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Posted: 9/19/2010 6:39:41 PM EDT
| Do I need one? Do you guys ever use one, if you have one? Other than the curiosity factor, I don;t really see needing a chrono. What say you? |
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I use mine when working up loads.
I don't see how you can do load work without one. You could look for pressure signs, and accuracy. Accuracy without velocity is still sorta guessing(ala subjective), and pressure signs simply tell you the top end boundary(which may not be where accuracy is for your gun). What methodology would you use without one? |
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OK, I am game and want to follow up on this point. I do use a chrono when I do load development, but I have to be honest and say that apart from seeing how consistent the MV was, I am not sure as to how else to use it.
Sure, there are published data out there telling you at xxx grains, you should get MV of xxx ft/sec, so the idea is to not exceed those MVs. However, unfortunately, we all know (or should know by now) that most of those figures bear little resemblance to reality i.e. the MVs we get with our guns because the published numbers were obtained using a test barrel that is usually longer than the ones we use. I for one find that I usually never come close to the MV in the published data. So short of catching errors such as not properly weighting the powder and doing something inappropriate like wrong bullet weight, primer, etc, what exactly can you use this data for? So please tell me how do you use your chrono data? This question is NOT directed to motopic but anyone who might have a constructive answer. |
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Yes I load for accuracy but sometimes as I'm working up my load I find a real accurate load right off the bottom but with my chronograph I can determine if it's good enough or should I keep going and find a load just as accurate but at a higher velocity, I usually try and reach factory ammo velocity at least(not 5.56 velocity but Match ammo velocity).
With my 6.8 it's a must because load data for a spec-II chamber doesn't exist "yet" and if you go off what the books say you are loosing major velocity since the velocity obtained in the books where at SAAMI pressure and that same load is at a much less pressure so I keep working up until I reach the velocity the book said or what ever is most accurate and in many cases that may be as much as 3+ grains more than the book said but with the Chrono I know that powder at that velocity is "usually" safe even though it took 2 more gr's of RE-10X or 3 more grains of RE7 to get it there depending on bullet weight(85gr TSX 3K+ FPS & 110gr H-BTHP 2,840 avg FPS and super accurate). I have the Competition Electronics Pro Digital Chrono with theDigital remote so I can change strings and review shot data from the bench and not have to wait for the line to go cold at the range so I can start testing the next load, so far it's been great and has never missed a shot or given an error message with 4-500+ rounds through it. I have mine setup on a SLICK U5500 camera tripod just like the ones Sinclair sells but a different model # and picked up an extra set of Diffusers and rods while I was ordering just in case since I'm not the best shot with my .40 cal pistol but for rifle I setup on the bench and put out the target and when I'm ready to set out the Chrono I use a Laser Lite bore sighter in the end of the barrel to make sure the laser is dead center of the screen area when aimed at the target so there is no chance of shooting it this way off a rest/sled when testing loads. . 
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Yes I load for accuracy but sometimes as I'm working up my load I find a real accurate load right off the bottom but with my chronograph I can determine if it's good enough or should I keep going and find a load just as accurate but at a higher velocity, I usually try and reach factory ammo velocity at least(not 5.56 velocity but Match ammo velocity). With my 6.8 it's a must because load data for a spec-II chamber doesn't exist "yet" and if you go off what the books say you are loosing major velocity since the velocity obtained in the books where at SAAMI pressure and that same load is at a much less pressure so I keep working up until I reach the velocity the book said or what ever is most accurate and in many cases that may be as much as 3+ grains more than the book said but with the Chrono I know that powder at that velocity is "usually" safe even though it took 2 more gr's of RE-10X or 3 more grains of RE7 to get it there depending on bullet weight(85gr TSX 3K+ FPS & 110gr H-BTHP 2,840 avg FPS and super accurate). I have the Competition Electronics Pro Digital Chrono with theDigital remote so I can change strings and review shot data from the bench and not have to wait for the line to go cold at the range so I can start testing the next load, so far it's been great and has never missed a shot or given an error message with 4-500+ rounds through it. I have mine setup on a SLICK U5500 camera tripod just like the ones Sinclair sells but a different model # and picked up an extra set of Diffusers and rods while I was ordering just in case since I'm not the best shot with my .40 cal pistol but for rifle I setup on the bench and put out the target and when I'm ready to set out the Chrono I use a Laser Lite bore sighter in the end of the barrel to make sure the laser is dead center of the screen area when aimed at the target so there is no chance of shooting it this way off a rest/sled when testing loads. . [url=http://media.midwayusa.com/ProductImages/Medium/852429.jpg]http://media.midwayusa.com/ProductImages/Medium/852429.jpg/url] [url=http://spinstage.http.internapcdn.net/Spinstage/userdocs/skus/p_749005633_1.jpg]http://spinstage.http.internapcdn.net/Spinstage/userdocs/skus/p_749005633_1.jpg/url] [url=http://media.midwayusa.com/ProductImages/Medium/858466.jpg]http://media.midwayusa.com/ProductImages/Medium/858466.jpg/url] [url=http://media.midwayusa.com/ProductImages/Medium/128143.jpg]http://media.midwayusa.com/ProductImages/Medium/128143.jpg/url] I'm using a ghetto version of EWP's setup and for exactly the same reason. 