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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Chisel Grind ??? (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 10/27/2012 8:06:30 AM EDT
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When a knife maker says that it has a "Chisel Grind"....
What is a chisel grind ? What are the pros and cons ? What does it look like ? |
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The main bevel is ground on one side. The other side is flat.
These are my pros and cons, it is all based on opinion and my personal experience, just like anybody's pros and cons will be. my Pros: Easy to sharpen because you only sharpen one side and then strop the burr off the back side Easy to grind thus keeping cost of the knife down for the consumer They work great for whittling and some bushcraft skills like trap making because of the flat side of the blade (you just have to use one to understand) my Cons: They tend to warp more during heat treat making them more of a challenge for the knife maker Some pros and cons that I have heard from others but do not necessarily agree with, Pros: They are good slicers (this has a lot to do with edge geometry than type of grind) Cons: They are harder to sharpen? I have never understood this. 
They don't cut straight. I have never experienced this. The knife maker is lazy. Not true (in my case, can't speak for everyone). They don't look cool, or they don't like the look ( I am more about function than form myself ) I am sure you will find more pros and cons with a google search but those are the big ones. It comes down to personal preference and I really like grinding them and using them so my choice is chisel grind. Here are some pics of one of mine. 
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Well, I've got a couple of chisel ground knives and (at least for me) I can confirm that they do not cut straight. The material is being pushed out away from the solid peice by only one side, so it tends to cut a curve if you do t hold it on an angle.
Also, Since they have a lower angle grind (because it only has one angle) technically speaking they are better slicers. (ie: knife one has a chisel grind @ 20 degrees, and hollow ground knife two also has 20 degree grinds, then knife two has twice the angle at the edge - 40 degrees). |
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Well, I've got a couple of chisel ground knives and (at least for me) I can confirm that they do not cut straight. The material is being pushed out away from the solid peice by only one side, so it tends to cut a curve if you do t hold it on an angle. Also, Since they have a lower angle grind (because it only has one angle) technically speaking they are better slicers. (ie: knife one has a chisel grind @ 20 degrees, and hollow ground knife two also has 20 degree grinds, then knife two has twice the angle at the edge - 40 degrees). This is edge geometry not anything to do with the grind. I can make a double bevel knife with edge grind being 15 degrees for 30 degree inclusive edge and I can make a chisel grind with a 30 degree inclusive edge. Nothing to do with grind, everything to do with inclusive degree of the edge. You can make a chisel grind that is a better slicer than a traditional grind and vice versa. So no, they are not better slicers by the grind alone. Also by design they should have a curve when cutting but like has already been said, I can't tell any difference (when I use them). Bottom line, personal preference. I used to hate them until I started using them. Now I have grown to prefer them. |
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Well, I oversimplified a bit for the OP, but generally speaking a chisel grind can have a lower inclusive angle without having to have an overly thin blade. It's physics man, if taken to the nth degree, a chisel grind will be half the minimum angle a v does, because it only HAS half of the angle.
I'm going to link a really good video by Mike Snody, owner of Snody knives. He'll explain it better then I do. Also, you'll note in the video where when he cuts into a phone book, the knife makes a pretty good curve. Sorry man, but just because YOU haven't experienced it, doesnt make it not possible. Mike Snody is a very highly repected bladesmith, and his experiences mirror mine with chisel grinds, which I actually happen to like. Fast forward to 41:50, and See his explination of a chisel grind, and then again at 47:00 to see the curved cut. [youtube]http://youtu.be/7j8CuN7MVYI[/youtube] |
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Well, I oversimplified a bit for the OP, but generally speaking a chisel grind can have a lower inclusive angle without having to have an overly thin blade. It's physics man, if taken to the nth degree, a chisel grind will be half the minimum angle a v does, because it only HAS half of the angle. I'm going to link a really good video by Mike Snody, owner of Snody knives. He'll explain it better then I do. Also, you'll note in the video where when he cuts into a phone book, the knife makes a pretty good curve. Sorry man, but just because YOU haven't experienced it, doesnt make it not possible. Mike Snody is a very highly repected bladesmith, and his experiences mirror mine with chisel grinds, which I actually happen to like. Fast forward to 41:50, and See his explination of a chisel grind, and then again at 47:00 to see the curved cut. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7j8CuN7MVYI I didn't say anything about being not possible and in my initial response I said this is my experience. And I will stand behind my first post that I have had no noticeable curve in any cutting tasks that I have performed. I have no doubt that if I took a chisel grind knife and sliced through a piece of paper that there would probably be a curve in the cut. But that is not one of the cutting tasks i usually do. Most of the cutting i do is, cord, rope, opening boxes, MREs, cutting tape, clothing, occasionally skinning, or bushcraft stuff, never cutting lengthwise through paper or a phonebook, I can't speak for Snody or anybody else. But in everyday tasks that i use my knives for I do not notice a curve while cutting. If you are ever on bladeforums you will notice some pretty damn good knifemakers that only do chisel grinds. OP you can read threads and opinions, experiences, claims, what have you, but until you have used it you will never know if you will like it. I never liked them and read all kinds of naysayers opinions about chisel grinds. I didn't think I would ever own one. Now that is what I prefer to own and make. I am in the military, do construction work and a lot of other stuff, and use them mainly for general purpose stuff and they work great, and are easier for me to sharpen. Best advice I can give you is now that you have some input from both sides of the fence try them out for yourself and see if you like them. 
