Hmmm.  Duly noted.  

On winter ops, yeah I'm thinking about covers in the near term, and then possibly some short runs of different camos, such as artic or arid.

Oh yeah, covers would be nice. Multicam Alpine is just pure win up in Michigan during the winter.

Hey man I hear ya; just moved to SD and I want some snow camo goodness myself.

Otte Gear with .mil discount for the over-whites and gaiters

I am going to do the Norwegian ruck march this year. Would the CF2 do well with jogging? The march is light weight at only 24 lbs, but you need to average something like a 14 minute mile which is a little to fast to walk for 18 miles.

Think I would be able to get weight synched down and not flop all over with this pack? Or is it just about packing correctly so it won’t move around on me a ton?

I have a mystery ranch Pintler that I’ve been using for practice but whenever I jog that thing moves all over.

Well this depends on entirely the weight being humped.  If that's 25 lbs dry or wet?  That might make some difference in my choice.  But if a good internal is bouncing all over the place, then that might be a clue that something else might be required.  In this case, yeah a CF 2 might be a good choice, but I would also add this pack was made to work in conjunction with a belt kit.  So if your goal is to minimize bounce, ideally I would run a belt kit to anchor the bottom of the ruck in place.  However we are now adding weight and complexity to the deal, which may not be required for a 25-lb load.  I normally shoot for 35 lb ruck, and 15 lbs in the belt kit.  So if this is too heavy then we can look at other stuff.

For the load you need to carry, I'd say you want the smallest full feature ruck you could find.  Full feature means a decent suspension and frame to carry everything and not beat you to death.

Now I am diagnosing from the internet, so bear with me.  But it sounds like you need to take a hard look at load packing and stabilization.  I've done a few races which had a load-bearing category in them.  I saw all manner of packs being used; some really well, others not so much.  The most common issue was seeing the weight, in a big ball, swinging back n forth on the bottom of the ruck.  So the first thing I would say is pack actual, usable kit, as your ballast, vs weights or sand bags, etc.  In this manner you can cinch up the weight, up close to your back, vs it piling up at the bottom and creating a pendulum affect as you move.   For example, a 3L water bladder up against the back wall of the ruck.  Then maybe a food bag, possibly even a small cook stove, sitting in the small of your back.  Then additional clothing layers, a boo-boo kit, etc. You can then make the weight requirement, with actual shit you can use, and it packs up in a manner that can be totally cinched down to avoid all that sway.  For example, when I crossed the finish line, I'd pull off to the side, get some warm layers on, get a hot brew up, and take a load off- all without having to get back to the vehicle or whatever.  I'm sure many runners were like, oh look at that homeless dude, cheering on the race.  

When we were designing the CF2, this was something we were actually addressing.  That is why we include two hanks of bungee, which can be woven through the LTAS webbing on the sides, and used to further cinch up the weight in the pack (and/or throw in light wind and rain layers).  That's because we run with these things and know of the pain of which you speak.  So yeah, take a hard look at what you're carrying, how you pack it, and what your pack has to cinch it up and stabilize it.  

Also to add, I use the sternum strap to tighten up the shoulder straps, creating a "basket" of sorts around my upper torso, vs just depending on each shoulder to tighten up independently.  This will drastically reduce the bounce.  Especially if the weight is packed and secured up against your back (and ideally about level between your shoulder blades).  Any weight that is just dangling down by the small of your back is gonna be an issue, regardless of what ruck you use.

It is 25 lbs dry. I think that my main issue is just the packing element like you said. I for sure am getting a sort of pendulum effect while running.

I did end up ordering one. I only have coyote packs and wanted something in multicam anyways, plus they were on sale! Even if it is all just a me packing problem, I am still happy to snag one. Thanks for taking the time to respond!

Hey for sure and I know you can't go wrong with it, just didn't want to say oh you have to buy it, and everyone else sucks.  We all know that's bullshit.  Any pack will do, if you will do.  But time and money permitting you can "improve your position".  

With the CF2, we took the prototypes and ran the shit out of them.  One guy even did Stairmaster workouts with it.  So we know it's GTG when loaded up and moving fast.  I took mine out today for a weighted 3 mile run.  It's packed and cinched up tight.  The shoulder straps are cinched down and the sternum strap tightened to create a harness around your chest.  As our Canuck friends from Drop Zone used to say: "Just add guts".

I am finding it is my new favorite pack.  And Hawkeye pestered me for months to make one.  I'm glad we did!