6.8 data is hard to come by, and since most bullets are designed to work within a specific velocity range, this helps out. I also don't end up wasting components on ammo that won't expand or fragment like they're supposed to. I also used it to determine if a recipe would be worth using on a long range course of fire––––my most accurate .308 recipe (at 100 yds) was only moving at 2300 FPS––-and that was with a powder charge that the manufacturer's data said would be in the 2550 FPS vicinity. It would have been subsonic and destabilized after about 400-500 yds or so.....too bad, because it shoots bugholes at 100 yds. I bought a Chrony from Midway (the cheapest one they had) and a cheap tripod from walmart. I'm out less than $125, but I'm light years ahead on my loading. |
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Yes I load for accuracy but sometimes as I'm working up my load I find a real accurate load right off the bottom but with my chronograph I can determine if it's good enough or should I keep going and find a load just as accurate but at a higher velocity, I usually try and reach factory ammo velocity at least(not 5.56 velocity but Match ammo velocity). With my 6.8 it's a must because load data for a spec-II chamber doesn't exist "yet" and if you go off what the books say you are loosing major velocity since the velocity obtained in the books where at SAAMI pressure and that same load is at a much less pressure so I keep working up until I reach the velocity the book said or what ever is most accurate and in many cases that may be as much as 3+ grains more than the book said but with the Chrono I know that powder at that velocity is "usually" safe even though it took 2 more gr's of RE-10X or 3 more grains of RE7 to get it there depending on bullet weight(85gr TSX 3K+ FPS & 110gr H-BTHP 2,840 avg FPS and super accurate). I have the Competition Electronics Pro Digital Chrono with theDigital remote so I can change strings and review shot data from the bench and not have to wait for the line to go cold at the range so I can start testing the next load, so far it's been great and has never missed a shot or given an error message with 4-500+ rounds through it. I have mine setup on a SLICK U5500 camera tripod just like the ones Sinclair sells but a different model # and picked up an extra set of Diffusers and rods while I was ordering just in case since I'm not the best shot with my .40 cal pistol but for rifle I setup on the bench and put out the target and when I'm ready to set out the Chrono I use a Laser Lite bore sighter in the end of the barrel to make sure the laser is dead center of the screen area when aimed at the target so there is no chance of shooting it this way off a rest/sled when testing loads. . [url=http://media.midwayusa.com/ProductImages/Medium/852429.jpg]http://media.midwayusa.com/ProductImages/Medium/852429.jpg/url] [url=http://spinstage.http.internapcdn.net/Spinstage/userdocs/skus/p_749005633_1.jpg]http://spinstage.http.internapcdn.net/Spinstage/userdocs/skus/p_749005633_1.jpg/url] [url=http://media.midwayusa.com/ProductImages/Medium/858466.jpg]http://media.midwayusa.com/ProductImages/Medium/858466.jpg/url] [url=http://media.midwayusa.com/ProductImages/Medium/128143.jpg]http://media.midwayusa.com/ProductImages/Medium/128143.jpg/url] I'm using a ghetto version of EWP's setup and for exactly the same reason. 6.8 data is hard to come by, and since most bullets are designed to work within a specific velocity range, this helps out. I also don't end up wasting components on ammo that won't expand or fragment like they're supposed to. I also used it to determine if a recipe would be worth using on a long range course of fire––––my most accurate .308 recipe (at 100 yds) was only moving at 2300 FPS––-and that was with a powder charge that the manufacturer's data said would be in the 2550 FPS vicinity. It would have been subsonic and destabilized after about 400-500 yds or so.....too bad, because it shoots bugholes at 100 yds. I bought a Chrony from Midway (the cheapest one they had) and a cheap tripod from walmart. I'm out less than $125, but I'm light years ahead on my loading. BIG A+ to what he said also, I got my stand at Best Buy for under $25 IIRC it was not as high as Sinclair's. EWP |
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I use mine a lot, almost everytime. I use mine to tell when I'm reaching maximum load, you can tell because for a certain percentage increase in powder charge you will get a certain percentage increase in velocity. When the percentage increase in velocity starts to go down, you are getting diminishing returns and are just wasting powder. I also like to measure a few factory rounds that have a known velocity as a baseline with my chrono and weather conditions. |