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I didn't say anything about being not possible and in my initial response I said this is my experience. And I will stand behind my first post that I have had no noticeable curve in any cutting tasks that I have performed. I have no doubt that if I took a chisel grind knife and sliced through a piece of paper that there would probably be a curve in the cut. But that is not one of the cutting tasks i usually do. Most of the cutting i do is, cord, rope, opening boxes, MREs, cutting tape, clothing, occasionally skinning, or bushcraft stuff, never cutting lengthwise through paper or a phonebook, I can't speak for Snody or anybody else. But in everyday tasks that i use my knives for I do not notice a curve while cutting. No, pretty sure that in your second responce you basically said I was wrong, and attempted to correct me . "This is edge geometry not anything to do with the grind", which if you read it, is wrong because the edge geometry in THIS instance, is directly affected by the type of grind (IE, it only HAS half the geometry, unlike if you were discussing ONLY double grinds - like scandi vs convex). Also, "So no, they are not better slicers by the grind alone", is also basically untrue bcause of the simple physics involved (I guess Snody has no clue either then :p). Again, perhaps I should have said "TEND to be" better slicers vs the same thickness V grind, but I figured that generalizations would be good enough for you. My mistake man, I'll try to do better in the future.
I've had dissimilar experience, and just wanted to point it out. I'll also point out that I'm LEFT handed, which does make a difference for a chisel ground knife (a lefty is always cutting with the curved side down to the work, pushing it away,unlike a right handed person where you're always cutting with the flat side against the work, pushing itself deeper into the work). Perhaps I should have said MAY not cut straight, depending on the task. I was simply pointing out that MY expeirience has been that (for example, when whittling, or with a smaller blade - like a CRKT KISS - on thick cardboard) the blade tends to not cut straight. I also backed it up with some video, since you said that you'd heard it, but not "agreed with" it (evidence you can see is hard to refute , and the video is entertaining reguardless, so watch it!).
If you are ever on bladeforums you will notice some pretty damn good knifemakers that only do chisel grinds.
I'm not new to the block bud, been a member there since 2007 (same user name  ). Made it there a few years before you did, although I'm a few years older then you so I got a head start. Pretty sure I like Mike Snody (who does a lot of chisel grinds), and I've bought from Americna Kami. Hence the video Hoss, turn the defensive down a bit :). HOWEVER, Joe Talmadge (bladeforums mod, owner knifeart, general knife expert) has this to say: - The Chisel Grind
The chisel grind is a knife which is not ground at all on one side. So it is completely flat on one side, and has a bevel on the other. It is simple to produce (the maker need only grind one side), and simple to sharpen (it is sharpened on one side only, then the burr is stropped off the other side). It is also typically very sharp, due to the single bevel design. Whereas a blade ground on both sides might be sharpened at 20 degrees per side, for a total of 40-degrees edge angle, a chisel ground blade is often ground at around 30 degrees, making for a thin (and thus sharp) edge. Accurate slices are very difficult with the chisel grind, due to the fact that the non-symmetrical design forces the knife to curve in the medium being cut. Tune in your regular programming, as that's it for me as I can't see having any further meaningful input. By the way, discussions about different grind types usually turn into train wrecks. Try them all and decide for yourself.
Couldn't agree more, always use any excuse to buy new steel 
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Nothing new to say. Until somebody can show me a chisel blade with a 30 degree inclusive bevel that slices better than a double ground blade with a 30 degree inclusive bevel I still say it is edge geometry and inclusive bevel issue and not a chisel grind issue. I will say it for the third time, never said it was impossible but I don't notice curves in grinds when i use my knives for everyday choirs.
Wasn't really directing the bladeforums comment at toxic and sorry it came off that way. Sorry it came off as defensive but I really don't care how old anyone is, how long they have been on other forums, or how many times they have been around block. I was directing the bladeforum link to the OP more than anything because from my experience that website is ahead of the curve with arfcom when it comes to intelligent discussion. Once again, these are my experiences, in everyday use. Take it or leave it OP. Good luck and google is your friend.
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Ok so The knife I am looking at has a "chisel grind" it will be used for self defense , a tool and in possible survival situations. I feel a chisel grind is to limiting of a blade design to use as an all around knife specifically for survival situations... |
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Ok so The knife I am looking at has a "chisel grind" it will be used for self defense , a tool and in possible survival situations. I feel a chisel grind is to limiting of a blade design to use as an all around knife specifically for survival situations... True. I think it excels in trap making, whittling, making fuzz sticks and such but there are other things that a different grind may do better. Its a game of give or take. You just have to decide what you will use the knife for and get one based on your needs. I just sold four of them to medivac crews who are currently overseas. I am assuming they are carrying them as a type of pilot survival knife. I should get some field reports hopefully in a few months. When I do I will post how they are liking them.
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I think a basic drop point with a slight recurve is about the best all around blade design. Tantos are useless, and chisle are to job specific. That is funny you said that. I am making a knife right now for a silent auction at a church. The audience is mainly middle aged and older guys who do a lot of hunting and I have been working on this. It is a drop point with a slight recurve, but it is still a chisel grind. It is only 3/16 thick so I think it will do well for field chores and even skinning. 
