thanks, its cool when people understand the concepts, as they are moderately complicated.

The environmental geometry causing reflection will reduce reported dosing limits (sound reflection at lower amplitude than peak will represent more DB per unit of time average leq/leaq) but most indoor settups render reflection incapable of effecting peak because reflections where applicable come back lower than the original peak amplitude. Pressure decays rapidly over short distance and through impact/reflection.

So the indoor test will have lower AHAAH weekly permissible exposure than the open field which is relatively absent reflections other than the ground itself.  This of course means the indoor test result is more conservative and less optimistic than the outdoor test for the average shooting scenario where open fields are less common.

The dosing effect will essentially be fairly applied to all cans in that same environment. So it could be considered a more conservative bias to the test results.
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I think there are some platforms/calibers/uses where dosing makes sense and is relevant, but there are entire classes where it fails to really differentiate. For example, if you look at Pew's data for the Mk18 and M4a1, only a single suppressor rises above the threshold (30+ rating) at the ear to offer "minimal suppression" that allows for "a magazine or two" of dosing. The rest are in the "loudest possible" section that allows for only "limited hunting engagement" section (below 30).

This basically means that for practically any range work, you should have hearing protection on whether you have the best 5.56 suppressor or the worst. Once you have hearing protection on, the rating isn't really relevant because the software doesn't model that condition to my knowledge. Various forms of hearing protection abate different frequencies to different degrees.

For my uses, that basically renders the entire body of 5.56 Pew ratings relatively meaningless. The ratings might be more helpful for other platforms, but I have never seen a quantitative explanation of what "limited practice," "full range day," "high volume fire," or "extremely high volume fire" mean, so I'm not really sure where my uses fall.

I like that the AHAAH software at least provides a recommended number, even though most of the ratings I have seen meant I'd have to wear hearing protection anyway.
Link Posted: 4/15/2024 11:36:14 AM EDT
[#17]
One thing that always strikes me when following along with these arguments. It's always about the physics of the burning powder and how a suppressor handled them coming out the muzzle.

Which is great, but if your argument is that hearing damage is a better metric than physics and dB, why are we focused on just the physics.

It makes sense for the manufacturers for R&D and comparison between cans.

For someone like Pew, the argument/rating is that this can is safer than that can, but he's solely focused on the physics, no input or expertise from ENT and audiologist, nothing on the medical side to show how the sound physics interact with the ear, nothing on conductive physics or how a can may affect conductive hearing damage. It seems to me that Pew makes declarations from only a small fraction of the output and very little of the inputs for hearing damage.
Link Posted: 4/15/2024 2:21:21 PM EDT
[#18]
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Originally Posted By peachy:


I think there are some platforms/calibers/uses where dosing makes sense and is relevant, but there are entire classes where it fails to really differentiate. For example, if you look at Pew's data for the Mk18 and M4a1, only a single suppressor rises above the threshold (30+ rating) at the ear to offer "minimal suppression" that allows for "a magazine or two" of dosing. The rest are in the "loudest possible" section that allows for only "limited hunting engagement" section (below 30).

This basically means that for practically any range work, you should have hearing protection on whether you have the best 5.56 suppressor or the worst. Once you have hearing protection on, the rating isn't really relevant because the software doesn't model that condition to my knowledge. Various forms of hearing protection abate different frequencies to different degrees.

For my uses, that basically renders the entire body of 5.56 Pew ratings relatively meaningless. The ratings might be more helpful for other platforms, but I have never seen a quantitative explanation of what "limited practice," "full range day," "high volume fire," or "extremely high volume fire" mean, so I'm not really sure where my uses fall.

I like that the AHAAH software at least provides a recommended number, even though most of the ratings I have seen meant I'd have to wear hearing protection anyway.
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Great post.
Link Posted: 4/15/2024 9:47:39 PM EDT
[#19]
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Originally Posted By peachy:


I think there are some platforms/calibers/uses where dosing makes sense and is relevant, but there are entire classes where it fails to really differentiate. For example, if you look at Pew's data for the Mk18 and M4a1, only a single suppressor rises above the threshold (30+ rating) at the ear to offer "minimal suppression" that allows for "a magazine or two" of dosing. The rest are in the "loudest possible" section that allows for only "limited hunting engagement" section (below 30).