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Do I need one? Do you guys ever use one, if you have one? Other than the curiosity factor, I don;t really see needing a chrono. What say you? Very handy. I've shot 2 myself. Not real good eatin' though  I setup on the bench and put out the target and when I'm ready to set out the Chrono I use a Laser Lite bore sighter in the end of the barrel to make sure the laser is dead center of the screen area when aimed at the target so there is no chance of shooting it this way off a rest/sled when testing loads. . |
| I've never used one so I'm not throwing stones, just asking questions. I'm not sure anybody has answered whether a chono is necessary to get accuracy. Can't you see that by just looking on the paper? You can see multiple accuracy nodes on a load progression, and decide if you want to use more or less powder to get the desired accuracy based on what you see on your target. I do get the point that you may want to know what kind of MV your projectile needs to get the desired terminal ballistics, and long range performance, that does make some sense. As far as safety goes, does it matter what the MV is if your primers are flat, cratered and backed out? Don't you need to reduce load (or change/fix something else) regardless? I guess the only thing I see is measuring the MV deviations, which could indicate possible errant powder throws. Am I missing something? |
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Quoted: I've never used one so I'm not throwing stones, just asking questions. I'm not sure anybody has answered whether a chono is necessary to get accuracy. Can't you see that by just looking on the paper? You can see multiple accuracy nodes on a load progression, and decide if you want to use more or less powder to get the desired accuracy based on what you see on your target. I do get the point that you may want to know what kind of MV your projectile needs to get the desired terminal ballistics, and long range performance, that does make some sense. As far as safety goes, does it matter what the MV is if your primers are flat, cratered and backed out? Don't you need to reduce load (or change/fix something else) regardless? I guess the only thing I see is measuring the MV deviations, which could indicate possible errant powder throws. Am I missing something? Well...kind of, but no, not really. I've found it extremely useful, but I don't think it's necessary, no. |
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Yes you are correct, the biggest use is for hunting bullets and HD style bullets that open at certain velocities, like with my 6.8 the 95gr Barnes TTSX will expand down to 1600 FPS, so if I know the MV I can figure the ft/lb of energy and how far I can take shots at before the bullet will no longer expand and be effective and it's also very useful for figuring drop in your bullet flight path if you know how fast it going vs just guessing or trying to figure it out yourself buy shooting at every distance to see where the POI is..
Some shooter use chronographs to figure their pistol loads for proper expansion(HD/service rounds) and power factors for competition use, but as far as just shooting paper and having no real use for your bullet or it's performance other than making holes in paper then there is no need to know how fast it's going to make an accurate load. My 75gr BTHP load has a MV of 2550 FPS and is very accurate but I would like at least 2780 FPS if I can get that MV in an accurate safe load and there is no way to do that without a chronograph. In 6.8 I have tested powders including RE7, AA2015, AA2200, H322, N133, RE-10X, Benchmark, and plan to test N130 & AA1680 when I get a chance but of all those powders some gave better accuracy at a much higher velocity at the same safe pressure level than others, so how do you know which powder was the best(accuracy, velocity per-pressure reading) without a chronograph? |
| Probably not necessary but still nice to have. It can save you from wasting allot of time especially working up a load for longer ranges where you might want to work up a load with higher velocities. I usually test at 100-200yds when working up a load and I may get great results with a slower bullet but if my chronograph tells me I'll be lobbing these things when I start to shoot past 300yds then I know not to waste any more time with that particular load. A basic chronograph cost less than what I spend on reloading ammo in a month during prairie dog season. |
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I have the Competition Electronics Pro Digital Chrono with theDigital remote so I can change strings and review shot data from the bench and not have to wait for the line to go cold at the range so I can start testing the next load, so far it's been great and has never missed a shot or given an error message with 4-500+ rounds through it. I have mine setup on a SLICK U5500 camera tripod just like the ones Sinclair sells but a different model # and picked up an extra set of Diffusers and rods while I was ordering just in case since I'm not the best shot with my .40 cal pistol but for rifle I setup on the bench and put out the target and when I'm ready to set out the Chrono I use a Laser Lite bore sighter in the end of the barrel to make sure the laser is dead center of the screen area when aimed at the target so there is no chance of shooting it this way off a rest/sled when testing loads. .
http://media.midwayusa.com/ProductImages/Medium/852429.jpg http://spinstage.http.internapcdn.net/Spinstage/userdocs/skus/p_749005633_1.jpg http://media.midwayusa.com/ProductImages/Medium/858466.jpg http://media.midwayusa.com/ProductImages/Medium/128143.jpg Great, it's on sale too. I wonder where all my money goes??