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I think a basic drop point with a slight recurve is about the best all around blade design. Tantos are useless, and chisle are to job specific. That is funny you said that. I am making a knife right now for a silent auction at a church. The audience is mainly middle aged and older guys who do a lot of hunting and I have been working on this. It is a drop point with a slight recurve, but it is still a chisel grind. It is only 3/16 thick so I think it will do well for field chores and even skinning. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/ryan1105/drop.jpg Very nice knife. Good lines. BTW, I am also a knife maker. I pretty much only do folders. Quoted:
Chisel beveled knives have a very low working angle - almost zero degrees. The blade will cut when the flat side is almost parallel to whatever it is you are cutting. Yes, but you can really only use them with one hand. They don't work to well if you flip them over. That is really my biggest grip with that type of grind. You can get them crazy sharp though. |
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I think a basic drop point with a slight recurve is about the best all around blade design. Tantos are useless, and chisle are to job specific. That is funny you said that. I am making a knife right now for a silent auction at a church. The audience is mainly middle aged and older guys who do a lot of hunting and I have been working on this. It is a drop point with a slight recurve, but it is still a chisel grind. It is only 3/16 thick so I think it will do well for field chores and even skinning. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/ryan1105/drop.jpg Very nice knife. Good lines. BTW, I am also a knife maker. I pretty much only do folders. Quoted:
Chisel beveled knives have a very low working angle - almost zero degrees. The blade will cut when the flat side is almost parallel to whatever it is you are cutting. Yes, but you can really only use them with one hand. They don't work to well if you flip them over. That is really my biggest grip with that type of grind. You can get them crazy sharp though. Thanks. I wish I had the patience to do folders. Hats off to you. I agree, when you use it in your offhand for certain tasks it is less effective than your strong hand, and to me that is really the only downside to a chisel grind other than its tendency to warp more during HT. |
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If chisel rind has so many problems like not cutting straight and not being a goo slicer hard to sharpen or what ever...
If all this is true why are sushi knives chisel ground and have been for hundreds of years ? And are known as some of the sharpest knives in the world... |
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If chisel rind has so many problems like not cutting straight and not being a goo slicer hard to sharpen or what ever... If all this is true why are sushi knives chisel ground and have been for hundreds of years ? And are known as some of the sharpest knives in the world... I didn't say that it wasn't a good slicer and in fact like you have reads in this thread, more people think it is a better grind for slicing than other grinds, I just happen to think it has more to do with edge geometry more than the grind. I do believe in certain mediums and applications it will tend to go one way because of the grind causing a curve in the cut but I feel it is negligible and doesn't really make it a bad grind because of that. You just have to use one to decide what is negligible for you. The people that I have heard say they where harder to sharpen, after hearing more of what they had to say the knife in question wasn't a true chisel grind, because on the back (flat) side they had a micro bevel. So sharpening them is no different than sharpening a double sided grind and probably even harder because you don't have even bevels on both sides. If it is a true chisel grind I feel they are easier becuase there is no micro bevel on the back side. There is one bevel on the ground side (mine are around 30 degrees). So when you sharpen it you just sharpen the beveled side until you feel the burr on the flat side and then you just knock the burr off with a fine stone or strop. Easy. Hope that helps. |
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There's actually lots of benefits to a chisel grind versus a standard double bevel. Ease of sharpening is one, and whoever says that only having one side to sharpen is harder than having to balance sharpening between two sides needs to ease up on the crack. One of the things that I really like about chisels is that when you sharpen one, holding the stone in one hand, and drawing the knife across the stone towards you, you can watch the edge on the stone and make sure that it is laying flat on the stone through the whole sweep. With a standard double bevel, unless you switch hands and use your wrong hand to glide the knife across, you're gonna be punching the edge away from you and can't watch it. That's why I make left and right handed chisel.
When people say, oh a chisel is easier for the knife maker to grind so it should be cheaper, technically it's a wrong statement. The material still has to be ground off the blank, the maker is just grinding all the material off on the same side. The only time saved is the flipping the knife back and forth, which amounts to about diddly. Another benefit is the way the angles work out, there is slightly more material left through the main bevel, which adds a little strength to the knife. Also, since one side of the knife is straight to the spine on one side, the impact shock from chopping and beating is passed directly to the spine where it is displaced over the thickest part of the knife, versus getting reflected and refracted by multiple shoulders and bevels. One last, and I'll leave it at that because typing on an ipad is more of a pain than a computer, and this is just purely aesthetics, I prefer the look of a chisel ground knife more because the bevel is deeper and makes for a more pronounced grind line. Some people are gonna say, that I pimp chisels because that's what I make, but I make all my knives as either traditional double bevel or chisel, or scandi or convex for that matter, but the chisels by far get ordered more often and I e traded out all my double bevels for single bevels and I use my shit hard daily. |
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Most of my customers are new to chisel grinds. I have had nothing but good feedback from customers, particularly on the sharpness of them.
A point could be argued that chisel grind is actually more work, because of the the normalizing that needs to be done before heat treat and the higher chance of warping and thus having to straighten a blade. I have it down pretty good where I rarely have one that warps. My process is to make sure and not grind them too hard on initial grinding. Then normalize one good time and let air cool. Then heat, quench for around 5-7 seconds, then check for warping while the blade is still warm and flexible and use the vice to correct any warping as it cools. This is working great so far and I have yet to have a finished blade with noticeable warp. Do I pimp em? Maybe a little, but I am the maker and that is what I prefer to make. Do I lie to sell a chisel ground product? No. I tell you my experience with them and that ultimately the end user needs to try them to make a choice. Jericoh makes some sweet blades as I have seen them first hand overseas and there was never one time where myself or other users said, " man this would be better with a double ground blade". Jeremy Horton also makes a lot of chisel Blades as does Daniel Fairly, and I have heard nothing but great things about their knives as well. It all boils down to different strokes for different folks.