I got my CF2 in and it is legit perfect. I can strap it down to myself and get no side to side sway at all. I legit had no clue running with a pack could be that comfortable. Super happy with the purchase.

Right on my brother; glad you like it.  There are all sorts of choices out there.  We make what we think works the best for the crazy shit we do; it's always good to get validation back.

Going to pick myself up a DZ Rig at the end of this month and I'm excited to integrate it with the CF2 and see how well it sits on the belt kit and how clipping it into the belt kit instead of using the hip pad works out in terms of stabilization. Really like the idea of spreading the weight between belt kit and pack.  I'm also curiosu to see how nicely the DZ rig will play with my chest rig (Citadel Defense Specter).  

For sure, I am hoping you like everything.  I worked with prototype Diz rigs and U_Dub's chest rigs quite a bit.  When it's cold enough (no problem for you) I prefer a separate platform for a radio and blow out/TQ.  Not to mention fast reloads.  And maybe a wee bit of counter-balance.  

With a CF2 and a Diz rig w/ tranny straps, you have to really fine-tune the ride, just like a good internal pack.  You now have upper and lower stab straps, which must be tweaked to get the desired effect.  

You also have to adjust the torso height to be in the mid-range of what you need, to shift weight between shoulders and hips.  For example, let's say you need a 17" lumbar measurement (between your shoulders and your waist).  You want to adjust the shoulder yoke as close to this as possible, so the upper and lower stab straps can fine tune that adjustment, by pulling some weight up or down.  

So to drill down further, it's the top center of the yoke (where it lays against your neck) to the bottom of the frame.  I use a yard stick or tape measure to lay this in.  In a pinch, just use a piece of paracord.  

This is your optimum set up for use as a short back ruck with a belt kit.  As you can readily see, the ALICE does not have this feature.  You simply attach the straps to the frame top, and that's all you get.  To adjust lumbar height, you can only tighten/loosen the shoulder straps.  I am hoping you realize why this is not optimal.  To adjust down, you have to run loose.  To adjust up, you have to run too tight.  Unless the ALICE frame is just the perfect lumbar height, you are in for a miserable day.  If you are too loose, the weight sways around your waist; if you are too tight, your arms will go numb.  

Crossfire should put out some photo instructions on their website or have one of their social media influencers do a video on how to optimally integrate the DZ Rig with their Packs.  

This is true and if they don't soon, you have to see my ugly mug do it.  

Pretty sure I just saw a video that shows the small little photo pamphlet that comes with the USMC TAPS.  Would probably be a good jump off point.

Now that my hair is going white if I have to do it people will wonder why an old man is kitting up.

That said, at 46 I can still toss around guys in their 20's no problem when I roll at BJJ, but with the young guys these days I don't feel like that's too much to brag about.

Because someone has to.  That's why.

Amen brother.

Hawkeye is so much more purtier than me.  

I demand a hot australian girl to do all the modeling and instructions for the packs and such.  Make sure she has a good australian accent.  

Fucking marketing GENIUS!!

She doesn't even have to be all skimpy dressed or anything.  Just cute and a good personality.  And the australian accent.  

Yeah that's why we like him.  I would wear a jockstrap with barbed-wire suspenders for you guys (looking at you, Cpl Graffunder), but I understand if you want different look.  

Only if the jockstrap is leather.  Red leather.

Seems to be a lot of knowledgeable guys with the DZ and other LBE in this thread. If it came down to these two rigs, which one would you spend the money on. Crossfire DZ or Nixie Works rig?

Crossfire.

And that's not a cut on Nixieworks.  If I were in the actual jungle or a hardcore swampy area where it's not going to get cold at night, even in the winter, I'd consider the Nixieworks.  You might be able to get away not running a pack at all with their setup.

The Crossfire pack has a couple things going for it over the Nixieworks.  The big one is that the Nixieworks buttpack, being so 'tall' makes it harder to successfully run packs, and cuts down on the number of packs that will work at all.  The Crossfire rig let's the pack ride on the 'shelf' made up of the pouches in the back.

The other thing is the pouches are completely closeable - as in, the top flap has 3 sides, not just 1 side with open areas that let stuff get into the mag pouch.

There are a bunch of other stuff, pros and cons to both of them.  

The Nixieworks is a pretty decent system and the guys who make it seem to be cool guys. I just personally think the taller buttpack isn't the best option.  Which is what kept me from buying a rig from them since they first came out.

Note that I do not have a Nixieworks rig, I'm going by design alone.  Thus why I'm not saying anything about  'it's more comfortable than.....' type stuff.