This basically means that for practically any range work, you should have hearing protection on whether you have the best 5.56 suppressor or the worst. Once you have hearing protection on, the rating isn't really relevant because the software doesn't model that condition to my knowledge. Various forms of hearing protection abate different frequencies to different degrees.

For my uses, that basically renders the entire body of 5.56 Pew ratings relatively meaningless. The ratings might be more helpful for other platforms, but I have never seen a quantitative explanation of what "limited practice," "full range day," "high volume fire," or "extremely high volume fire" mean, so I'm not really sure where my uses fall.

I like that the AHAAH software at least provides a recommended number, even though most of the ratings I have seen meant I'd have to wear hearing protection anyway.
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I can definitely still tell the difference between a good and bad suppressor with ear pro on so it's nice to still have a good rating.

Even though when I practice I use plugs under muffs + the silencer. Hearing loss sucks and with muffs won't protect you as much as you want.
Link Posted: 4/15/2024 10:05:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Green0] [#20]
Link Posted: 4/15/2024 11:45:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 135Patriots] [#21]
Someone sanity check me: there are only two versions of the WB HUB - WB Ti and WB Inconcel.

Do I have that right? Seriously interested in one of these cans on performance merits but I don't like how much I'm having to hold my nose at their marketing and general attitude...
Link Posted: 4/15/2024 11:46:53 PM EDT
[#22]
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Originally Posted By 135Patriots:
Someone sanity check me: there are only two versions of the WB HUB - WB Ti and WB Inconcel.

Do I have that right? Seriously interested in one of these cans on performance merits but I don't like how much I'm having to hold my nose at their marketing and general attitude...
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Ti and Inconel are the only materials they’re using that I know of.
Link Posted: 4/16/2024 3:25:45 AM EDT
[#23]
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Originally Posted By eagarminuteman:

Ti and Inconel are the only materials they’re using that I know of.
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This is accurate right now, however a couple weeks ago they were talking about some new material they want to use but were overall pretty tight lipped about it. I wouldn't hold my breath about it though.
Link Posted: 4/16/2024 3:56:43 AM EDT
[#24]
Novekse making a CAT mount flash hider.

Noveske also a fan of weird / silly product names...

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2024/04/15/noveske-pig-pen-flash-hider/
Link Posted: 4/16/2024 7:04:08 AM EDT
[#25]
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Originally Posted By AleksanderSuave:


Agreed, its exactly why the silencer sound summit had different results, and the most controversial point of it. Their "test barn". There are mil-specs to testing suppressors, and reflective surfaces are a factor in those specs. One that was more or less ignored in their pursuit of "not being like Jay" and the rationale was "You can remove that data yourself if you'd like".

Most average consumers wont, nor would they even know to think of that variance in the testing.

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Originally Posted By AleksanderSuave:
Originally Posted By wavebywave:


People often don’t consider their environment when shooting and its affect on sound/hearing damage risk - reflecting surfaces for example.  


Agreed, its exactly why the silencer sound summit had different results, and the most controversial point of it. Their "test barn". There are mil-specs to testing suppressors, and reflective surfaces are a factor in those specs. One that was more or less ignored in their pursuit of "not being like Jay" and the rationale was "You can remove that data yourself if you'd like".

Most average consumers wont, nor would they even know to think of that variance in the testing.


@AleksanderSuave Not arguing but curious.  It seems like you have knowledge in the area of hearing damage/safe limits etc...

Can you give an example of how a suppressor that's louder may cause less damage than one that is quieter.  Is it duration, frequency, tone.  What factors do you feel would add up to a PEW rating where a louder can is safer.

Please @ me.
Link Posted: 4/16/2024 8:39:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: peachy] [#26]
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Originally Posted By Green0:



I've seen ratings with like 12 rounds or 15 rounds a week, and those are reaching a level where the can is safe to use without ear protection on something like a SWAT callout or for a lot of military missions, or some hunting use, and those are indoor testing numbers which would be a little higher if tested outdoor because AHAAH is dosing based off all the noise including all the reflected noise which will be reduced outdoor. We are making a bolt carrier presently that doubles the dosing of 5.56mm suppressors in indoor testing.  