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In 8 years of making knives, I have never been asked to do a chisel ground blade. I didn't do them at all until about the 7th or 8th request that came in. Being hard headed it took that long. I finally broke down and made some to test out and haven't looked back. |
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Most of my customers are new to chisel grinds. I have had nothing but good feedback from customers, particularly on the sharpness of them. A point could be argued that chisel grind is actually more work, because of the the normalizing that needs to be done before heat treat and the higher chance of warping and thus having to straighten a blade. I have it down pretty good where I rarely have one that warps. My process is to make sure and not grind them too hard on initial grinding. Then normalize one good time and let air cool. Then heat, quench for around 5-7 seconds, then check for warping while the blade is still warm and flexible and use the vice to correct any warping as it cools. This is working great so far and I have yet to have a finished blade with noticeable warp. Do I pimp em? Maybe a little, but I am the maker and that is what I prefer to make. Do I lie to sell a chisel ground product? No. I tell you my experience with them and that ultimately the end user needs to try them to make a choice. Jericoh makes some sweet blades as I have seen them first hand overseas and there was never one time where myself or other users said, " man this would be better with a double ground blade". Jeremy Horton also makes a lot of chisel Blades as does Daniel Fairly, and I have heard nothing but great things about their knives as well. It all boils down to different strokes for different folks. See, I grind the shit outta mine and don't normalize, just straight into the oven. Same 7 second or so quench, in brine and then I clamp every blank while its still warm to a hardened piece of barstock. Then as the blade cool to room temp, it sets and is straight. I've yet to have a chisel warp. Although I have had a couple crack when the quench bucket cooled to much. Only a couple though. I tend to leave my edges thicker than most also which helps keep everything straight. Then I've got quench plates for the Elmax and CPM154CM blades and I grind them to finish thickness and have never had one warp or crack. |
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First, I use chiselground parangs in my work on the ranch here constantly, for trail maintenance, butchering, fence clearing, etc, etc, etc. They serve me and have for many years as primary survival tools on backcountry ski trips and while hunting. I can walk out my kitchen door and walk 185 miles without bumping into a human habitation, so when I say I rely on them, I mean it.
I make these knives and over the years have pretty much centered in on a few designs that I have found to be the best for my purposes. Second, I double bevel grind most of my SMALL KNIVES. In response to those who say they do not cut straight, that can be true, and is an advantage, in that two different cuts can be made with the parang; In trimming/limbing trees, this can be used to safety advantage and to prevent marring the trunk of the tree. Ditto many other cuts. It is true that use of a CG blade probably demands more skill, but when that skill is possessed, the knife is far superior IMO in function and service than a single bevel blade of similar proportions. Some pics; 
Below; On left, a CG parang, my favorite design. Next two; DBG kukris. 
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Most of my customers are new to chisel grinds. I have had nothing but good feedback from customers, particularly on the sharpness of them. A point could be argued that chisel grind is actually more work, because of the the normalizing that needs to be done before heat treat and the higher chance of warping and thus having to straighten a blade. I have it down pretty good where I rarely have one that warps. My process is to make sure and not grind them too hard on initial grinding. Then normalize one good time and let air cool. Then heat, quench for around 5-7 seconds, then check for warping while the blade is still warm and flexible and use the vice to correct any warping as it cools. This is working great so far and I have yet to have a finished blade with noticeable warp. Do I pimp em? Maybe a little, but I am the maker and that is what I prefer to make. Do I lie to sell a chisel ground product? No. I tell you my experience with them and that ultimately the end user needs to try them to make a choice. Jericoh makes some sweet blades as I have seen them first hand overseas and there was never one time where myself or other users said, " man this would be better with a double ground blade". Jeremy Horton also makes a lot of chisel Blades as does Daniel Fairly, and I have heard nothing but great things about their knives as well. It all boils down to different strokes for different folks. See, I grind the shit outta mine and don't normalize, just straight into the oven. Same 7 second or so quench, in brine and then I clamp every blank while its still warm to a hardened piece of barstock. Then as the blade cool to room temp, it sets and is straight. I've yet to have a chisel warp. Although I have had a couple crack when the quench bucket cooled to much. Only a couple though. I tend to leave my edges thicker than most also which helps keep everything straight. Then I've got quench plates for the Elmax and CPM154CM blades and I grind them to finish thickness and have never had one warp or crack. On 1/4" stock its a problem, it is only on 3/16" and under where I sometimes have warp issues. I may have to try your way, it sounds easier than what I am doing. Are you doing all of your heat treating now? Didn't you use Peters Heat treat at some point? If so what type of oven are you using? I think a good oven will be my next purchase. |
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First, I use chiselground parangs in my work on the ranch here constantly, for trail maintenance, butchering, fence clearing, etc, etc, etc. They serve me and have for many years as primary survival tools on backcountry ski trips and while hunting. I can walk out my kitchen door and walk 185 miles without bumping into a human habitation, so when I say I rely on them, I mean it. I make these knives and over the years have pretty much centered in on a few designs that I have found to be the best for my purposes. Second, I double bevel grind most of my SMALL KNIVES. In response to those who say they do not cut straight, that can be true, and is an advantage, in that two different cuts can be made with the parang; In trimming/limbing trees, this can be used to safety advantage and to prevent marring the trunk of the tree. Ditto many other cuts. It is true that use of a CG blade probably demands more skill, but when that skill is possessed, the knife is far superior IMO in function and service than a single bevel blade of similar proportions. Some pics; http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e115/Skaapskieter/WinterGear.jpg http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e115/Skaapskieter/KlewangHikeb.jpg Below; On left, a CG parang, my favorite design. Next two; DBG kukris. http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e115/Skaapskieter/KNIVESFinished/heavyknives2.jpg http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e115/Skaapskieter/KNIVESFinished/grallochingbowie.jpg http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e115/Skaapskieter/KNIVESFinished/tolleknivbolo.jpg http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e115/Skaapskieter/KNIVESFinished/shortbolo.jpg http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e115/Skaapskieter/KNIVESFinished/heavyparang44.jpg Good looking knives you got there. I love seeing pics of users. 
