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Posted: 11/18/2002 6:21:17 AM EDT
| I may not fully understand this, so please explain. Why would anybody want a Double Action Only pistol? Doesn't it make it so the trigger pull is harder because it has to pull back the spring every time? Doesn't a harder trigger pull make the pistol less accurate? What are the benefits of DAO. Sorry if this is a dumb question, but it wasn't explained very well to me at the store. |
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The gun manufacturers seem to think that people who have only ever shot double action revolvers, (which is a very large segment of the hangun owning population), transition better to a DA because all they have to do is pull the trigger, just like their old revolver. To this day, double action revolvers are pushed on people who are buying their first and likely only handgun for self defense. These people rarely shoot, and it's thought the simplicity of operation makes it ideally suited for newbies. I see more dealers pushing DA pistols now though for the same reason. |
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I think Twire has the main reason down. It is another built-in lawyer. Consistant trigger pull is an issue for SA/DA pistols but anyone wanting a better trigger will probably go for a SAO pistol anyway. I hear Mossberg even makes a DAO pump shotgun now... Insanity! 
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| I was shown a DAO pistol carried by a gunsmith in his shop--his conversion, with 12# pull. I asked why he would possibly ruin a good pistol like that. He said it was strictly for liability, so he could not be accused by a criminal's lawyer of his firing accidentally in a defensive shoot. |
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My guess is DAO only started with police departments for silly concerns about liability. It does give the same (crappy) trigger pull each time though. Didn't some police departments used to cut the burr off of officers' revolvers so the couldn't single action cock them and then accidently plug someone? |
| I thought a big advantage was the ability to shoot inside a pocket. No chance whatsoever of AD. No way hammer could be blocked. Seems to me DAO would be even more foolproof than a regular revolver. Most defensive shootings occur at very close range. What's so bad about them again? They are not for target shooting, but for a neverfail defense weapon I don't see how they could be beat. |
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My reply was not meant to disuade. I carry a Taurus PT111 DAO in my pocket when I don't suit up in the whole carry rig. I think you have to define the intended purpose. Like the earlier post said, for a no fail, deliberate trigger pull, get off me, self defense gun, DAO is fine. Wouldn't want to take a 10meter head shot with one, but great pocket gun. |
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DAO is strictly for liability issues. PROOF:Who would want DAO if there were no lawyers making an issue of a trigger pull? I have to learn a whole new technique just to keep from shooting low and left with my Glock. Glock is striker fired so DAO is inherent to the system. I cant imagine the training involved to be accurate with a DAO auto thats not striker fired! Making any full sized auto DAO is just silly. I never bought into the "consistent trigger pull" ideology. I think its the same rationalization that people use to shrug off the harassing assault on our rights to have more than 10 rounds in a magazine. Every time I hear a gun owner say "if you need more than 10 rounds to do the job, blah blah blah....", it makes me sick. I patiently explain to them that that statement never came up before the 94 ban, and that they're rationalizing illegal laws with that statement! Getting a DAO for "consistent trigger pull" is another rationalization to appease the liability issue. 
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I agree with you on that point. The original Walther P99's(Not the quick-action) didn't require you to rack the slide before you can pull the trigger, true DAO; the P99QA(like the Glocks) does require to rack the slide before you can pull the trigger. True DAO revolvers like the non-exposed hammer S&W 640 Centennial does not require you to cock the hammer before you can fire a round, that is true DAO. |
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I have a Ruger P94DAO. It is nice. The trigger pull is slick!!! There is no de-cocker or safety to mess with. The gun's exterior is smooth because it lacks the safety/decocker lever. I can rapid fire 18+1 (flush-fit magazine) or 15+1 (factory magazine) rounds into a metal target measuring about 4" wide x 12" tall at 10 yards away. |
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DAO isn't that bad. For example, take a double-action pistol, like the Ruger P94. Pull the trigger in DA mode-- its a bitch! Try it in the same gun for DAO-- smooth and much lighter. Also-- not safety or decocker is in the way... Basically, they targeted police departments to get people off of revolvers, who were used to the revolver trigger pull... H&K makes a nice trigger mod for the compacts-- mainly for border patrol. Check it out-- after you champer the round, its a long smooth pull, but its not like the traditional heavy DA trigger pull... |
Every DAO trigger I have seen does NOT have a 12-15lb trigger. It more like 6 or 7, depending on the manufacturer... |
Has nothing to do with liability. It has to do with rookie cops who just learned how to use a revolver. They fire one shot, they may not be used to the SA mode, and bump the trigger while holding a perp on the ground a gunpoint. Its really a saftey issue, depending on how the gun is used. With a SA/DA, if I fire at you (in either mode), you give up, and I am holding you on the ground at gunpoint, and I flinch while putting the cuffs on you... OOOPS... dead/wounded bad guy.... bad situation for a cop, especially a rookie. |
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Hey Aimless, do I recall correctly that you're a lawyer? Can you clear up this question of liability for me? If an ordinary fellow like me intentionally shoots somebody who is threatening my life, why would anybody care what kind of trigger I have? I'm sure as heck not going to claim that it was a negligent discharge; why would anybody else? Thanks, Confused In Cleveland