I get your point of it won't be a good idea to fire 300 rounds with a can without ear pro, but it also wouldn't be a good idea by the same metric to fire the rifles with ear pro without a can where 40 rounds a week is an M16A2 outdoors with a pair of peltor com-tac ear protectors according to AHAAH dosing which is really harsh standard for sounds around or below 140DB A, and I would argue a much softer standard for sounds over ~153DB A.  Most laypeople would think it was safe to shoot 300 rounds with that combination, but it's not, so ear protection itself can provide a false sense of security, and a feeling of a wholistic solution to the problem.  

Looking at the test numbers, it's important not to get confused and think there is no protection being provided by the suppressor.  But I get your argument boils to what difference is it if 4 rounds a week or 14 rounds a week are safe.  Which somewhat captures the difference between not so great and great 5.56mm cans.   I think in that argument it's important to remember that AHAAH will sometimes say firing an unsuppressed .308 indoor is safe for 3 rounds a week, and then you have to remember Army brass probably leaned on that scale to provide the Army some liability protection for all the guns Uncle Sam doesn't give a damn about buying a can for, regardless of how many people are going to go deaf because of it.  I guess what I mean there is there is more distance between those two cans than AHAAH implies.
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I think dosing makes sense for agencies/military where users are likely to be exposed to unprotected or under-protected gunfire.

Does the AHAAH software allow you to model different hearing protection options for dosing recommendations (i.e. Suppressor X + Ear Pro Y = Z rounds per week)?

I’m less familiar with AHAAH, but to my knowledge, Pew does not address ear pro. One of the points I was addressing above is whether dosing ratings for the unprotected condition are still a reliable indicator  for the protected condition (I.e. with one or more layers of ear pro on). In other words, if one Suppressor A has a higher dosage rating than Suppressor B for unprotected usage, does it necessarily hold true that Suppressor A is more hearing safe than Suppressor B when ear protection is worn?

I don’t know the answer, but since ear pro is basically a filter that abates different frequencies to different degrees, I’m not sure it is a safe assumption to make. For example, I’ve understood some of Jay’s comments to suggest that lower frequency sound emissions might be less harmful to the naked ear. But ear pro is often less effective against low frequency sounds than higher frequency sounds. So would you still be better off with a suppressor with a deeper tone if your ear pro is less effective against said deeper tone?

Does the software that Griffin uses output a frequency profile? I’d be interested to know the rough range of frequencies demonstrated by various suppressors + cartridge combinations.
Link Posted: 4/16/2024 10:26:43 AM EDT
[#27]
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Originally Posted By bmarshall1:

@AleksanderSuave Not arguing but curious.  It seems like you have knowledge in the area of hearing damage/safe limits etc...

Can you give an example of how a suppressor that's louder may cause less damage than one that is quieter.  Is it duration, frequency, tone.  What factors do you feel would add up to a PEW rating where a louder can is safer.

Please @ me.
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Jay has a member's article explaining how the Flow556K can have the peak dB numbers it does with the suppression rating it does. He's also publicly named factors that can produce results like that. He listed duration, frequency, and phase. I believe it was frequency that had such a strong impact on the results of that particular can. It's not based on feelings. He does acknowledge and warn the audience that this is all in the context of the free field, away from reflections aside from the ground.

(Or, he just fabricates a bunch of graphs and picks numbers based on his bribes, all out in the open for several years while also maintaining a professional license and management position in a related field, as many want to be the case.)
Link Posted: 4/16/2024 11:41:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: ian187] [#28]
An interesting discussion about weight.

https://www.reddit.com/r/NFA/s/d4ZYg8Befy
Link Posted: 4/16/2024 12:23:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: DDS87] [#29]
An interesting comparison of the CAT WB and ODB to several other suppressors through hundreds/thousands of rounds each: Figured I would share my musings on my suppressors. Feel free to weigh in with your opinions

Suppressors compared:

CGS Hyperion
DA Primal
DA Nomad
YHM R2
DDC Enticer
HUX Flow762

CAT ODB: ~200rds. Just recently out of jail. I think this can represents the absolute epitome of a well rounded do all can and what I recommend to someone if they could only buy 1 can and they got some disposable income. Fantastic suppression with an awesome deep tone. Minimal back pressure and effect on the action. The above .308 AR10 runs on setting 7 with this can.
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YHM Turbo
YHM Turbo K
HUX Flow556K
DA Sierra 5
OCL Polo K