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Most of my customers are new to chisel grinds. I have had nothing but good feedback from customers, particularly on the sharpness of them. A point could be argued that chisel grind is actually more work, because of the the normalizing that needs to be done before heat treat and the higher chance of warping and thus having to straighten a blade. I have it down pretty good where I rarely have one that warps. My process is to make sure and not grind them too hard on initial grinding. Then normalize one good time and let air cool. Then heat, quench for around 5-7 seconds, then check for warping while the blade is still warm and flexible and use the vice to correct any warping as it cools. This is working great so far and I have yet to have a finished blade with noticeable warp. Do I pimp em? Maybe a little, but I am the maker and that is what I prefer to make. Do I lie to sell a chisel ground product? No. I tell you my experience with them and that ultimately the end user needs to try them to make a choice. Jericoh makes some sweet blades as I have seen them first hand overseas and there was never one time where myself or other users said, " man this would be better with a double ground blade". Jeremy Horton also makes a lot of chisel Blades as does Daniel Fairly, and I have heard nothing but great things about their knives as well. It all boils down to different strokes for different folks. See, I grind the shit outta mine and don't normalize, just straight into the oven. Same 7 second or so quench, in brine and then I clamp every blank while its still warm to a hardened piece of barstock. Then as the blade cool to room temp, it sets and is straight. I've yet to have a chisel warp. Although I have had a couple crack when the quench bucket cooled to much. Only a couple though. I tend to leave my edges thicker than most also which helps keep everything straight. Then I've got quench plates for the Elmax and CPM154CM blades and I grind them to finish thickness and have never had one warp or crack. On 1/4" stock its a problem, it is only on 3/16" and under where I sometimes have warp issues. I may have to try your way, it sounds easier than what I am doing. Are you doing all of your heat treating now? Didn't you use Peters Heat treat at some point? If so what type of oven are you using? I think a good oven will be my next purchase. Yep, I broke down and bought an Evenheat. The only things I still send to Peters are the ones with 14" blades an up. |
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My setup is a brick tunnel and an LP Gas torch followed by quenching in used motor oil or, for heavy processor bars I use to make butcher's cleavers, tepid water. Pretty simple, but works.
Then they go into an old electric oven I moved out to the shop when The Wife of my Life remodelled the kitchen. Since I use primarily scrapped millsaws, chainsaw bars and log processor bars that system works really well, tho I have to straighten some of the longer blades on the anvil during the hardening process. For some years I packed blades to Spokane Washington to a shop that had a Rockwell tester so I know what the various temps will give me for a final HRC. |
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Quoted: Sorry to butt in.. You say you don't normalize? You work with 1095 right? I triple normalize everything and mostly work with 5160. I'm sure you have it all figured out and tested but aren't you worried about uneven hardness.Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Most of my customers are new to chisel grinds. I have had nothing but good feedback from customers, particularly on the sharpness of them. A point could be argued that chisel grind is actually more work, because of the the normalizing that needs to be done before heat treat and the higher chance of warping and thus having to straighten a blade. I have it down pretty good where I rarely have one that warps. My process is to make sure and not grind them too hard on initial grinding. Then normalize one good time and let air cool. Then heat, quench for around 5-7 seconds, then check for warping while the blade is still warm and flexible and use the vice to correct any warping as it cools. This is working great so far and I have yet to have a finished blade with noticeable warp. Do I pimp em? Maybe a little, but I am the maker and that is what I prefer to make. Do I lie to sell a chisel ground product? No. I tell you my experience with them and that ultimately the end user needs to try them to make a choice. Jericoh makes some sweet blades as I have seen them first hand overseas and there was never one time where myself or other users said, " man this would be better with a double ground blade". Jeremy Horton also makes a lot of chisel Blades as does Daniel Fairly, and I have heard nothing but great things about their knives as well. It all boils down to different strokes for different folks. See, I grind the shit outta mine and don't normalize, just straight into the oven. Same 7 second or so quench, in brine and then I clamp every blank while its still warm to a hardened piece of barstock. Then as the blade cool to room temp, it sets and is straight. I've yet to have a chisel warp. Although I have had a couple crack when the quench bucket cooled to much. Only a couple though. I tend to leave my edges thicker than most also which helps keep everything straight. Then I've got quench plates for the Elmax and CPM154CM blades and I grind them to finish thickness and have never had one warp or crack. On 1/4" stock its a problem, it is only on 3/16" and under where I sometimes have warp issues. I may have to try your way, it sounds easier than what I am doing. Are you doing all of your heat treating now? Didn't you use Peters Heat treat at some point? If so what type of oven are you using? I think a good oven will be my next purchase. Yep, I broke down and bought an Evenheat. The only things I still send to Peters are the ones with 14" blades an up. |
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I know the last question wasn't directed at me but I just wanted to say that since I started normalizing I have had really good consistency with getting a good quench and it has dramatically helped keep blades from warping during quench.