To also be transparent, I do OEM work for Crossfire and I make my own design of belt kit sets.  None of that is coming into play with my thoughts.

I'd love to have the Nixieworks guys come join the beltkit party on here btw.  

On a side note, the link below will send you to the thread on this subforum titled 'Velocity Systems Jungle Kit' that covers ALOT of ground on belt kits in general, including the Nixieworks and Crossfire ones.  It wanders a bit, but it's worth reading through if you are getting into belt kit.

https://www.ar15.com/forums/Armory/Velocity-Systems-Jungle-Kit/10-536943/

Awesome! I appreciate the valuable input and information given here. That is my turn off as well is pack compatibility. I think the huge plus side for me with the CF rig is the fact it comes with the pouches, and not an optional add-on at an even higher cost. Nothing against that, but I would prefer a buy one item, get it all kind of deal.

I may just have to pick up a DZ rig when the ranger green ones come back instock in my size.

Nixieworks does that to let you pick which pouches you want to go on there - they do sell the mag pouches too.  British style belt kit, the British dudes do funky things with what pouches they put on there where the mag pouches go.  IE, they don't do double mag pouches on both sides alot of the time.

It's just another way of doing it.

What size are you wanting to get in RG?

I think this really comes down to you, and how you plan on patrolling.  If we examine the lightfighter concept, the Nixieworks rig is actually closer to the mark.  The whole point being to travel as light as possible, even if this means some discomfort.  So if you are going out on short-range patrols, where you can carry everything you need, for up to 48 hours, possibly even longer, then a Nixieworks design makes a lot of sense.  

If on the other hand, you need to do longer range patrols, which requires additional supplies, then the Diz rig comes into play, as it is built to work in conjunction with a rucksack, whatever size you might require.  And once the ruck is dropped in a patrol base, the Diz rig now works very well for all day patrol, and even over-night if required.  The same stuff you might carry in the extended buttpack on the Nixieworks rig, now goes into sustainments and a "bum" roll on top of them.  

So they will both do the short range patrol work; but the Diz rig will also integrate with your rucksack for longer stuff.   That's the main difference in my eyes; either one will work extremely well; it just depends on what you're up to.

My main focus was to make a belt kit that would work with any rucksack, to scale up or down as required for your mission.  I think the Nixieworks is more tightly focused for a specific mission, where a ruck is not required.  Or to be fair, the buttpack could be scrunched or tied down, and a ruck thrown on top of it.  

Just like I'm not going to sit here and say you have to use a CF rucksack, I certainly won't say you have to use a Diz rig.  But I think they are both pretty good.  

I just realized it was an auto correct typo about the mag pouches. I know they are optional but I wish it came with it instead of adding an extra cost on top of a rig that is already up there in price. By the time you add everything we are knocking on $500ish territory if not more.


I’m looking for a  M/L. They currently are out of stock, I reached out via message to see when they may be back instock.

Yup.  Clarified what I was trying to say a bit.

That's just how much it costs them.  I charge about the same for a full set of belt kit.  Making this kind of gear isn't cheap.  I'll just straight up tell you, they are not marking their rigs up a whole bunch.

Oh I completely understand. But for the price it’s easier to chew on the DZ price tag versus the Nixie. Sure there isn’t a Buttpack or as many camo options, but I’d rather throw down money on kit that I can utilize packs I already have if the Nixie is super picky about what you can and can’t use over the DZ.

Yea.  That's why I suggest them for the best option for general purpose, off the shelf belt kit.  It's good, solid stuff that works.

If you ever decide to upgrade down the road to something with a full buttpack, yell at me.  That's my bread and butter.  But I'd suggest starting with the Crossfire for the reasons you pointed out.

I like this idea.

In a green and gold bikini.  

On pricing.  We have beat this to death, but, there's a good reason CF makes their kit in Vietnam.  Along with most other outdoor gear mfg's.  If you make something in this country, the price will reflect that fact.  We all know the pros and cons here; enough said.  Just to say if CF needed to make a Berry-compliant production run (looking at you Marnsdorff), these rigs would cost just as much, if not more than Nixieworks.  

I used to say fuck Vietnam, China, etc. and buy American.  I won't go into all that either, just to say I now source things I need from wherever I need to go, to get whatever I need to have.  So is it ironic that I have been designing and making this stuff for over 40 years, and when I finally get a design produced, it's made in Vietnam?  For sure.  That being said, their quality is actually pretty impressive.  