CAT WB: 640rds. An absolute beast. The alpha and omega in regards to 556 rifle suppressors in my opinion. Lives on a 12.5 Specwar. Great flash suppression under nods. Awesome tone and suppression. Minimal effect on the action with back pressure. Ejects 30 minutes forward of unsuppressed. As stated above im a lefty and typically shoot left eject uppers, but wanted a Speccy and they dont make a left eject. With an a5h2, green sprinco and eBCG/bolt minimal to no gas to the face. The most enjoyable 556 suppressor I own with all things considered.
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Link Posted: 4/16/2024 1:31:16 PM EDT
[#30]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DDS87:
An interesting comparison of the CAT WB and ODB to several other suppressors through hundreds/thousands of rounds each: Figured I would share my musings on my suppressors. Feel free to weigh in with your opinions

Suppressors compared:

CGS Hyperion
DA Primal
DA Nomad
YHM R2
DDC Enticer
HUX Flow762



YHM Turbo
YHM Turbo K
HUX Flow556K
DA Sierra 5
OCL Polo K

View Quote

I can’t trust that man’s opinion after what he said about shooting 22lr.
Link Posted: 4/16/2024 5:26:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: UMP45_Enthusiast] [#31]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DDS87:

(Or, he just fabricates a bunch of graphs and picks numbers based on his bribes, all out in the open for several years while also maintaining a professional license and management position in a related field, as many want to be the case.)
View Quote


You say this like it doesn't unironically happen in reality all the time with actors, politicians, companies, ect.

Once most people choose a team to root for they will never be dislodged from it regardless of circumstances or facts. I highly doubt Jay fabricates anything (or at least not often), but if he did his fan base is so fanatical they would gobble it up without question because the only person good enough to validate Jay's data is Jay himself. Hell the majority of people on Reddit hold a belief now a days that if a company isn't willing to throw money at Jay for testing than their suppressor is obviously bad and not worth buying, got to pay the king his tax to be relevant. For a bunch of supposed Gadsden enthusiasts they sure are quick to find a boot to live under.
Link Posted: 4/17/2024 3:22:45 PM EDT
[#32]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By bmarshall1:

@AleksanderSuave Not arguing but curious.  It seems like you have knowledge in the area of hearing damage/safe limits etc...

Can you give an example of how a suppressor that's louder may cause less damage than one that is quieter.  Is it duration, frequency, tone.  What factors do you feel would add up to a PEW rating where a louder can is safer.

Please @ me.
View Quote


Im pretty inexperienced to using the other features of this forum, so Im not entirely sure how to @you correctly. I apologize if I gave you the impression that my knowledge is specific to that area. I work in data analysis, however, it is entirely unrelated to this specific field. I like to think that my line of work helps me be a more informed consumer overall, but thats obviously subjective.

My only knowledge and interest in this subject came from my own prior experience with hearing loss, which was unrelated and the result of a car accident.

Jay's articles however answers this in more depth than I could provide or explain, read in this order:
https://pewscience.com/silencer-sound-standard-hearing-effects  
https://pewscience.com/silencer-sound-standard-test-method




Link Posted: 4/17/2024 3:27:40 PM EDT
[#33]
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Originally Posted By 00sdime00:

I can’t trust that man’s opinion after what he said about shooting 22lr.
View Quote


I get what you mean. Before I got hooked on shooting 22, I likely would have shared that same opinion.

Now taking my 22 out to 300 yards or more, I think I enjoy that more than any other shooting I do. Over the weekend I got to try an Anshutz 22 and shooting offhand, and that was a lot more fun at 100 than demonstrating how I was able to easily touch the steel at 385 with my new 6mm arc, seated with a bipod.
Link Posted: 4/18/2024 1:14:49 PM EDT
[#34]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By AleksanderSuave:


Im pretty inexperienced to using the other features of this forum, so Im not entirely sure how to @you correctly. I apologize if I gave you the impression that my knowledge is specific to that area. I work in data analysis, however, it is entirely unrelated to this specific field. I like to think that my line of work helps me be a more informed consumer overall, but thats obviously subjective.

My only knowledge and interest in this subject came from my own prior experience with hearing loss, which was unrelated and the result of a car accident.