Speaking of 5160, I have a bunch of it I plan on making some large choppers out of when I get time. I can't wait.
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| Not worried even a little bit. That's not what normalizing is for. Normalizing is solely for relieving the stresses built up in the steel during the grinding process. It doesn't even out anything. And unless you're using something thicker than quarter inch stock in something other than simple carbon steels where a lot of material is taken off, there is no need to worry about building up stresses. Normalizing is more for forgers that beat and bend the steel to their wills. They build up a lot of internal stress. For stock removal it's not necessary. |
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Quoted: I know the last question wasn't directed at me but I just wanted to say that since I started normalizing I have had really good consistency with getting a good quench and it has dramatically helped keep blades from warping during quench. Speaking of 5160, I have a bunch of it I plan on making some large choppers out of when I get time. I can't wait. Which is exactly why I normalize three times. You'll need to soak your 5160 to get the most out of it, I also triple quench. As milled 5160 is going to eat your belts for breakfast just beware and try not to get it too hot. Sometimes I wonder if I go overboard but I would hate to have a blade come back to me over something I could have done better. |
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Quoted:
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I know the last question wasn't directed at me but I just wanted to say that since I started normalizing I have had really good consistency with getting a good quench and it has dramatically helped keep blades from warping during quench. Speaking of 5160, I have a bunch of it I plan on making some large choppers out of when I get time. I can't wait. Which is exactly why I normalize three times. You'll need to soak your 5160 to get the most out of it, I also triple quench. As milled 5160 is going to eat your belts for breakfast just beware and try not to get it too hot. Sometimes I wonder if I go overboard but I would hate to have a blade come back to me over something I could have done better. How the hell do you triple quench? You mean triple temper I hope? |
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Quoted: Not worried even a little bit. That's not what normalizing is for. Normalizing is solely for relieving the stresses built up in the steel during the grinding process. It doesn't even out anything. And unless you're using something thicker than quarter inch stock in something other than simple carbon steels where a lot of material is taken off, there is no need to worry about building up stresses. Normalizing is more for forgers that beat and bend the steel to their wills. They build up a lot of internal stress. For stock removal it's not necessary. I know it's for relieving internal stresses. I'm not questioning your methods out of anything but curiosity.  I have a hard time thinking all of the heating and cooling from the grind doesn't take it's toll on the steel internally. You probably use ceramic belts though. Personally I've just had better results with heat treat overall when I normalize. Hey while I have you.. Do you have any experience with Bee belt grinders? |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I know the last question wasn't directed at me but I just wanted to say that since I started normalizing I have had really good consistency with getting a good quench and it has dramatically helped keep blades from warping during quench. Speaking of 5160, I have a bunch of it I plan on making some large choppers out of when I get time. I can't wait. Which is exactly why I normalize three times. You'll need to soak your 5160 to get the most out of it, I also triple quench. As milled 5160 is going to eat your belts for breakfast just beware and try not to get it too hot. Sometimes I wonder if I go overboard but I would hate to have a blade come back to me over something I could have done better. How the hell do you triple quench? You mean triple temper I hope? I triple temper too! To get the most out of 5160 I triple quench. |
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Quoted:
See, I grind the shit outta mine and don't normalize, just straight into the oven. Same 7 second or so quench, in brine and then I clamp every blank while its still warm to a hardened piece of barstock. Then as the blade cool to room temp, it sets and is straight. I've yet to have a chisel warp. Although I have had a couple crack when the quench bucket cooled to much. Only a couple though. I tend to leave my edges thicker than most also which helps keep everything straight. Then I've got quench plates for the Elmax and CPM154CM blades and I grind them to finish thickness and have never had one warp or crack. I was under the impression that when a crack appeared during a quench it was due to a small unseen flaw, not cooling too much. I see where rapid cooling would cause stresses and strain to be higher than normally produced. Then flaws that typically are not critical become critical but it could be seen like a proof load. Crack or no crack during quench the flaw is where the blade will want to break. I've personally used chisel points on corn knives, machetes, weed hooks, sickles and scythes. So I guess they are on biomass harvest and trimming tools. |
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Quoted:
