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Posted: 2/24/2016 9:37:55 PM EDT
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Hello Hive,
I've been reloading now for almost 5 years and I've never really gotten to the point where I'm comfortable cranking out a couple hundred rounds per hour on my L-N-L. I have 2 concerns but I'll tackle the second concern in a separate post. One of my concerns is that bullet setback scares the heck out of me. With factory loaded ammo I cannot push the bullet back when I press down on top of the bullet on top of my work bench. No matter how much I use the Lee FCD or the very lousy Hornidy version eventually I can still push the bullet all the way back. Granted this takes quite a bit of pressure. To see if I was worrying too much I put 5 of my reloads behind 5 factory Winchester whitebox loads and went to the range. After shooting the 5 factory loads from my Glock 21 I measured my handloads to see if there was any set back. There was about 2-5 thousandths of set back. That's not much, but its still concerning that the bullets would set back at all after 5 rounds of shaking. I was using Winchester brass with barrys plated 230 grain bullets. My LNL is set up with carbide RCBS 45acp dies. Prime and charge off the press then use station one to flare, two to seat and three to crimp with a Lee FCD. If I crimp much more it seems to separate the plating from the lead. It wont push back, but the bullet just about freely spins in the case. Am I doing something wrong, or thinking too much? Maybe the components don't pair well together? Any suggestions? By the way for 223, 300BO and 308 my lee FCD seems to do fine and I cant push the bullets in at all. Thanks in advance! |
| Can you post pictures of your reloads? Also, do you get the "Coke bottle" effect after you seat your bullets? It sounds like your sizing die isn't either adjusted properly or is out of spec. I only crimp 45 ACP enough to remove the flare from expanding and have never had an issue with bullet setback. |
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Sounds like you are over crimping.
The crimp should only remove the newly created flare. Over crimping will squeeze a ring in the bullet. The flare should be just enough to get the bullet inserted without tipping the bullet over. The tension which prevents setback is created by the body of the casing. Be sure you are resizing the brass correctly. Missing this step usually causes the bullet to fall into the case too far. Be sure the bullet size is correct for the case and chamber / barrel. Also, over crimping can cause the round to move deeper into the chamber than its supposed to. Headspace depends on the crimp not getting squeezed in too much... |
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You can not increase the tension on a smooth sided bullet with a taper crimp die. You can however decrease it by crimping too much.
Your 45cap brass should have enough neck tension just from sizing the brass that no set back should occur. One look at a casing with a bullet seated in it should give you a good clue about how much tension the bullet has on it. I'm speaking of course about the noticeable bulge in the casing where the bullet is seated. Motor |
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These are my case mouth measurements in 45 ACP; Fired case .473-.478 Sized .466 Belled .478 Crimped .469-.470 First measure the diameter of your bullets. Should be .451-.452. If smaller, you found your problem. You also could have cases that have thin walls. But I've never had problems with Win cases in 45 ACP as they are my favorite. Try several other headstamps. If this doesn't change things, then it's an issue on how your dies are adjusted. Everyone else has that part covered. It will be worthwhile to post several clear pics of your rounds. Instructions are up in FAQ's. Good luck |
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Very helpful guys, thank you.
I think I've determined that I'm flaring too much. I took some measurements and here's what I came up with. The bullets are indeed .452 Fired cases are .473 on the high side Sized is .467 Flair .471 Bullet seated .472 with Lee FCD .471 
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I don't think you were flaring too much. My average mouth flare measures .482" on 45acp. I don't have any issues with my ammo.
If you don't have a good flare many flat base bullets try to tip over when entering the case month. This leads to crooked bullets and casings with unequal bulge where the base of the bullet is after seated. Motor |
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Quoted: Very helpful guys, thank you. I think I've determined that I'm flaring too much. I took some measurements and here's what I came up with. The bullets are indeed .452 Fired cases are .473 on the high side Sized is .467 Flair .471 Bullet seated .472 with Lee FCD .471 http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u271/TeXcape05/IMG_0018.jpg Not belled enough, other measurements fine. |
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Quoted: Motor and Dryflash, What I'm hearing is that I'm not belling the case enough. Would not flaring the case enough cause less than ideal crimp/tension between the bullet and the case? It can cause issues with seating bullets crooked, and scraping the sides and base of bullets on the case mouth. Especially if you didn't chamfer your cases. I also seat and crimp in separate dies, much easier to set up dies correctly. Remember we are giving you our best guesses as we are not there with you and all we have is what you post. If I was there, I would have the problem solved in short order. |
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Thanks for your help Flash and others.