Jay's articles however answers this in more depth than I could provide or explain, read in this order:
https://pewscience.com/silencer-sound-standard-hearing-effects  
https://pewscience.com/silencer-sound-standard-test-method




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Originally Posted By AleksanderSuave:
Originally Posted By bmarshall1:

@AleksanderSuave Not arguing but curious.  It seems like you have knowledge in the area of hearing damage/safe limits etc...

Can you give an example of how a suppressor that's louder may cause less damage than one that is quieter.  Is it duration, frequency, tone.  What factors do you feel would add up to a PEW rating where a louder can is safer.

Please @ me.


Im pretty inexperienced to using the other features of this forum, so Im not entirely sure how to @you correctly. I apologize if I gave you the impression that my knowledge is specific to that area. I work in data analysis, however, it is entirely unrelated to this specific field. I like to think that my line of work helps me be a more informed consumer overall, but thats obviously subjective.

My only knowledge and interest in this subject came from my own prior experience with hearing loss, which was unrelated and the result of a car accident.

Jay's articles however answers this in more depth than I could provide or explain, read in this order:
https://pewscience.com/silencer-sound-standard-hearing-effects  
https://pewscience.com/silencer-sound-standard-test-method





@AkeksanderSuave - that's how you @ someone, you have to have the capitol letters and all, then the @ person gets a notice and takes you here.

I read the link and came away almost as confused a before reading,

I understand DBs (I think), It's a measure of sound pressure, the higher the pressure 'wave' the louder the sound therefore  higher DB.  Then he started about impulse 'DB-ms', which I did not get.  As far as I understood, it's the time-length portion of the sound equation, to the left and right of the peak.  Some chart, I believe had rise-rate to reach the peak, it could be a slow rise, like an ocean swell, or a fast rise, like a breaking wave, they both have the same peak height, but one gets there slowly, and the pressure before and after the wave peak, takes a lot longer than a fast, breaking wave.  The longer 'swell' of a wave has the same peak but subjects the listener to more overall sound pressure.  That's my presumptions.


What I don't get in this thread is the discussion/argument regarding indoor vs. outdoor.  I get that the reflection/echo will be an overall factor, but there are too many variables to test for, so let's find a consistent and stable environment (TBAC's barn), and disregard the reflection.  In the Sound Summit papers, TBAC clearly shows when the echo hits, so lets analyze the shot and not the echo.  Makes sense or did I oversimplify? In other words, let's test the cans and not the environmental differences.
Link Posted: 4/18/2024 1:48:52 PM EDT
[#35]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By bmarshall1:What I don't get in this thread is the discussion/argument regarding indoor vs. outdoor.  I get that the reflection/echo will be an overall factor, but there are too many variables to test for, so let's find a consistent and stable environment (TBAC's barn), and disregard the reflection.  In the Sound Summit papers, TBAC clearly shows when the echo hits, so lets analyze the shot and not the echo.  Makes sense or did I oversimplify? In other words, let's test the cans and not the environmental differences.
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I think you got it, but the bolt velocity data is lost testing in a barn. Some people want to see that. The MIL-STD-1474E defines the free field for general weapon testing to eliminate variables.
Link Posted: 4/18/2024 7:38:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Green0] [#36]
Link Posted: 4/19/2024 6:16:40 AM EDT
[#37]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DDS87:

I think you got it, but the bolt velocity data is lost testing in a barn. Some people want to see that. The MIL-STD-1474E defines the free field for general weapon testing to eliminate variables.
View Quote
Bolt velocity data isn’t “lost” by TBAC testing inside a structure. That’s absurd.
Link Posted: 4/19/2024 7:08:04 AM EDT
[#38]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 1168RGR:
Bolt velocity data isn’t “lost” by TBAC testing inside a structure. That’s absurd.
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Originally Posted By 1168RGR:
Originally Posted By DDS87:

I think you got it, but the bolt velocity data is lost testing in a barn. Some people want to see that. The MIL-STD-1474E defines the free field for general weapon testing to eliminate variables.
Bolt velocity data isn’t “lost” by TBAC testing inside a structure. That’s absurd.

Is it 'lost', or just not measured.  Is it measured with hi-speed camera?  If so then it it 'should' be able to be done, I'm not certain how difficult it is to measure.

