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Posted: 12/30/2008 9:32:10 AM EDT
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I havn't been into guns all that long, 5 years or so and handloading even less.
The local gun shop had some Remington Golden Saber ammo on sale relatively cheap in 9mm+P and .45 auto +P so I bought some to compare as far as muzzel blast to my own self defense handloads. The shop's pistol range target area is well it but the shooting stations are dimly lit (I bring a flashlight). When I fired the pricey Golden Saber from a 5" barreled pistols it produced a blinding fireball. Do you want a large muzzel blast from self def. ammo? Then I fired some of my handloads that were loaded with Hodgdon Universal to the maximum published amount of powder, I think it was 6.0 grain in a .45 auto case with a CCI 300 primers. Muzzel blast flash was minimul. This got me interested in building full power self defense load in 3 calibers: 9mm Luger fired from a 4 3/4 inch barrel, .45 Auto fired from a 5" barreled 1911A1 that feeds all HPs I have tried thus far. .38 Special (+P ok but not .357 magnum) fired from a 3 inch barreled revolver which is my primary house gun. How to start? Well, I think I need to decide a few things like calibers and barrel lengths as listed above. Will the load need to be a FULL POWER load? Is a full power load best for this application? I'm sure I will need a top quality, probably a 'bonded' hollow point bullet. From shooting hollow points into water jugs and wet news print 'I' have so far found the Speer Gold Dot bullet to perform the best in the area of expansion and jacket retention when pushed with a full house factory load load. Then I'll need a powder that will push the bullet fast enuff to expand it yet not produce a blinding muzzel flash and of course be safe. I have tried just 2 different pistol powders ie. TiteGroup and Universal (not Clays). What powder pushes the above calibers to their highest velocity? How about.... Blue Dot for 124gr 9mmLuger, and VihtaVuori 3N37 or Power Pistol for 130gr. .38 Special and Blue Dot and Power Pistol for 200 to 230 gr .45 Auto? Bullets, I like the Speer Gold Dot but are they available as a component? Help me out here. Thanks For Your Time |
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Just load up a quality hollowpoint with a charge of powder that:
1. You can shoot well 2. Doesn't cause overpressure signs 3. Reliably cycles your weapon That's all you need. It doesn't need to be a max load. I load .45ACP SD rounds with Speer Gold Dot HP's and Accurate #5 and #7. Work them up like you would any other load until you find your sweet spot. |
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not sure if it really means anything, but i saw a show where Massad Ayoob (sp?) said that using handloads for self-defence can be a bad idea, because "you literally manufactured the evidence."
it was suggested to have a small amount of factory ammo for self-defence, and to keep the box for the lot number. Also to sign and date the inside of the box, with the model of firearm. then handload 'copies' of your factory ammo to use for training. this made me think about using factory ammo for self-defence, and handload for practice. |
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Quoted:
not sure if it really means anything, but i saw a show where Massad Ayoob (sp?) said that using handloads for self-defence can be a bad idea, because "you literally manufactured the evidence." it was suggested to have a small amount of factory ammo for self-defence, and to keep the box for the lot number. Also to sign and date the inside of the box, with the model of firearm. then handload 'copies' of your factory ammo to use for training. this made me think about using factory ammo for self-defence, and handload for practice. This stuff gets thrown around, but I've never seen any empirical evidence, i.e. case law that suggests there is any additional liability introduced when handloaded ammunition is used in a self defense shooting. |
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I just started reloading but I've been carrying for a long time. Keep in mind for a lot of the hollowpoints to function reliably on people in all situations they need to be on the hotter side of things. Anything will expand in a water jug. Cover ballistic gel with a bunch of layers of denim and throw a bone in there and you'll get very different results. I just found that out with lightly loaded Hornandy 230g XTP's. 4.8 grains of TireGroup spits them out at ~710 fps ( at 15') they did not expand significantly in a clothed gel block at 50'. Some didn't expand at all. Hot ones (850+) did everytime.
So, load 'em as hot as you can shoot accurately. Or just plan to hit him a lot! Either way works I guess. Personally, my carry ammo will probably always be the expensive high-end commercial stuff. Hyrdashocks/SXT's/etc where they've done all the testing already.... |
Gold dots in factory ammo perform very well in almost all calibers. That is what I choose in 38 (135gr +P), 9mm for the wifes Khar (Merry Christmas, 124gr +P), and I am planning on getting some for my 40 when my stash of 180gr Ranger LE gets low, and same for my 45 before too long, or I may just order the bullets as components and load my own. I really like Gold Dots. Down the line I will get them as components for all my SD pistol calibers to reload so I can shoot what I carry.
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| I don't reload for self-defense. There may not be any case law that suggests there is a difference with reloads but I don't want to be the one hoping that the jury sees it that way. Load some practice loads that are similar and shoot those, use the factory stuff when you carry. |
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If you follow Ayoob's rationalle for not using handloads, you should not defend yourself period, for anything you do or say will be used to your detriment in court.