My die is a crimp and seat combo, but I'm not using the crimp function on the seating die. After the seating die the freshly seated bullet goes through the lee FCD die. I'll try a bigger flare and report back my findings. Also, are your reloads crimped enough where no amount of thumb on bullet on top of bench will move the bullet? |
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Quoted: Thanks for your help Flash and others. My die is a crimp and seat combo, but I'm not using the crimp function on the seating die. After the seating die the freshly seated bullet goes through the lee FCD die. I'll try a bigger flare and report back my findings. Also, are your reloads crimped enough where no amount of thumb on bullet on top of bench will move the bullet? Good, seating and crimping in separate dies. Hard to say about the thumb pressure test. I measure the case mouth. Should be .469 to .471. |
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Quoted:
Thanks for your help Flash and others. My die is a crimp and seat combo, but I'm not using the crimp function on the seating die. After the seating die the freshly seated bullet goes through the lee FCD die. I'll try a bigger flare and report back my findings. Also, are your reloads crimped enough where no amount of thumb on bullet on top of bench will move the bullet? How much post sizing are you feeling when you push your round into the FCD ? I'm not saying this is happening but: If your post sizing ring is somehow post sizing your bullet it "could" be reducing your neck tension. There is only 2 ways this could be happening. 1) Your brass wall thickness is more than normal. 2) Your FCD's post sizing ring is out of spec (too small). Try pushing a bullet down into a casing that hasn't went through the FCD yet. Trust me, the lack of crimp, or more accurately stated, the lack of not removing the mouth flare, which is the only true job of the taper crimp die, will not negatively effect how well the bullet is being held. Motor |
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Quoted:
I have never used the FCD as I am a old fart who uses old school methods if they work . On 45 ACP I have always used taper crimp. Now with 45acp and plated bullets you need a careful hand adjusting as the plated bullets are actually fairly soft Wow how did I not see that? That would be reason #3. You should NOT use the FCD with plated bullets. If the OP does what I suggested (try his bench test on a round that did not go through the FCD) I will be surprised if he still has neck tension issues. I just re-read his OP and see that he IS using 230gr plated bullets. Motor BTW: Don't be afraid to seat and crimp your 45acp ammo in one operation. You will not squeeze the bullet while it's being seated. How can you if you are only removing the mouth flare? I highly suggest you try some without the FCD especially if you are using plated bullets. If you would like an easy walk through on how to set up your seat/crimp die for one shot operation just let me know I'll be glad to walk you through it. It's actually pretty easy. I can usually do it myself even with roll crimp first attempt. For taper crimp first attempt is a sure thing. |
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Quoted:
why should you not use a FCD with plated bullets? Because many of them are soft and if the FCD sizes the bullet down inside the casing it will reduce the neck tension. You will not even know its happening because the brass springs back but the soft bullet can not. This CAN happen. It all depends on how all the "fits" come together. If your bullet diameter plus the case wall thickness adds up to more than the inside diameter of your FCD you could have this problem. Many people on the cast bullet forum actually buy the FCD because it's inexpensive and break out the post sizing ring. Motor |
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Quoted: Because many of them are soft and if the FCD sizes the bullet down inside the casing it will reduce the neck tension. You will not even know its happening because the brass springs back but the soft bullet can not. This CAN happen. It all depends on how all the "fits" come together. If your bullet diameter plus the case wall thickness adds up to more than the inside diameter of your FCD you could have this problem. Many people on the cast bullet forum actually buy the FCD because it's inexpensive and break out the post sizing ring. Motor Quoted: Quoted: why should you not use a FCD with plated bullets? Because many of them are soft and if the FCD sizes the bullet down inside the casing it will reduce the neck tension. You will not even know its happening because the brass springs back but the soft bullet can not. This CAN happen. It all depends on how all the "fits" come together. If your bullet diameter plus the case wall thickness adds up to more than the inside diameter of your FCD you could have this problem. Many people on the cast bullet forum actually buy the FCD because it's inexpensive and break out the post sizing ring. Motor |
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Many folks think a plated bullet is just a cast bullet that has been plated. Not so .
For the most part while the surface of the plating is hard it is thin and has no strength to speak of and the lead under the plating is pretty soft. Grab three bullets of the same caliber and roughly the same weight , one each of jacketed , plated and cast and give them each a squeeze with a regular pair of pliers . the plated will deform much easier than the cast and jacketed . Taper crimp for .380 , 9mm and 45 ACP (I don't mess with 40) roll crimp for revolver calibers . Likely isn't the only way to go but it has worked well for me . One exception was a 9mm SP101 (Ruger snubby) that had setback problems with most any reload I tried in it . I had bought it thinking that with the full moon clips I could do fast reloads in snub gun plate shoots but the setback problem was constant .Soon after I found a S&W 686 that was a much better gun for the snubby shoots . bigger grip , better sights and would load pretty good with saffarie land comp speedloaders . |
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Quoted: why should you not use a FCD with plated bullets? I use a FCD with cast and plated bullets. But you have to adjust it correctly. The instructions that come with the die never worked for me. With seated bullet in case to be crimped, press handle all the way down (top of stroke), I slowly lower die until I feel it touching the case. Tighten lock nut. I make my own locknut and this is where I solved the problem other people have. Die comes with a nut that doesn't lock and when die moves it changes adjustment. Install a locknut. Hornaday's are the best. So after locknut is tight to press, the top of die is adjusted for the amount of crimp you want. |
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This has been very helpful! I still need to load up a few rounds and take them for a test drive, but I think this mystery is solved.
I increased my flair to .480 and seated a bullet without the Lee FCD. I performed the bench-thumb press test and I pushed until my hand hurt and couldnt make it budge. Even flipped the bullet over and used the case head as a bigger surface to push on. Then out of curiosity I ran that bullet through the Lee FCD. Performed the push test again and no budge. By looking at each variable independently I think I can conclude that the Lee FCD was not causing the problem and that not using enough flare was indeed the issue. Based on what Motor said about the Lee FCD, my best guess is that I was experiencing this problem with my seater die. Seater die squeezed bullet into place, brass bounced back and soft bullet stayed small. I'll head back to the range with my caliper and see if I have completely eliminated the setback problem I was experiencing. Based on the bench-thumb press test I think the problem is resolved. I'll measure some bullets with the use of the Lee FCD and some without. At the very least I'll be able to confirm if the Lee FCD does more harm than good with plated bullets. |
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Agreed.
But you should also measure the inside diameter of your FCD and compare that measurement to the diameter of your components or at least the diameter of a case with a bullet seated in it. FCDs are manufactured goods just like any other and are subject to tolerances and of course quality control. You need to measure it. If you are using jacketed bullets I doubt that you would ever have any problems unless you get a bad one. Just remember that the FCD has a carbide ring in it just like a carbide sizing die has.and it can under the right conditions size your bullets down within the casing and there is no amount of adjusting that will correct it if it is. Motor |
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