What all does bolt speed tell us; backpressure I presume, anything else?
Link Posted: 4/19/2024 8:21:54 AM EDT
[#39]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By bmarshall1:

Is it 'lost', or just not measured.  Is it measured with hi-speed camera?  If so then it it 'should' be able to be done, I'm not certain how difficult it is to measure.

What all does bolt speed tell us; backpressure I presume, anything else?
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Backpressure, yes. I don’t think they attempted to measure that.

High-speed camera is used, I think, but cyclic RoF is often used as a proxy measurement (Crane). I’d imagine that magnetic whatever could be used, also. End users with access to auto guns can test cyclic RoF with a shot timer, and even without one the differences are sometimes noticeable.
Link Posted: 4/19/2024 10:39:04 AM EDT
[#40]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 1168RGR:
Bolt velocity data isn’t “lost” by TBAC testing inside a structure. That’s absurd.
View Quote

The TBAC graphs end at 0.075 seconds because of the wall reflection. Looking at the high-back-pressure Polonium's graph on PEW, the bolt returns to battery at about that same time. What am I missing?
Link Posted: 4/19/2024 12:05:36 PM EDT
[#41]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DDS87:

The TBAC graphs end at 0.075 seconds because of the wall reflection. Looking at the high-back-pressure Polonium's graph on PEW, the bolt returns to battery at about that same time. What am I missing?
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Originally Posted By DDS87:
Originally Posted By 1168RGR:
Bolt velocity data isn’t “lost” by TBAC testing inside a structure. That’s absurd.

The TBAC graphs end at 0.075 seconds because of the wall reflection. Looking at the high-back-pressure Polonium's graph on PEW, the bolt returns to battery at about that same time. What am I missing?



Correct, and as you rightfully quoted the polo given its high back pressure and faster bolt speed, many of the lower back pressure cans on the mk18 have bolt closure data recorded past 0.08 seconds.
Link Posted: 4/19/2024 12:31:01 PM EDT
[#42]
I still think Rooftop Defense had the most interesting way to test backpressure by simply measuring how long it takes to empty a belt on a M249 with and without the suppressor. Most of these low back pressure cans seem to be within a percent of each other.
Link Posted: 4/19/2024 12:44:45 PM EDT
[#43]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DDS87:

The TBAC graphs end at 0.075 seconds because of the wall reflection. Looking at the high-back-pressure Polonium's graph on PEW, the bolt returns to battery at about that same time. What am I missing?
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Originally Posted By DDS87:
Originally Posted By 1168RGR:
Bolt velocity data isn’t “lost” by TBAC testing inside a structure. That’s absurd.

The TBAC graphs end at 0.075 seconds because of the wall reflection. Looking at the high-back-pressure Polonium's graph on PEW, the bolt returns to battery at about that same time. What am I missing?

Perhaps TBAC could share the data graphs and someone could plot the bolt closing time stamp and make a graph.

I don't know what TBACs screen name is, @Zack @Zach ?  It would be interesting to see, hopefully he has the data and can share.
Link Posted: 4/19/2024 12:50:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: UMP45_Enthusiast] [#44]
Honestly I would like to see this. Even with the barn reflection the bolt closing should be pretty easy to pick out in the noise on a graph.
Link Posted: 4/19/2024 2:54:10 PM EDT
[#45]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DDS87:

The TBAC graphs end at 0.075 seconds because of the wall reflection. Looking at the high-back-pressure Polonium's graph on PEW, the bolt returns to battery at about that same time. What am I missing?
View Quote
I misunderstood what you meant by “bolt velocity”. You’re looking for a proxy for bolt velocity (time to close or time to return to battery), not the actual bolt velocity.
Link Posted: 4/19/2024 3:26:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Green0] [#46]
Link Posted: 4/19/2024 6:35:22 PM EDT
[#47]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DDS87:

I think you got it, but the bolt velocity data is lost testing in a barn. Some people want to see that. The MIL-STD-1474E defines the free field for general weapon testing to eliminate variables.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DDS87:
Originally Posted By bmarshall1:What I don't get in this thread is the discussion/argument regarding indoor vs. outdoor.  I get that the reflection/echo will be an overall factor, but there are too many variables to test for, so let's find a consistent and stable environment (TBAC's barn), and disregard the reflection.  In the Sound Summit papers, TBAC clearly shows when the echo hits, so lets analyze the shot and not the echo.  Makes sense or did I oversimplify? In other words, let's test the cans and not the environmental differences.