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I agree with you-if he was threatening you and you plug him-tough shit for him no liability for you, self defense. What I was referring to in my post was police departments (really the city/county/state that controls the police dept) being sued because a police officer allegedly negligently shot someone. Then the plaintiff's lawyer could argue that his client was injured because the police department issued a pistol that could be handcocked. This allowed the police officer to handcock the pistol, which he then negligently discharged into the plaintiff. If the pistol had been DAO then the police officer might not have negligently discharged the pistol because of the heavier trigger pull. I seem to remember that years ago the NYPD (??) had a problem with officers frequently hand cocking their double action revolvers (don't quote me on this as I read this many many years ago and could talking out my you know what). The officer felt this allowed a faster first shot, but it could also lead to accidently shooting a person during a search or while "covering" them. To avoid these situations departments issued or manufacturers started selling spurless hammered revolvers. I guess the most modern incarnation of this is the self firing glock that gets trotted out frequently when an police officer accidently shoots someone. Strangely I don't remember seeing anything about this when a police officer in Rochester (?) shot a guy accidently while clearing out a crack house. I heard he just stumbled so I assume he had the trigger in the finger housing. I guess because the hammer is not visible in a shotgun people don't think of it as being as dangerous. I think I have seen a "double action only" police shotgun for sale though I don't remember who the manufacturer was. Did I answer the question? |
I'm not a lawyer, but its my personal opinion, that the opposing side would probably go over the offending gun with a fine-toothed comb, such as looking for hair-trigger, slippery "ivory" grips, etc. I don't know if you know it, but an Orange County(Disneyland) grandfather was recently convicted of accidently shooting a teenager that was stealing a halloween pumkim in the guy's yard. I saw the gun in a quick 1 sec shot from the TV, and it appears to be a S&W revolver. The defense claimed that the gun went off accidently during the confrontation and killed the teenager. My take on it is that, the grandfather probably cocked the gun in single-action mode and in the insuing confrontation due to adrenline rush, probably pulled the trigger accidently. The grandfather is now in prison for manslaughter. |
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No AD, and if dropped it won't go bang. As for my personal experience with accuracy...At 7 yards, I have no problem hitting the target. At 15 yards...it is very difficult to hit the target. I suspect the compact-size may also contribute to lack of accuracy in that it is harder to get a firm grip on. I keep mine loaded with a round in the chamber. All I have to do if SHTF is draw and pull the trigger. At least on mine, if I hit a dud, I just pull the trigger a second time... It has no safety, no de-cocker, only part I have to worry about operating when loaded is the trigger. Personally, I prefer DA/SA...as it allows me to chose. The transition after the first shot is odd at first, but you will get used to it. When packing I would definitely keep any DA/SA decocked... |
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Don't know... Seems kind of odd (although my only experience with DA is deciding not to manually cock my M-9, just to 'see how it feels'...) to have that heavy of a pull. The hammer-related comments don't fit, since DAO pistols can have them (just like a DA revolver), and many DA/SAs do too (allowing SA operation, fortunately). It seems that many of you associate DA and DA/SA with glock-style guns... Then again, my first gun was a Govt 1911, so I'm kind of used to SA pistols. Since you can't 'cock & lock' a M-9 (The bass-ackwards, push-up-to-fire 'safety' decocks the gun), I cock it when I pick it up rather than using DA. My only gripe about DA/SA is that I sometimes forget to take up the trigger-slack from the un-used DA mode before firing... |
| My Colt Officers model is accurate enough to hit a Freon tank reliably at 50 yards. Suits me. A 1911 is safer when cocked and locked than any other way except empty chamber. I don't care for decockers myself nor do I like Glocks. Good guns, just not my cup of tea. A friend has HKs. Very accurate but I still like my 1911, CZ and Witness. None are DAO. |
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DAO was a response for LE agencies, primarily ones who were too lazy or not competent enough to have good training and safe weapons handling. It was a tech response to "accidental" discharges, that were primarily training issues. It was also a way to get reluctant police administrators to agree to a switch from DA revolvers to autos. I personally detest DAO triggr pulls, and most of them are pretty awful. One of our detectives, however, just got a Para Ordnance LDA, a compact DAO high-capacity 1911, and the trigger pull on that one is absolutely SWEET. He got it because he did not feel safe carrying "cocked and locked," and he wanted a weapon tha would go bang as soon as he manipulated the trigger, without having to deal with a manual safety. |
More or less. I understand the concern of a police department over accidental shootings. (I mean, nobody wants a negligent discharge, police or otherwise.) I was just confused by armchair lawyers saying that you shouldn't put a 3.5# connector on a Glock because of you could be sued should you ever have to shoot somebody. Sounds bogus to me; the only danger is that the adrenaline makes the 3.5# seem like about 1oz and you accidently shoot someone. And that is fairly easily avoided by proper trigger discipline. |
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Guardian, if a weapon is striker or hammer fired does not for the most part have anything to do with trigger pull. A glock is striker fired and can have as little as 3.5 or as much as an 8 pound trigger pull. DAO will always have more trigger pull than a SA/DA revolver, but has nothing to do with a striker. Striker - pulling the trigger causes what is basically a heavy spring propeled firing pin into the primer. Strikers are in line with the barrel of the gun and do not have a hammer. Generally these weapons will have longer trigger pulls than revolvers but weight can vary. Hammer - guns use a hammer propeled by a spring to hit a firing pin which then hits the primer. There are different types of hammer actions. SAO - this type of gun the hammer must be handcocked before every pull of the trigger. Cowboy guns were like this. Very short trigger travel and weight after weapon is cocked. SA/DA - this type allows the user to fire the gun by simply pulling the trigger but retains the ability to be hand cocked. If weapon is not cocked then trigger pull is long and heavy, if the hammer is cocked then trigger pull is light and short. DAO - these guns may only be fired by pulling the trigger, the hammer can not be handcocked. Trigger pull is long and weight can vary, trigger pull does not "need" to be 15 pounds. |
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