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See, I grind the shit outta mine and don't normalize, just straight into the oven. Same 7 second or so quench, in brine and then I clamp every blank while its still warm to a hardened piece of barstock. Then as the blade cool to room temp, it sets and is straight. I've yet to have a chisel warp. Although I have had a couple crack when the quench bucket cooled to much. Only a couple though. I tend to leave my edges thicker than most also which helps keep everything straight. Then I've got quench plates for the Elmax and CPM154CM blades and I grind them to finish thickness and have never had one warp or crack. I was under the impression that when a crack appeared during a quench it was due to a small unseen flaw, not cooling too much. I see where rapid cooling would cause stresses and strain to be higher than normally produced. Then flaws that typically are not critical become critical but it could be seen like a proof load. Crack or no crack during quench the flaw is where the blade will want to break. I've personally used chisel points on corn knives, machetes, weed hooks, sickles and scythes. So I guess they are on biomass harvest and trimming tools. It's less to do with flaws. Lots of folks get knives to as close to finish ground as possible before they heat treat. I don't. I rough grind the shit outta them and they go into the oven having being ground at 36 grit. Nothing finer until after. The only time I've ever had a cracking problem was when the water was too cool. |
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I know the last question wasn't directed at me but I just wanted to say that since I started normalizing I have had really good consistency with getting a good quench and it has dramatically helped keep blades from warping during quench. Speaking of 5160, I have a bunch of it I plan on making some large choppers out of when I get time. I can't wait. Which is exactly why I normalize three times. You'll need to soak your 5160 to get the most out of it, I also triple quench. As milled 5160 is going to eat your belts for breakfast just beware and try not to get it too hot. Sometimes I wonder if I go overboard but I would hate to have a blade come back to me over something I could have done better. How the hell do you triple quench? You mean triple temper I hope? I triple temper too! To get the most out of 5160 I triple quench. There's no way to triple quench. If you heat the metal up and then quench it, it's hard. If you heat it up again you just made it soft again. There isn't any quenching more than once.your repeating a step that doesn't need to be repeated. Kinda like triple cryo'ing. Freezing the shot more than once ain't doing shit. I use ceramic belts and I never let the steel heat up that much before dunking it in ice cooled water. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I know the last question wasn't directed at me but I just wanted to say that since I started normalizing I have had really good consistency with getting a good quench and it has dramatically helped keep blades from warping during quench. Speaking of 5160, I have a bunch of it I plan on making some large choppers out of when I get time. I can't wait. Which is exactly why I normalize three times. You'll need to soak your 5160 to get the most out of it, I also triple quench. As milled 5160 is going to eat your belts for breakfast just beware and try not to get it too hot. Sometimes I wonder if I go overboard but I would hate to have a blade come back to me over something I could have done better. How the hell do you triple quench? You mean triple temper I hope? I triple temper too! To get the most out of 5160 I triple quench. There's no way to triple quench. If you heat the metal up and then quench it, it's hard. If you heat it up again you just made it soft again. There isn't any quenching more than once.your repeating a step that doesn't need to be repeated. Kinda like triple cryo'ing. Freezing the shot more than once ain't doing shit. I use ceramic belts and I never let the steel heat up that much before dunking it in ice cooled water. I get it, I've tried other things with 5160 and compared the results, it works what else can I say. About the Bee Grinder.. Worth the $ or would you just go with a KMG?
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Quoted:
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I know the last question wasn't directed at me but I just wanted to say that since I started normalizing I have had really good consistency with getting a good quench and it has dramatically helped keep blades from warping during quench. Speaking of 5160, I have a bunch of it I plan on making some large choppers out of when I get time. I can't wait. Which is exactly why I normalize three times. You'll need to soak your 5160 to get the most out of it, I also triple quench. As milled 5160 is going to eat your belts for breakfast just beware and try not to get it too hot. Sometimes I wonder if I go overboard but I would hate to have a blade come back to me over something I could have done better. How the hell do you triple quench? You mean triple temper I hope? I triple temper too! To get the most out of 5160 I triple quench. There's no way to triple quench. If you heat the metal up and then quench it, it's hard. If you heat it up again you just made it soft again. There isn't any quenching more than once.your repeating a step that doesn't need to be repeated. Kinda like triple cryo'ing. Freezing the shot more than once ain't doing shit. I use ceramic belts and I never let the steel heat up that much before dunking it in ice cooled water. I get it, I've tried other things with 5160 and compared the results, it works what else can I say. About the Bee Grinder.. Worth the $ or would you just go with a KMG?