And yeah for sure, I'd love to see Nixieworks jump in here and add to the conversation.

I use the DG3 on a Norwegian ruck.  It worked for me.

Interesting; love to hear the thinking behind that.  What lumbar measurement are we talking about here?  We've worked with several "out-liers" who needed a different size than what we have.  Ideally, I'd like to explore getting a "3-D" printed frame, which could be infinitely adjustable.  

We made a longer ruck, designed for use with a full padded waist belt, w/load-carrying vests, but never went into general production.   This was for artic warfare, where they needed to carry heavy loads, and have sides clear for ski pole swings.  I am again looking at this concept this winter.  

There is a top 1% of our customers who are carrying extremely heavy loads and might need slightly different kit.  The new CF4 is being developed with this in mind.

Crossfire are very good to go.

It's also works well on your face and exposed skin to minimize the effects of pepper/bear spray.

I've already been talking to the other guys about doing some special projects here in the USA @Diz.  I'm not going to say what publicly, but I think yall will like it.

And yea, if the Crossfire kits were made here, they would be alot more.  For an idea, the average pay per hour in Vietnam for a skilled sewing person sewing this stuff is something like $2.60 / hour.  That is why US made gear is $$$$$$$.

I don't have a problem with gear being made overseas, as long as companies are upfront about it and it's well made (which Crossfire's stuff is)  Heck, even a two-tiered system - foreign made commercial stuff with basic options and USA made lines, is probably a totally viable way to go until the USA can completely re-build it's industrial base and become competitive again.

Most of the 3d printed polymers aren't up to the stresses yet.

Unfortunately so.  But I am seeing some amazing things in the custom automotive industry that are getting close.

I'm looking at interest at the 3d printed metal stuff that's starting to come out.

So, I've been rucking and have had one camping trip, hopefully going to get a second here next week with the CF2 now.  It's a great ergonomic pack and I like that the half loaves are so easy to take off and put back on, because it really makes it quick to dump weight off the ruck for exercise purposes and then just slap those pouches back on if you want to add the weight.  Much, much more efficient and more time saving than having to weave MOLLE.  

It's a really great summer ruck for when you don't need a tent or a ton of clothing layers or a huge winter sleeping bag set-up.   I think it's a great place for a civilian to start off with in terms of size too, because let's face it the bulk of most civilians are hiking and camping in the late spring, summer, and early fall time frames where I think this pack really does well.  It's also a real good pack for being able to move quickly with and maintain some agility, not sure what their official name is, but it has these straps with handles that you can pull down as you shuffle quickly with the pack on and it really help stabilize it when you've got to get a faster pace going.   The size of the pack even with pouches on its side and fully loaded still is easy to get through interior doors with as well, so I can see this being a great pack for anyone that thought they might have to enter and exit buildings with a pack on.  

Everything adjusts really well, nothing pinches or rubs, and honestly I haven't had to adjust the pack on its frame as it came set-up perfectly for me from the factory.

I was running an H-Harness chest rig under the CF2 and there hasn't been any issues with that, but I just purchased a Lunar Concepts HX Harness that came in just a few days ago and I'm going to see how that works in conjunction with it.  I have NOT yet done anything significantly athletic (just walked around with it in my yard and house really) or miles wise with my FCPC in combination with the CF2, but once the weather isn't in the 90's around here I'll try that out.

Hopefully we get the DG16 redesign to the new CF soon, because I think that for me would sit in a good size for colder weather stuff.  

Watching this thread, as I'm still trying to make my DG3 be my '4 season all purpose' pack

Ha, ha yeah I've been trying to do that as well.  Just depends.  But I think up north you're gonna need more Liters.

Yea I might.  But I've invested pretty hard over the years into lighter weight, more compact gear - specifically the big one is I went and bought a gucci Western Mountaineering down winter sleeping bag, which is SIGNIFICANTLY going to cut down on my space used for my sleep system.  Probably cut my packing size for that bag in half.

I'm thinking about fabbing up a bigger lid to gain a little room vertically too.  Combine all that with a couple small pouches on the sides and a minimalist assault pack attached on the back I think I can deal with the DG3.  My thru hiking backpack was smaller than the DG3 is stock.

If this doesn't work out, I'm probably going to just fab up a modified DG3 pack, cutting out some of the stuff I don't use (the zipper for instance, even when I had my Mystery Ranch bags, I never used the center zipper) and making it slightly taller and a few other select changes.  Throw that on the frame.   But I think I can get away using the stock DG3, I really like the pack overall.