I think you got it, but the bolt velocity data is lost testing in a barn. Some people want to see that. The MIL-STD-1474E defines the free field for general weapon testing to eliminate variables.

Sounds like SIG figured out a little something, makes perfect sense though if no mic's are in front of the gun.  "Design a test and I'll figure a way around it".

Question:  are silencers in the Military designed to protect the user's ears, or keep sound away from the enemy, (or both).  It would seem if the Military wanted to they could add a mic downrange then add that to the overall equation.  Any reason they don't?

@Green0
Link Posted: 4/19/2024 7:43:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Green0] [#48]
Link Posted: 4/20/2024 6:42:04 AM EDT
[#49]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Green0:


There is a NATO method that puts an 8? mic array around the firer, and it is probably the more comprehensive test, but it is also very cumbersome and I'm not aware of anyone in the US using it.  It's probably used by military testing people.  I think the greater emphasis is on user ears and reducing liability, and injury to personnel, but I can't speak for the military.  To hazard a guess, I think they prefer systems that effect no changes to the rated use specifications of the systems they are attached to.  I've never met anyone who worked for the military who could speak for the military on the subject of what their objectives are for sound suppressors, and I've met a good deal of the people. Those people also don't speak on their own behalf because having a personal opinion appears to be seen as unprofessional.

It seems in the government the only way to get into trouble is to do something, or say something, or have an opinion.  So nobody has an opinion.  They for the most part don't do anything interactive like that, and it keeps them all employed and out of trouble.  It often seems the common objective is primarily to stay employed. There are a bunch of "for the warfighter" catch phrases and stuff, and I just don't see having no opinions, and providing zero feedback as being helpful to, or advocating for the warfighter whatsoever, so I call horseshit on that. I've asked a lot of people on that side what they are looking for, and there have never been any answers to those questions.  

So I only know what matters as a person who was in the military and who was a sniper in the military and I think protecting the users ears is important, and concealing their location is also important.  I know the doctrinal sniper community answer is that the silencer would be used to further conceal the position of the sniper, reduce tossed vegetation, reduce dust, sound, and flash signatures.  I know that with SF teams in a more typical short gun, door kicker type of mission set, the suppressor is used to protect hearing (often indoor) and enhance IFF and ability to communicate.  

The organizational procurement objectives, and the objectives of the military end users are most likely two or more, totally different sets of objectives.  I don't think the end users have nearly enough input on what they are issued.  I think if they were involved in procurement, there would be a lot more feedback, there would be a hell of a lot more passion and they would be getting things that work better for what they need them to accomplish.

At one of the events, an elite unit (who will obviously remain nameless) said we had an item that was hands down the best item of 8 vendors with said category item present, and other than as a positive statement, that was meaningless, because the elite unit has no particular representation in the procurement of their own gear.
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It sounds no different than the corporate world.  I have seen the same. many, many times.  At a certain point/level, a lot of jobs become 'political'  and to keep your job and get to the next level, ya got to go along, even if it's not the best solution.  Those that speak up are either smacked back down, remain stationary in their career, or are maneuvered out the door.  I'm certain not all companies are like that and DO reward independent thinking, but many of the one's I was a part of were the go along to get along type (mostly financial related).

In fact once, I was let go because I found a solution to an issue that delayed mortgage closings by several days (it was so simple it was almost stupid), I brought it up in more than one meeting but no-one cared, plus it made the Upper Mgt look bad, so eventually they found a way to get me out.  They don't actually want problems solved, they want what the uppers tell them to want, and you better shut up about what's best.

@Green0 thanks for he insider info, a lot of what you said makes 'sense' as to how the Military operates.
Link Posted: 4/20/2024 10:25:21 AM EDT
[#50]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By spydercomonkey:
Novekse making a CAT mount flash hider.

Noveske also a fan of weird / silly product names...

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2024/04/15/noveske-pig-pen-flash-hider/
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Wonder if that will work with CGS cans that are left hand thread.
Page / 22
CAT suppressors Vol.2 (Page 15 of 22)
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