Go with the KMG, or if you want something a little less spendy, look at Pheer grinders. They run about the same price as a basic KMG, but come with variable speed controllers and a ton of options. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I know the last question wasn't directed at me but I just wanted to say that since I started normalizing I have had really good consistency with getting a good quench and it has dramatically helped keep blades from warping during quench. Speaking of 5160, I have a bunch of it I plan on making some large choppers out of when I get time. I can't wait. Which is exactly why I normalize three times. You'll need to soak your 5160 to get the most out of it, I also triple quench. As milled 5160 is going to eat your belts for breakfast just beware and try not to get it too hot. Sometimes I wonder if I go overboard but I would hate to have a blade come back to me over something I could have done better. How the hell do you triple quench? You mean triple temper I hope? I triple temper too! To get the most out of 5160 I triple quench. There's no way to triple quench. If you heat the metal up and then quench it, it's hard. If you heat it up again you just made it soft again. There isn't any quenching more than once.your repeating a step that doesn't need to be repeated. Kinda like triple cryo'ing. Freezing the shot more than once ain't doing shit. I use ceramic belts and I never let the steel heat up that much before dunking it in ice cooled water. I get it, I've tried other things with 5160 and compared the results, it works what else can I say. About the Bee Grinder.. Worth the $ or would you just go with a KMG? Go with the KMG, or if you want something a little less spendy, look at Pheer grinders. They run about the same price as a basic KMG, but come with variable speed controllers and a ton of options. Thank you, I'll take a look at Pheer as well. |
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Quoted:
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I know the last question wasn't directed at me but I just wanted to say that since I started normalizing I have had really good consistency with getting a good quench and it has dramatically helped keep blades from warping during quench. Speaking of 5160, I have a bunch of it I plan on making some large choppers out of when I get time. I can't wait. Which is exactly why I normalize three times. You'll need to soak your 5160 to get the most out of it, I also triple quench. As milled 5160 is going to eat your belts for breakfast just beware and try not to get it too hot. Sometimes I wonder if I go overboard but I would hate to have a blade come back to me over something I could have done better. How the hell do you triple quench? You mean triple temper I hope? I triple temper too! To get the most out of 5160 I triple quench. There's no way to triple quench. If you heat the metal up and then quench it, it's hard. If you heat it up again you just made it soft again. There isn't any quenching more than once.your repeating a step that doesn't need to be repeated. Kinda like triple cryo'ing. Freezing the shot more than once ain't doing shit. I use ceramic belts and I never let the steel heat up that much before dunking it in ice cooled water. Timberwolf, you described what is known as a triple quench. It is a heat treating technique and there are some high profile blade smiths that swear by it and I have only heard of it in some high carbon and other forging steels like 5160. I really don't see how it helps and it seems kind of redundant to me but like I said, it is a way, but to each his own. Maybe someone that knows more about steel chemistry than me can chime in about triple quenching. |
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I know the last question wasn't directed at me but I just wanted to say that since I started normalizing I have had really good consistency with getting a good quench and it has dramatically helped keep blades from warping during quench. Speaking of 5160, I have a bunch of it I plan on making some large choppers out of when I get time. I can't wait. Which is exactly why I normalize three times. You'll need to soak your 5160 to get the most out of it, I also triple quench. As milled 5160 is going to eat your belts for breakfast just beware and try not to get it too hot. Sometimes I wonder if I go overboard but I would hate to have a blade come back to me over something I could have done better. How the hell do you triple quench? You mean triple temper I hope? I triple temper too! To get the most out of 5160 I triple quench. There's no way to triple quench. If you heat the metal up and then quench it, it's hard. If you heat it up again you just made it soft again. There isn't any quenching more than once.your repeating a step that doesn't need to be repeated. Kinda like triple cryo'ing. Freezing the shot more than once ain't doing shit. I use ceramic belts and I never let the steel heat up that much before dunking it in ice cooled water. Timberwolf, you described what is known as a triple quench. It is a heat treating technique and there are some high profile blade smiths that swear by it and I have only heard of it in some high carbon and other forging steels like 5160. I really don't see how it helps and it seems kind of redundant to me but like I said, it is a way, but to each his own. Maybe someone that knows more about steel chemistry than me can chime in about triple quenching. I am not about to criticise anyone else's methods. They are what they are, and if proven in hard use are impossible to then criticise. For myself, I use my parangs as tools for chores {brutally hard use for most knife makers...} and such and my methods, proven out by years of hard, and I mean hard, use by me and others, work. I do not "triple quench" but have read of swordsmiths and such that/who use "triple quenching" {or some such similar term} who swear by it. So, it is said, multiple heating to critical temp and quenching orients the microstructure of the steel to improve service characteristics. I cannot prove them wrong, and have no reason to want to. If their knives hold up as well as mine then I say by all means do it. It is worth it. |
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I've never triple quenched, heat treated a knife but I have seen it done on inspection standards for CMM machines. I've seen a few metallic standards that have had a series of 8 heat treat cycles to get rid of residual stresses. Most people and knives won't notice or show a difference, but there are likely a few applications where it could be beneficial.
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As for the Original Question, I do single, double edge, convex, flat grind, and on occasion concave grind and depending on the customer will do what they ask unless they get one of my 'fiddlin' knives where I have material and I make something I want to try.
I like the Chisel Grind on many of my personal knives. They are strong, sharp and cut well what I need them to do. My favorite is a 1/8" thick Beta Ti piece that has a full grind height. Problem slicing? NO WAY!! Why do you think sushi knives are chisel ground? For the super fine slicing it can do. Flat side to the work and the chisel side to the waste. If you maintain that you will slice wonderfully. Most chisel grinds are for right handed people...the grind should be on the side that you are handed when holding the knife. My issue is that no one seems to understand this. One maker in particular is Timberline. I have one of their 'tanto' folders that is built like a tank....but the grind is for the left handed person and it is severely convex. I find it frikkin annoying to use. I don't even think they have a clue. Don't like them? Don't buy them. It is simple. Don't own one or use one? Don't trash them. They have their place. And I have used one for skinning and dressing out game and it works beautifully. |
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When you are talking about structural steel you're talking about an entirely different set of parameters a d requirements for heat treating. The steps required to heat treat a knife, even as thick as 3/8" is way different than a 4" thick structural piece. One thing that people need to take into account is heat treating instructions and practices put out my steel mills are based on steel that is 1" thick or more. It's a good starting point for makers using thinner steel, but shit has to be adjusted. Some of the newer high end stainless steels, the HT formulas are based on using vacuum heat treating and no maker that I know of has experience using a vacuum furnace let alone the room for one.
If you have a methodology that you like then by all means run with it. I'm just showing where some time and production steps can be streamlined. That being said, triple quenching does nothing for simple steels just as cryo treatments do nothing for simple steels, but I still do it. Simple steels at critical temp are simple steels at critical temp no matter how many times they've been heated and quenched . |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Chisel Grind ??? (Page 1 of 2)
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