Is there a display on the digital remote or does all the info have to be read straight from the chrony? Would I be missing any features without picking up the remote? My range is the desert so it's usually me and a buddy out there. |
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Point taken, chrono ordered. I'm an easy touch  Which one did you get? Iwas just about to post the same thing, but honestly dont you guys look at the accurracy of your reloads, not the velocity? Thats what I have been doing, I would definitely prefer accuracy over velocity. But I also thought it would be informative/interesting to see the velocity. I bought this one Shooting Chrony Beta |
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I've never used one so I'm not throwing stones, just asking questions. I'm not sure anybody has answered whether a chono is necessary to get accuracy. Can't you see that by just looking on the paper? You can see multiple accuracy nodes on a load progression, and decide if you want to use more or less powder to get the desired accuracy based on what you see on your target. I do get the point that you may want to know what kind of MV your projectile needs to get the desired terminal ballistics, and long range performance, that does make some sense. As far as safety goes, does it matter what the MV is if your primers are flat, cratered and backed out? Don't you need to reduce load (or change/fix something else) regardless? I guess the only thing I see is measuring the MV deviations, which could indicate possible errant powder throws. Am I missing something? I absolutely don't think that a chronograph is 'necessary', especially for a paper puncher.....but they eliminate a lot of the trial/error aspect of reloading. If you're only shooting paper at 100 yds, you probably don't need one because as long as you're not seeing any pressure signs, the only thing that's important to you is the grouping on the target––-but 100% of my shooting is geared towards killing something at distances beyond arms length. I want to make sure that I have the most effective tools at my disposal. I like knowing approximately how far the bullet will travel before it loses too much steam to do the job. I use my 6.8 exclusively for hunting hogs, and while my loads aren't nuclear, I want something that I have no doubts will get through a 300 lb boar's shoulder plate at the distances I'm comfortable taking a shot. My .308 is my long range rifle and it's a helluvalot easier to build up a basic ballistics sheet for a promising recipe if you already have a good estimate of how fast the bullet is traveling leaving the bore. By punching the numbers into a ballistics calculator, you can get a decent idea how much drop and windage you need to dial in at 300, 400, 500, and beyond.....you still need to actually shoot at those distances to tune your sheet to the rifle, but it's a lot easier when you have a place to start at. Something else to think about is that every firearm shoots differently and there's no such thing as accurate data until it's been tested in your gun. Published load data for my 6.8 says that 28.5 grains of Benchmark should be shooting 110gr Hornady V-Max at around 2550 FPS. My rifle shoots that particular load at 2275 FPS. **it turns out that Hodgdon used a 24" barrel for their data.....no way I'd get this velocity from a 16" with that powder charge. Because of the low speed, the effective range of my rifle with that particular load is reduced because it won't violently fragment as designed beyond about 250 yds. Without the chronograph, I wouldn't know this and might have taken that perfect broadside 300 yd shot––and an animal gets an icepick wound and runs off instead of the expected DRT. The chronograph isn't a magical device that will allow you to get stupid with powder charges and velocities, and not all shooters will ever really 'need' one.....it's just another tool in the toolbox––one that I find helps me find a balance of accuracy and velocity much more easily. |
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I use mine when working up loads. I don't see how you can do load work without one. Honestly, I beg to differ. They are not necessary. You could look for pressure signs, and accuracy. You'd better be watching for these. The velocity data is just "icing on the cake". Accuracy without velocity is still sorta guessing(ala subjective), and pressure signs simply tell you the top end boundary(which may not be where accuracy is for your gun). There's nothing guessing about it. Accuracy is accuracy. I'll take accuracy any day over a particular velocity, as long as it cycles my rifle reliably (which by the way, is another very important characteristic of a load that is more important than velocity). What methodology would you use without one? I would use, and do use, the ladder method. Also known as the incremental load development method or the Audette method. These methods identify a load which is both accurate and insensitive to powder charge weight. It does not rely on velocity or having a chronograph, at all. I forgot to mention, I've got two chronographs. My first was a PACT Pro. Currently I own and use a CED Millenium II. I use them because I am a numbers freak but they are not necessary, at all. |
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Do I need one? Do you guys ever use one, if you have one? Other than the curiosity factor, I don;t really see needing a chrono. What say you? Very handy. I've shot 2 myself. Not real good eatin' though I've shot mine twice now.