According to Ayoob, the use of handloads for self defense will surely lead to your criminal conviction, even though said use of handloads is completely irrelevant to whether your use of deadly force was justified. The state's attorney will make you look like rambo on roid rage and will crucify you even though you acted lawfully. So next time some crackhead is raping your wife, just run away and call the police, for even thinking about handloads will surely land you in jail. If you're brave, though, find out what the local cops are using and get some of that. Then when the time comes, make sure you yell "Ayoob!!!" as you fire center of mass using the same sequence as the local cops are trained to fire. That way you can tell the jury about all the Ayoob articles you read and scenarios you anticipated, dreamt about, reinacted and/or planned for. Tell them you were doing what the local cops would have done if they were you. When they haul you to the funny farm, make sure you scream "Ayoob!!!" so that everyone knows who to blame. |
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Regarding the Golden Saber, in 45 ACP I load 6.0 grains Universal, 230 grain Golden Saber, and 1.235 OAL. This load works perfectly in all my 45s and that is WAY more important than muzzle flash, recoil and all the other 'tactical' stuff you read about.
Work up to a max or near max load. Make sure your OAL is good and provides reliable feeding. Forget about muzzle flash, throat erosion, etc. The loads are published on the Hodgdon website and others. Practice, practice, practice! |
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Quoted:
I would never use reloads for self defense. Imagine the prosecutor saying to the jury, "The defendant could not buy ammunition that was deadly enough, he had to make his own." Just buy some proven factory ammo and avoid the whole issue. Again, there is NO evidence of this. Pure BS speculation. |
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So if I sharpen my own stick, and then use it to defend myself, the jury will convict me?
Ayoob has one, just ONE, case to support his claim. In that case, the defendant was charged with murder after his wife offed herself with his gun. She shot herself in the head and the entrance wound lacked any powder stipling. The prosecutor argued that she could not have possibly shot herself because all point blank wounds feature powder stipling. The defendant argued he handloaded a target round using a fast burning powder which was completely consumed inside the barrel, hence no stipling. He hung the jury. Ayoob argues this is precisely why you don't want to use a handload for self defense  ... because your 148gr HBWC on top of 2.7 grains of Bullseye will not powder stiple your assailant thereby making it impossible to gauge distance.
Well, if you're stupid enough to load something like that for self defense, you deserve to go to prison. Any reasonable self defense load will powder stiple your assailant at point blank ranges. |
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Quoted:
I would never use reloads for self defense. Imagine the prosecutor saying to the jury, "The defendant could not buy ammunition that was deadly enough, he had to make his own." Just buy some proven factory ammo and avoid the whole issue. For the record, I did hear this in a Gunshop today. so it is confirmed truth 
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Quoted: I have been a student of the art of handloading for nearly 40 years, accounting for a few hundred thousand rounds of various and sundry calibers. In my experience I have assembled 2 (two) cartridges which would not fire, both were primer failures and both were from the same lot of Remington small rifle primers. In the course of using factory ammo, a lesser amount verses my handloads, I have encountered far more ammo related failures to fire, on the order of 15 or 20 rounds.What is the advantage to using reloads instead of factory ammo for self defense? Who should I trust with life? The large ammo manufacturer with an industry acceptable scrap rate, or me. In the past, I carried factory, but for the last 10 years or so I have carried my own. kind |
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To be covicted of anything based on the tool you used to commit it is rediculous.
It happens, and its a damn shame. To think of a criminal defense atourney who would take man from his family for doing what is right, is an act as audacious as murder. I would not hold it against anyone who packed razorblades and rat poison down their barrel to take out who needed what they got. I know what side everyone here is on, the right side...but this shit just gets under my skin like nothing else. ETA: Doesnt anyone know of any court cases where one was convicted based on/ or in conjunction with handloads or a particular type of ammunition? |
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To think of a criminal defense atourney who would take man from his family for doing what is right, is an act as audacious as murder. The Defense attorney is the one who will get you set free, it's the DA and/or prosecutor who will be trying to set you up for a long vacation! Only reason I nitpick is that there are alot of prosecutors who wouldn't want to be called Defense attorneys and vise versa. Watch out for the DA, and it's always a good idea to have a lawyer you know and trust on retainer. -Marty |
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Quoted:
ETA: Doesnt anyone know of any court cases where one was convicted based on/ or in conjunction with handloads or a particular type of ammunition? Not one. You know why? Because handloads have NOTHING to do with justification for the use of deadly force. Nothing. Either you are justified or you are not. If you are justified in killing someone, using a handload will not unjustify it. The best thing to do is to know the law in your state. Some states mandate you attempt to retreat before you shoot. Some states encourage you to kill the assailant and his momma too. You just have to know your place. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
ETA: Doesnt anyone know of any court cases where one was convicted based on/ or in conjunction with handloads or a particular type of ammunition? Not one. You know why? Because handloads have NOTHING to do with justification for the use of deadly force. Nothing. Either you are justified or you are not. If you are justified in killing someone, using a handload will not unjustify it. The best thing to do is to know the law in your state. Some states mandate you attempt to retreat before you shoot. Some states encourage you to kill the assailant and his momma too. You just have to know your place. What he said. |
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Quoted:
To be covicted of anything based on the tool you used to commit it is rediculous. It happens, and its a damn shame. To think of a criminal defense atourney who would take man from his family for doing what is right, is an act as audacious as murder. I would not hold it against anyone who packed razorblades and rat poison down their barrel to take out who needed what they got. I know what side everyone here is on, the right side...but this shit just gets under my skin like nothing else. ETA: Doesnt anyone know of any court cases where one was convicted based on/ or in conjunction with handloads or a particular type of ammunition? Google "Harold Fish". |
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