Honestly, I don't really use mine much. A hundred fps isn't going to matter to a paper target or an animal. It can help show when you're reaching the max safe powder charge, or when a load combo is entirely erratic. |
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Sorry for the late response but I am on the road and in fact have been on the road all day. Thanks for the replies guys! Much appreciated.
I can understand the need for a chrono as per working up a load for 6.8 – the rationale mentioned make sense to me, knowing speed necessary for hunting/HD. Power factor for IDPA is a must also. However for reloading 556/223, I see little justification. I guess using a chrono to see what my MVs are for the accurate powder weights is useful, but it would seem that we are bounded here more by the available accurate zones i.e. if you have two weights that are accurate, if speed is important for you, you just use the higher one (as long as it is safe). Knowing the actual speed to me seems like icing on the cake as it is always below factory published MV and I don’t really feel that there is a good chance that you can match the max published MV without going way over max load. Not sure I would agree that one can use the MV to tell one is reaching maximum load. In my own experience, within the published powder weight range i.e. start load to max load, the increase in MV as a function of powder weight appears to be linear and the data is not good enough to detect non-linearity – I admit I could be wrong here, but this is just what I have seen. The graph published in ABC of reloading appears to say the same thing. BTW, I read somewhere that when you are in one of those sweet powder weight spots, you should expect to see inconsistent MVs and that powder weight areas where the MVs are tight are actually not sweet spots for tight groups. So I still am puzzled by the claim that using a chrono has any particular use for safety or for that matter accuracy (as per stevelish’s comment). |
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Do I need one? Do you guys ever use one, if you have one? Other than the curiosity factor, I don;t really see needing a chrono. What say you? They are good for giving independent feedback that you have wound up where you planned on going with your handload recipe. Otherwise, you only have some downrange targets to look at and some fired brass to evaluate. For instance, if you planned on 3,000 FPS but for some unknown reason you are clocking 3500 FPS, it is time to stop shooting and look for the reason why. It may be overpressure, which did not blow up your gun, YET. Once you have found your "best accuracy" recipe and measured muzzle velocity, you can make up a fairly accurate range card for your rifle / handload combination that will cover all ranges. For the latter reason, hunters that do not reload, often use chronographs as well. |
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Do I need one? Do you guys ever use one, if you have one? Other than the curiosity factor, I don;t really see needing a chrono. What say you? Sir, FWIW I've used a chronograph during load development for quite a few years. My first chrono was a PACT PC2, my current is the PACT pro XP with IR screens. First, I have to agree that use of a chronograph is not essential to developing accurate loads. A reasonably intelligent reloader can develop quite accurate loads without one. My main purpose in using a chronograph is to determine the average velocities of my reloads, but I also discovered that loads with lower SD and ES seem to group better than loads with higher numbers. As an active HP rifle competitor while I can easily develop a load that shoots sub MOA but it is also important for my purposes that the groups are also sub MOA. Back in the days before I had a chronograph it was not uncommon to have one or two "flyers" in my rapid fire groups. In slow fire stages occasionally a shot or two would be outside of the group. I used to attribute this phenomena to the inadequate skills of the shooter. I now realize that while my skills as a shooter may have lacked there was also some variable of the load that contributed to the problem. When I started working with a chronograph I realized the relation between low SD and group size. A low SD is usually an indication that the group size will be smaller because there is less variation in the velocity of the bullet. When I have a load with a high ES there seems to be some indication of what is often referred to as vertical stringing, and when the bullet velocity has a wide variation there seems to be a greater effect due to conditions laterally. These factors seem to contribute to the dispersion of the groups. FWIW, when I set up my screens in front of the shooting bench I align them with a target downrange. This way I can sight through the screens and shoot for groups at the same time. Often when I see that the group size is good there are corresponding lower SD and ES numbers but not always. Since I shoot semi auto gas operated rifles in competition it's also important that the rifle feed, extract, and eject reliably. While I don't need the chronograph to make that determination it's helpful to have the chronograph to know what velocity range I'm actually in because most of the published reloading data I have is based on loads developed in bolt action rifles. Gas operated rifles in other than the most common cartridges such as .308 and .223 are a whole different set of criteria to the formula. Just my humble opinion, HTH. 7zero1. |
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